Your earlier post implied trophies, not just league titles.
Dele Alli is England's best young midfielder playing in Turkey
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Your earlier post implied trophies, not just league titles.
What stands out to me is his capability to score header goals as well. Obviously most can score header goals but he scored a few cracking ones. Becoming more and more complete.
Best to revisit this thread when this lad plays well consistently under genuine pressure.
Oh, semantics. Well played.
Until then, who do you think is England's best young midfielder?
I think that's a bargain. I'd hope we're at least bending his ear with £150k plus so you at least have to match it.
I think he'd be like Rakitic or Andre Gomes there. Decent but not a perfect fit. Rakitic was playing as a 10 or support striker his final year at Sevilla, and at Barca his job is to play as a CM on the right, filling the right wing spot when Messi comes inside but normally playing as a normal CM in a 4-3-3. Alli would probably be more dangerous making late runs into the box than Rakitic is, but not as good an overall midfielder.
Gomes is a smoother player so you figure Alli would give the ball away a bit more but I think he would definitely convert more chances and make more goals. He could also give them an aerial threat against packed in defences which they don't currently have. I don't think it would work perfectly, but it's not inconceivable.
For England, it would help, since the seemingly logical lineup for them going forward is probably Kane up top, Sterling and some wide player opposite, Dele Alli and Lallana in a Barcelona shaped midfield triangle with a holding player to allow them to press opponents and get into the box (Dier or Henderson or some other mediocre option). I guess they might try 3 at the back and it should suit Dele Alli just fine but I don't think that suits Lallana at all.
Of the CL contenders, I think Atletico is the one who would suit him perfectly. He reminds me a ton of Raul Garcia, who was very productive under Simeone, but Alli is a better player already despite being much younger. I don't think Atletico would pay the money Spurs would rightfully demand for him, though. If Pochettino stays, he should probably just stay
Of course not. But if Woody were to speak with Segal about something totally unrelated and just drop in how much a decent squad player earns at United... well, that would be fine with me.Surely your not suggesting United would tap a player up are you?
Alli is bascially a 2nd striker. Most of his work comes inside the box. Outside the box he doesn't fit in any way how Barca play currently. You rightfully point out how Rakitic is a better fit for them, even Gomes who's lambasted by their fans. As for being an aerial threat, that hardly matters because Barca don't start crossing the ball unless they're a bit desperate. Also not sure how much of a threat he is when marked. His goals are mostly because he's unmarked in the box.
As for OP, don't think it's a question really. Probably England's best midfielder overall, never mind the young one. He should always be playing behind Kane for England with Sterling on the right and someone else on the left (problem position as always for England).
I don't understand this 'he plays as a second striker' claim everyone use to explain his great goal-scoring return. For me, people could claim that he has at times played as a shadow striker / second striker at times, especially when we play with three at the back. But how does this differ from other attacking players in other teams (or indeed Spurs team, since I see the same freedom in Son's play). If Alli is a 'second striker' why isn't Mata, Mhikitarian, Rashford, Martial, Hazard, Pedro, Mane, Coutinho and so on also second strikers? Or am I missing something here? If so I would love to see the heatmap, touches and other stats from this season that show how Alli is different from other attackers.
I can't embed the heat map for Alli vs Watford but it clear shows he was hardly ever in the opposition box, he's clearly mostly outside the box. A lot of detractors want to make out that Ali is nothing but hype, I assure you he is not. His build up play and passing is excellent, maybe not the longest range of passing but he creates space and moves the ball on well. He's not a dirty player but very rash, he's a winner, think Rooney at the same age.
I personally hope he stays at Spurs under Poch to continue learning as he still very young and he has plenty of time to move if ever wishes to. I don't see him leaving as long Spurs continue progressing style of play and consistency. His partnership with Kane is fantastic not to mention how the style of Poch's football compliments them.
That's what I see as well, but now apparently the only reason he is doing well is because he is a 'second striker'. I don't see how his role differ from other attackers in the league, he is just extremely good at finding space in the box and timing his runs.
