Should Mourinho bring in a new 'attacking coach'

Raees said:
We are all aware of the fact he broke the record with Madrid but it was based a lot on counter attacking football. He's class at coaching counter attacks.. a master at it.
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Real Madrid weren't really a counter-attacking team. It's true that compared to Barcelona they didn't treat possession as an essential, but compared to their usual opponents including the bus-parkers they were generally going forward. In the CL they were always top three in the person stats.

In the Liga win, you're looking at possession stats of 57% and them spending 32% in the final third as opposed to Barca's 33%. They did score a lot of goals in counterattacks and at setpieces but they scored a lot of goals in other ways as well.
 
If his name is Antoine Griezmann then yes Mourinho should.
 
Moonwalker said:
He prioritises defence over attack. We knew this. If you're unhappy with that fact, you should want another manager, not some magical coaching staff fix that will make him the synthesis of everything you ever dreamed of.

The most decorated manager in the game, will not just wake up one morning thinking "Maybe I should really figure out that attacking bit today, I've been putting it off for too long."
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Exactly! You hear this sort of nonsense every time a team is struggling at one end. The idea that football teams are somehow separate entities of offence and attack is simply far off the reality. Everything is linked and affects each other. Mourinho like many others, has a clear idea of what the foundation of a team should be, this will always get a priority and affect other areas accordingly.
 
@Raees is spot on about our counter attacking. I posted the following back in December after we had been 1-0 up away only to bring Fellaini on and concede a late equaliser...

settembrini said:
I don't understand why we don't play more counter attacking football when defending a lead. It lets you be more solid defensively whilst still retaining an attacking threat so the opposition can't just push everyone forward.

Yesterday Rashford coming on for Ibrahimovic would have made sense, he would have pressed more and his pace in behind would have kept the Everton defence honest. Bringing him on for Martial had no tactical benefit and Martial was playing well anyway. Then subbing Mkhitaryan for Fellaini crippled our counter attacking chances and just invited a lot more pressure.
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It was almost the exact same story last night. At 1-0 up and away from home switching to a counter attacking system would have been a sensible move. Instead we brought on Fellaini, inviting pressure whilst reducing our ability to hit them on the break. Worrying that he keeps on making the same mistakes.
 
kbbear said:
For all Zlatan's goals, I think he's too static and doesn't offer any threat to sneak in behind and get his head or foot to a slide pass or a cross. Lukaku can hold the ball up and get across the six yard box. A faster more mobile centre forward would do. Also, Luke Shaw or another left footed attacking full back would bring more threat down both flanks.
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As far as I can remember he has never really been this kind of striker. He wouldn't have done this even if he came in his peak period? I haven't seen all of his games, so someone who knows better can please correct me if I'm wrong.

How much faster is Lukaku? I don't consider him being that fast. If a fast striker is needed, then it should be Aubameyang and no one else.
 
Raees said:
No you fecking retard. Coaching on the counter attack is different kettle of fish to coaching patterns of play when a team is well set and you have to try and break it down.

I've done my coaching badges and I can tell you straight that it is much easier to put on a counter attacking session when there is space for you to attack into and the runs are much easier to make and easier for the attackers to get shots off make decisions at speed.

Against a well set defence it is very hard to create patterns of play which work - for any coach in all honesty but obviously some coaches are better at it than others.

So take your gash elsewhere.
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That's an interesting topic.

The comparison will sound silly but we have the same problem than Barcelona this year, I believe that our problem is in our inability to put a controlled pressure on the opponents, we are able to create chances through sheer talent but collectively we are too messy to actually manipulate the structure of our opponents and create fear/despair in their minds which generally leads to concentration mistakes.
One of the most effective way to toy with opponents minds is in my opinion by controlling and changing the rhythm of ball movement and changing passing angles but to do that you need far better collective understanding which I don't see in that team.
 
Raees said:
The reason why this current United side can't counter attack effectively is because of poor personnel and shit tactics by Jose. If you're one nil up and 20mins to play why would you have a slow 35 year old up front?

Why would you take off your pacey attackers and bring guys like Fellaini on? Why wouldn't you have both Rashford and Martial on the pitch to take advantage of the space in behind? None of it makes sense and that stuff is tactical and it stems from the managers poor decision making.

Next year with a better side I hope his decision making is better but there is no doubt that as poor as our squad is.. if Jose had been on peak form, even if we were using counter attack tactics, if they were implemented properly we would be top 4 comfortably.
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A striker who is good at holding the ball up with 3 pacy players behind is "Counter Attack 101". United have had that for years. Mark Hughes was the striker when United were amazing on the counter attack.

Fellaini came on to release Pogba and he did play Rashford and Martial as the wingers until Rashford tired. He still had Mkhitaryan wide who has plenty of speed.

