It's an expression pal, not specifically talking about passes. What I mean is I don't give a feck about the style of football as long as we are winning. Playing good football with no results is pointless.
Is Mou still 'The Special One' for you all?
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It's an expression pal, not specifically talking about passes. What I mean is I don't give a feck about the style of football as long as we are winning. Playing good football with no results is pointless.
The 6 man back line tactical innovation.
Ideally I would like a winning mentality playing attacking football, which we are not getting either since Ferguson retired. I don't care how many cups we win, the things that matter are the League & the Champions League, where we have come nowhere, & hardly qualifying for the latter.
That's some transition there buddy. From "hasn't been defensive at all" to "exceptions aside".
Good football rarely goes without good results. And when it does it's temporary.
That was some straight out of PES when you're 2 man down and defending the lead tactics.
Arsenal would disagree with you, so would Bournemouth, Liverpool, City. You don't need to play scintillating football to win titles, in fact in leagues where consistency and getting over the line is key, it's often the gritty, ugly styles that can maintain the required consistency to get over the line in the EPL. Chelsea have hardly played great attacking football for years, yet they're about to win their second title in a 3 year span.
Some of the most successful teams of the past decade, bar Barca (who were a phenomenon) have won trophies by nullifying their opponents. Madrid have done so by adopting a counter attacking style, Atleti are the masters of this.
I assumed it would be common sense, there isn't a manager worth his salt who is going to play a vital FA cup tie against the best team in the country, with our most important midfielder sent off, our players fatigued, against a fresh side and go gung-ho. Throwing the kitchen sink in those situations is how you get destroyed. You're acting surprised but Jose is always going to opt for the safe approach in games he sees fit, but claiming he's been "more defensive than LVG" is laughable. We didn't try to score under LVG, under Jose we are constantly fluffing chances, different situation. At least we are trying to put the ball in the net.
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Oh please just watch one united game vs a team other than chelsea.
Mou will never be one to have the patience to develop youth but he will do very good things here from next year onwards. He has the drive, hunger, financial means and motivation to have another cycle of huge managerial success.
I think Pochettino would be more suited to us than Jose long term but 3 or 4 wonderful years under Jose with a ton of expensive world class signings is better every day of the week than prehistoric Moyes and his 82 crosses every game while still not winning and endless Osman/Yakubu/Adebayor level players arriving or prehistoric Van Gaal and his torturous sideways neanderthal style and endless hugely expensive dud signings.
I think Pochettino would be more suited to us than Jose long term but 3 or 4 wonderful years under Jose with a ton of expensive world class signings is better every day of the week than prehistoric Moyes and his 82 crosses every game while still not winning and endless Osman/Yakubu/Adebayor level players arriving or prehistoric Van Gaal and his torturous sideways neanderthal style and endless hugely expensive dud signings.
Yet all those top teams you mentioned have a solid base to build on. Their style enables them just to add a certain type of player and be successful.
Whilst us on the other side, we're without identity having a world renowned defensive manager experimenting with different styles week in week out.
City and Liverpool are winning and sitting higher in the league than us.
Barcelona has their unique style that has started back in the days of Rinus Mihels and superb passing and control is the basis of it.
Real Madrid is the most versatile team in the world. They can play on counter and can lay siege and smother their opponents.
Atletico is the only standout there.
This is a typicalrant we see on arsenal fan tv. Mate We have sacked 2 managers and our philosophy has changed 3 times since then and we give complete freedom to any manager to buy players for his philosophy and there lies the problem. Its not black and white as you think.You're making it sound as if Chelsea game in FA Cup was the only time he resorted back to his old ways...
And FYI I'm not acting surprised at all, I was stating before that we shouldn't be surprised since essentially we swapped one defensive manager for another but with a better resume.
So why haven't they? When was the last time Arsenal or Liverpool won anything of note? Despite adding "certain players", they've continued on their regular trajectory for years. We have 2 games on Liverpool and one game on City, whilst being 6 points and 4 points behind those teams respectively, whilst we have already won a trophy this season and could still add the Europa League. By all accounts we can pip them to the top 4 too, given they're hardly out of arm's reach. Comparing us to Barcelona isn't even worth a discussion, so I'm going to ignore that. Real Madrid are the most versatile squad in the world, yet you wouldn't berate some of the defensive counter attacking systems they've employed, funnily enough. Claiming they're versatile and adapt to their opponents but then saying when we do it it's unacceptable is odd. 90% of the games we've drawn we have completely dominated, creating more than a few clear cut chances, whilst we also haven't been blown away by any team since the first Chelsea game in the league.