Yeah like it's not like even if he was a striker his stats would be poor, 16 league goals for a 21yo with less than 2 seasons in a top league. The whole perception that he's a twat I just don't see he just seems like a pretty down to earth kid, we're gonna get bids from across Europe this summer I am sure.
Dele Alli at 21: The best young midfielder in Europe, according to WhoScored - http://www.skysports.com/transfer/n...g-midfielder-in-europe-according-to-whoscored
He is a second striker. Just like Mane, Martial, Pedro, Son, Sanchez(sometimes being played as a striker this season). Mata, Hazard, Mkhitaryan, Coutinho are attacking midfielders. I think the distinction is made by people so some don't go around comparing his stats with those of midfielders like Pogba and so on. with those players in the first group statistical comparisons are fair game.
I think the distinction is easy though we have had attaching modfielders for years. Plus having 3 "second strikers" is silly. Even in the "attacking midfielder" category you have players like Mata, Eriksen, Silva etc how are more creators than finishers. We try and over complicate formations and roles so much relying more on stats than what we see with our eyes. Wide forwards, second strikers, wingers etc, it's daft.
I'm not surprised you're keen to cast Alli as "second striker", seeing as he's already scored 12 more club goals than Pogba, despite being 3 years younger.
In my opinion those other players you mentioned don't look to make as many off the ball late runs as Alli does during games.
Frank Lampard said on the weekend that he would also describe Alli as a second striker.
Thing is heat map doesn't fully describe a role. No 10 heat map, which is more midfielder than second forward, can be very similar to second forward. The difference is in game you can see that traditional no 10 tend to stay behind the tip of the formation, even in counter attack, as no is the play maker. Second forward makes off ball movement and take the tip of the formation at times (aka the term forward), to receive the
Heat map ain't accurate as some team try to lure other team out instead of overloading the box. You have to compare player position in game. The off movement, the position they receive the ball compare to the formation of the team... It can be like this: the targetman not always stays in the box, but drop deep to hold up play out side the box. Second forward make run beyond the target man, but still not enough to make it into the box. The "midfielders" may have similar heat map but in the move described above, these midfielders often behind the second forward who make the run beyond and become the tip of the formation.
Edit: If you compare heat map between Tottenham & United, you can see that the style are very different. we put man more into opposition box, while Tottenham seems like working mostly outside the box with much less heat in the opposition's box. If one said Tottenham doesn't attack by citing heat map, it's wrong. Tottenham style is exploiting pocket of space vs ours to supply the players in the box. Ours individual players' heat maps are easier to read as the distinct
To quote myself compare a second forward vs no 10 (Griezmann vs Kaka) from another discussion in other thread.
I will add from the initial post that youtube video only about touches, yet in many cases it's sufficient to make the point in this case. There are more runs that don't result in touch during game. But it's very clear in game the contrast between no 10 & second forward off ball staying behind the tip of the formation vs off ball movement to be the tip of the formation.
There what @Zoo said about Lampard's analysis.
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He doesn't play in the same areas as Pogba, its to be expected. Don't tell me you watch united matches and think Alli plays where he does. If we were to sign him, Martial's role in our team would be more under threat than Pogba's. In midfield, Alli is genuinely mediocre. His ball retention is poor and his passing is erratic. Toss him further up the pitch he's highly creative and is a massive goal threat. His positioning and movement is out of the top drawer. Only a few months ago i had a argument with someone on here claiming that Muller was on a completely different level to Alli, i totally disagree.
BTW why does any spurs fan have a problem with him being labelled a second striker? doesn't take away from his ability or his level of performance this season at all.
If he wasnt English and playing in the Premiership, imagine the amount of wanking that would be going on about him on this forum? Those stats are unreal for a 21 year old.
Doesn't matter. Rashford scored more than Dembele.
Oh now stats tell the full story. You said they don't when Pogba was compared with Dembele.
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You are just sensitive souls if you think saying "Alli is played as second striker/Attacking midfielder" is not giving him credit.