Atleti and Chelsea are both teams who play gritty, efficient football. One team has made 2 Champions League finals and won a La a few years ago, one is on course to winning their second premier league in 3 years. Yet people are circle jerking themselves over the World's greatest footballing sides ala Spurs, who haven't won shite since they were created, were knocked out convincingly in both European tournaments in a single season and have arguably nothing left to play for but the FA cup, despite being under Poch's world class guidance for years now.
I understand the doom mongering around here is part and parcel of this forum, but Christ. I don't know about you, but I would snap your hand off if you offered me shit football but trophies. Whether or not Jose is the manager to win those trophies, I don't know. Whether or not he's past it or whatever, I also don't know. Barely a season isn't a proper sample size to judge that though. What irks me is thinking certain styles are above us, we aren't the dominant winning machine we were in the past and I'd bet good money we never will be again. Winning comes first. I'd happily accept some stupid memes on Facebook making fun of our shit football if we had trophies to show for it.
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If you were given the choice at the beginning of the season to take Klopp, Guardiola, Jose or Conte... I would guess only a small percentage would've taken Conte. Yet he's doing the best job this year. Over a career I still have faith in Jose and unless he's extremely unlucky, I am positive he will get good results sooner rather than later.
I wonder if we hadn't conceded that goal would this thread have ever get bumbed again ?
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Just answer me this. Is playing good football down to manager or a club? Because you seem to be contemplating that it has to do with the club rather than the manager.
Would have taken Jose without any arguments in 2013 instead of moyes , but with the lvg building job he changed the philosophy of the team and the squad which is very different to how jose Mourinho wants to play. Pep was best suited to this teams strenghts , klopp was a great choice too.
Conte has done a brilliant job, nothing taken away from him but part of his success is down to the ground work jose mourinho did with chelsea and the board which got him the right players with the right philosophy in the team to win the epl. Conte would not win the title with this team as well .
It's down to the manager, but as I've mentioned, playing overly attacking football isn't always the recipe for success. You can't expect to dominate every team you come up against, Pep's shortcomings in the CL with Bayern are proof of this. The world's best managers adapt to certain situations, which is why I don't doubt those shortcomings will be a learning experience for Pep and I wouldn't be surprised if he does better in upcoming CL's. 3 points is 3 points. Once the name is on the trophy how you won it doesn't mean shite.
Gritty, efficient football can be just as effective as fast, attacking football. I can guarantee you all had we won the league this season, winning every match 1-0, none of you lot would be harping on about the shite football.
Yes... I've always liked Jose. Even this season, despite the misfires I almost always like his substitutions and adjustments. I also think Klopp and Guardiola are doing fine jobs even though I'm sure they are under siege from their own fanbases. I'll even go one further and say that Arsenal fans are being harsh on a manager who's taken them to fourth place 20 straight times. I'm guessing their players are pulling a Leicester or Chelsea and as soon as you put any new manager in there you'll see a temporary uptick in form. Very difficult to match the track record of Jose.
Than why are you mentioning Liverpool as an example? As if they played good football throughout the history but they keep failing to win anything.
Also in your last comment it was you who first mentioned Barcelona, I merely explained their tactics.
Good football is down to manager, Klopp has won Bundesliga twice and reached CL final playing good football with incredibly less money than Bayern.
Guardiola had the luck to manage some of the best players ever but even so he managed to implement his system and they're playing his trademark style. Also he's 4 points above us with a game more than us but we still have to play them, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea. They only got us.
And again I don't understand why are you implying as if I expected more from Mourinho?
Aye. It has not been a great season for sure but this is very similar to the first season at Chelsea after his return to England. He inherited a squad which had some glaring weaknesses, addressed some and struggled to address others but will try to do this in the Summer. Hope our second season is similar as theirs was.
A manager's job is to get the best out of the team with a style that suits the team and also with a system that adapts to the strenghts and weaknesses of the players and ensure that the whole system works more than the sum of its parts. When all the variables match then only a consistant team can be built and matching all variables can take time if the ground work done before is done in a different direction.
They are playing good football under Klopp, but haven't won shite, that's why. How far back do you intend to go? Christ. I'm talking about the present. I mentioned that Barca were a phenomenon, which funnily enough were also bested at times by Jose's defensive approach whilst at Madrid at a time when Barca were untouchable.
How is what Klopp did at Dortmund any less impressive than what Simeone has done at Atleti? It isn't. Also, how long has it been since Klopp won anything? 5 years? Cool, in comparison, Jose has won something at this club already, in his first season.
The funny thing is, had Klopp or Poch been hired instead of Jose and they performed here as they have done at their clubs, they'd be getting hounded out. There's nothing to suggest Poch is a winner, his great Spurs side choked last season and have nothing to play for except the FA cup this season. I'm a huge fan of Poch and think we should have hired him, but he still has everything to prove.
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That's a hypothetical though, an unrealistic one at that.
If you look back at the league winners over the last 20 years the primary description wouldn't be gritty and efficient. They might have that in them when the situation demands but generally teams that win play attractive, attacking football.
Which is what we've been trying to do this season, is it not? Granted it hasn't paid dividends yet, but claiming we've been more defensive than LVG is criminal. Also, teams like Chelsea, Madrid etc. have dominated their respective leagues playing counter attacking football, attacking football isn't the only way to win. Adopting a gung-ho style in every game, is certainly not the way to win.
3 of our last 3 PL title winners adopted a counter-attacking or defensive style. Leicester played counter attacking football and Chelsea is Chelsea.
This ideal that counter-attacking football is above us baffles me. When Jose was announced, I was hoping he would implement that style here, it is very exciting to watch and has proved to be extremely effective for him.
Knee-jerking aside , the season was very good and looked really promising till the end of EFL cup final . It seems as it was a season before this final, then a complete different season after it . The football becomes dire and horrible draws returned . It's as if the team believed that they finished the job with that cup . Very strange .This team mentality overall is very weak and not capable to compete continuously the whole season .
If we talked about the season as a whole it's very promising and we showed improvements . Not a great improvements as what we expected but it's still improvement . The last 2 months aside , the football has improved greatly . Defense overall also improved but finishing becomes worse . Heavy inconsistent performance from some players coated us. Some tactical errors from Jose but these things happen , there's no manager who is complete tactically people need to understand this .
People's opinion seems to change according to the current performance , If we were talking just 2 months earlier no one will disagree about the performance and improvement this season , We just pass through a dire priod and everything sudd enly becomes gloom and dark . The manager becomes horrible and team didnt improve at all . Football doesn't work like that . Opinion on the team should be based on the whole season not influenced by the current period only.
Jose is moving us in the right track despite some tactical errors from him. I'm sure next season is going to be a very good one. Keep patient and you'll get all the best.
If we talked about the season as a whole it's very promising and we showed improvements . Not a great improvements as what we expected but it's still improvement . The last 2 months aside , the football has improved greatly . Defense overall also improved but finishing becomes worse . Heavy inconsistent performance from some players coated us. Some tactical errors from Jose but these things happen , there's no manager who is complete tactically people need to understand this .
People's opinion seems to change according to the current performance , If we were talking just 2 months earlier no one will disagree about the performance and improvement this season , We just pass through a dire priod and everything sudd enly becomes gloom and dark . The manager becomes horrible and team didnt improve at all . Football doesn't work like that . Opinion on the team should be based on the whole season not influenced by the current period only.
Jose is moving us in the right track despite some tactical errors from him. I'm sure next season is going to be a very good one. Keep patient and you'll get all the best.
Many assumptions. For how long are world class sides going to see Europa United an attractive proposition. Jose said he promised his signings that we would be out of the big leagues, only temporarily.
Surely Madrid finish most matches with more possessions and attempts on goal than their opposition so in theory they spend most of the game attacking no?
Liverpool has athletes with better mobility in their team so they look better but their sideways passing ina posession based style does not suit this league to be consistant enough
Pep has the same problem with the philosophy.
Conte developed a system which gets thebest out of his players and makes the system more thansum of its parts but he had a proper ground work on mourinho work and board getting the right players
Mourinho had a lvg ground work with players with less mobility and work rate and also i think his straning sessions are not educating the players about what to do with the ball, but better players will change the fortunes.
At times I think the defensiveness has been unnecessary or over the top. It's not just when circumstance demand.
Counter attacking isn't the same as gritty. It's often really entertaining to watch.
Normally I blame players, I did even under Moyes and LvG. There are worrying signs under Jose though, from his last season at Chelsea and the current one. Too many players are underperforming. Mind you I'm not saying it's definitely down to him, clearly he needs more time. Nobody can say either way at this stage really.
Under Zidane currently, yes. Hasn't always been the case though, especially not in the past against some of the bigger sides. Barca at their pomp were a different beast, for example, yet Jose's counter-attacking approach broke the La Liga goal scoring record iirc.
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That I completely agree with, too early to come to any sort of conclusion.
Also yes, at times I didn't agree with his approach, he's made mistakes, no-one is claiming otherwise, but he's shown his style of play is more than capable of bringing in silverware, we'll just have to wait and see.