He is very good and statistics don't lie. However, i just think he is like Lampard, playing in a system which allows him to bomb forward with no tactical restrictions. He even reminds me of the Gerrard who played behind Torres as the second striker in one of their better league seasons. Lets see if he can maintain his progress cos i think hia biggest standout quality is his footballing brains and maturity. Skillwise, i honestly think he is incredibly overrated.
You don't think Pogba and Dele play in the same position, surely?
Would Dele be as good if he played in our team? I personally don't think so.
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I understand where you're coming from, but I don't entirely agree. The problem with terms like 'wide forward', 'second striker' and 'attacking midfielder' is that they are usually used to describe a player within a system, when they should be used to describe what a player brings to a team or system. For example, some people here have suggested that Alli's goal count is because he's a second striker (and some have argued that by extension, his goal tally isn't all that). However, I would argue that Alli is a second striker because of his goal tally (ie his biggest contribution to the team in that position behind the striker is his goals), while someone like say Silva or Erikson is an attacking midfielder because their key attribute is creativity, and as such, when they're put into a system, that is the role they're expected to perform.
My point is that there's nothing wrong with sub-dividing players in these positions, but we need to separate what their contribution is to a system from what the system is as a whole in order to understand them. Thus, in the case of Alli, I'd argue that his goal contribution is hugely significant, because he's been put in that attacking midfield/#10 role and is scoring a lot more goals from that position than a lot of other players.
No I don't mind the term attacking midfielder at all, that's what he is. I just think the term "second striker" seems to say he just stays up front off the forward when that's not true. He has touches all over the park. You can't say that some of the posts don't have a slight "he's a second striker, of course he will score 20 goals a season at 21, what's the big deal?".
Another thing is this "I don't his face", "he looks like a prick", "he's a thug", "I wouldn't have him at my club". You could say the same about a lot of top drawer players, just because Alli is English and from the lower leagues I think he is seen as not worthy by a lot of rival fans.
If you watch a full Spurs game you'll see that the 3 behind our striker will all inter change at points during the game, lately it's Son, Eriksen and Alli. It's not a rigid system and its dynamic, probably the main reason we have been able to break down a few parked buses this season.
You are making up lot of things here. I don't think anyone has said "20 goals as SS, not a big deal".
Saying they don't player like Alli is not something outrageous.
for me he's bloody brilliant and only going to get better, I'd love him at City. People rave on about Leroy Sane but Alli is already a level above and if I had a vote for PFA player of the year I'd be giving it to him
The Totti comparison someone had above is kind of an interesting one - Alli as he ages will probably become more and more of a creative striker, something of a similar move to what Totti has done over his career (he played at the tip of the midfield in Capello's 3-4-1-2 early in his career). He's got that same impishness, exuberance and emotional playing style that means the supporters of his club love him and everyone else hates him and a bit of a flair for the dramatic.
Not seen enough of Alli but how fair is it to compare him with Totti?
He's a better finisher than young Totti was, but probably not quite as creative. Plays something a similar role though - a goal focused, deeper lying forward who relies on clever one/twos and through balls to create chances for others more than dribbling or pace.
The reality is, any comparison for a 21 year old is going to be a bit unfair in some way. He's scoring a ludicrous number of goals and he's by far (more than a year - Bellerin is the 2nd youngest player to have started 20 PL matches) the youngest regular in the league he plays in - but he's also still growing into his game.
But history says that anyone who scores this many goals this young is likely bound for absolute superstardom - especially if they aren't an out and out striker. What form it takes is still to be seen, and we're just along for the ride.
Honestly I'm not, it seen fans comparing him to Joey Barton? I know football fans will always defend their own but come on Joey Barton!
Surely no one compared him to Barton when it comes to talent and game? Must be one of his thuggish act.
Yeah it was his rashness but even at that the comparison is harsh surely?
He is a top level talent, the discussion about his position is kinda pointless and only done because people keep bringing up Pogba.
The boy is top class, would break the world transfer record for him in an instant, can only see him getting better, would still class him as a AM rather than a SS but not much different in all honesty for me in the role, works hard, presses, tackles, good passer, cant see any real wekaness in his game.