I personally feel just changing the system to a 4312 or even a 442 will work to get the best out of the bunch
Isn't that the same with most managers who win something? the groundwork this season was laid by LVG legendary foundations? I mean Spain and Germany won world cups because of Louis' groundwork.
I think people are a bit harsh on Conte. If he still played their title winning team and system, I believe they would struggle. With Terry, Ivanovic, the inconsistent Cesc, Azpili at FB, Oscar, even Willian only starts half their games, plus their old 4-2-3-1 formation, they wouldn't be a threat and looked uncertain early on. Fact is Conte got it SPOT on with signings like Kante and Luis, Marco Alonso (he has been a revelation), Moses return, Pedro restored to Barca levels, Azpili at CB, and playing 5 2 3. For me there has been too many wholesale changes to attribute this success to Jose. Costa and Matic are actually the only signings that Jose made himself, that Conte still uses in the same capacity and at the same performance levels. Most of these starters were signed by someone else, played in a different position, or have improved under Conte. Its all very Van Gaalish taking the credit away from Conte. Conte himself annoys me with his play acting on the sidelines but I respect his abilities enough to recognise that he is the catalyst.
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They also managed to lose La Liga to them twice and even finished near 20 points behind them in the 3rd season........
Barca at that level, there wasn't a club in the world at that time who could have pipped them to the title imo. They were unplayable at times.
They were up against the best club side the sport has ever seen, hardly a slight on Madrid
In fact even SAF adopted a defensive style to try and nullify that Barca squad in the '11 final. We were pumping long balls and putting men behind the ball iirc. Think people are underestimating how incredible that Barca team was
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Different managers for different situations.
Of the four, Jose was the best man for the quick rebuilding that United needed and while results could have been better, the team does seem to be moving in the right direction. Next season would be the true judge.
Conte inherited a core of high quality players, who had been playing together for a few seasons (won the league 2 season ago), and he just needed to patch some areas and address mentality/motivation issues. Still he brought in key players (Kante, Alonso, and Luiz), and, had the luxury of a lighter schedule courtesy of no European commitments and early LC elimination. Not sure how he would mange the rebuild while adapting to a new league. He does seem to get more out of mediocre players than most elite managers.
Klopp is an interesting option in that I am not sure how well he would work with the bulk of players at United. He tends to prefer an up tempo approach which I am not sure would have been possible without a major squad overhaul. I expected him to have done better with Liverpool (challenging for the title) but then he is also new to the league, so would give him another season to judge.
Pep would have been the worst choice as he would have likely required 25 new players brought in. One only needs to look at the changes he has made at Citeh. Pep is a stubborn purist who is hell bent on having his team play in a particular (uncommon) way and would demand he get players (including goalkeeper) suited to such style. I doubt any of the players at United would have been found satisfactory.
Next season would be the true measure of which club got it right
Well Madrid had the biggest budget, 2 former Balon D'or winners (more than Barca), the likes of Ozil, Ramos, Pepe, Marcelo, Di Maria, Xabi Alonso etc. I may be harsh but I feel this is a weak excuse, given the level of talent and expenditure. We have seen recently that on his day even the likes of Di Maria can wreck Barcelona. Real's defence should've been better also. They only had to beat all the other sides and grab a result or 2 against Barcelona, yet they finished 15 points behind. Its kinda pathetic. Even Atletico won it the season afterwards.
LVG had a different philosophy to what jose Mourinho's has and Jose mourinho's orignal philosophy is the right one for being consistant in epl due to the defensive counter attacking teams that are in the epl. While the players LVG bought are suited to his philosophy which is not entirely a correct philosophy to play in epl due to bus parking epl defenses who play for a point against teams who control so much of the ball.
I think you misunderstood me on conte, i only mentioned a part of his success was down to the right philosophy jose mourinho did ground work on, and theboard got him the right players for him in the summer but Developing a 343 system with players suiting their strengths is down to conte and conte alone .
But if conte came to united he would not have the same effect in this team.
Its funny you think this way but as Lvg Built this team pep would have been the obvious choice to get the best out of it following lvg because our squad has the capability of winning the ball back which pep's team do not have in city but Lvg's back and side passing would have been improved under pep with this team for which we totally had the technical skillfull players for
I agree with it all. I guess I just needed clarification. I have stated many times that LVG and Jose are not a good fit for succession and the board has been haphardly recruiting managers. Could we do 343 though. Tony V and Shaw wing backs. Bailly Smalling and Rojo. Pogba and Herrera/Carrick and Zlatan, Martial and Miki/Rashford up top? naaaaaaaah
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