I don't think the set up was bad but maybe it is the personnel because their decision making and ability to execute was abysmal. I agree with you that counter attack is easier to execute than breaking down a packed defence but the number of times a United player picked the wrong option, played a careless flick or misplaced a simple pass to ruin a golden opportunity on the break was infuriating. I don't know whether it is coaching, arrogance or stupidity but it needs sorting out.
 
While it is true our attacking has improved and we're lacking the finishing touch, on the whole our young attacking players have stagnated and think bringing in someone who can develop their game is needed as currently they're repeating the same mistakes and don't think they're being helped in how to remedy it. I think Mourinho will opt to sign someone more "ready made" in the likes of Griezmann and sell Martial though.
 
I don't think its tactical its mental and also on occasion a lack of quality.

As Jose said post match yesterday, we often make poor choices when the "chance to create a chance" appears. If we do make the right choice, the execution is poor just at the crucial moment.

If you look at Pogba and Zlatan, arguably our only two world class outfield players, you rarely see them rushed or panicked. The likes of Lingard, Rashford and Martial are very inconsistent, floating between the sometimes sublime, mostly mundane and occasionally ridiculous.

The Anderlecht goal yesterday highlighted what we were missing imo. Players who can deliver a quality ball into the box. If the delivery is good even the best defences struggle to defend against balls whipped into the box.
 
All the best teams have a number of really class players in attacking third in their prime. United have potential learning the game or in the twilight of their careers.
 
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Lentwood said:
I don't think its tactical its mental and also on occasion a lack of quality.

As Jose said post match yesterday, we often make poor choices when the "chance to create a chance" appears. If we do make the right choice, the execution is poor just at the crucial moment.

If you look at Pogba and Zlatan, arguably our only two world class outfield players, you rarely see them rushed or panicked. The likes of Lingard, Rashford and Martial are very inconsistent, floating between the sometimes sublime, mostly mundane and occasionally ridiculous.

The Anderlecht goal yesterday highlighted what we were missing imo. Players who can deliver a quality ball into the box. If the delivery is good even the best defences struggle to defend against balls whipped into the box.
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I think Ibra and Pogba were as culpable as anyone for the poor attacking play yesterday. They were the central players in the 9 and 10 roles late in the game and wasted some glorious opportunities through carelessness and poor execution.
 
POF said:
I think Ibra and Pogba were as culpable as anyone for the poor attacking play yesterday. They were the central players in the 9 and 10 roles late in the game and wasted some glorious opportunities through carelessness and poor execution.
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I do agree that Ibra was very poor yesterday but I will allow the odd game because for the most part he has exceeded my expectations

I dont count Pogba as an attacker but mentioned him purely because I was comparing the mentality of a top player who never hides, takes responsibility and keeps attempting the technically difficult over some of the others who hide, play safe and make poor choices under pressure

I also think Pog was excellent yesterday for the record
 
JPRouve said:
People mention Griezmann but he has been coached by Simeone to play the way he does, he didn't just miraculously saw the light. If Mourinho doesn't coach the attacking players, if he doesn't make a genuine or effective effort to make that group click, we can buy all the players on earth and they will look like a bunch of strangers. And we will rely on individual moments of brilliance like we currently do.
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Martial, Mkitharyan, Rashford, Pogba all of them were playing very well last season under other managers but are looking clueless under Jose!
Can someone please tell me which attacking player has improved under him?
He really need someone to coach the attackers and another one to take care of our young players.
 
To me it seems Mourinho is fence sitting atm and can't quite decide which way he wants to go.

His bread and butter was counter attacking, relying on fast forwards that devastated teams on the counter. In Real he had an extremely talented squad so he had other options as well plus Madrid crowd wouldn't like his "bus parking".

Here is different. We can't be counter attacking team when our forwards lack speed, so we're laying siege on teams, exploring slow buildup and trying to play attractive which was never his style, which more often than not doesn't go well and we resort to hoofing the ball upfront.
 
Lentwood said:
I do agree that Ibra was very poor yesterday but I will allow the odd game because for the most part he has exceeded my expectations

I dont count Pogba as an attacker but mentioned him purely because I was comparing the mentality of a top player who never hides, takes responsibility and keeps attempting the technically difficult over some of the others who hide, play safe and make poor choices under pressure

I also think Pog was excellent yesterday for the record
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I thought Pogba played superbly in the midfield 2 but was extremely wasteful in the more attacking role on the counter attack in the second half. Attempting the technically difficult when simple is more effective and carelessness with a simple ball is a big part in the lack of goals in this United side.

I much prefer Pogba in the deeper position. His decision making in the final third is incredibly frustrating.
 
I wonder if other forums are as obsessed with coaches. We even had it under Fergie but oddly the underlying trend has been when people moan about coaching its always been during times we've lacked the individual quality in positions.

Our attacking options just aren't good enough at this point.
 
Yep. Remember posting something to this effect in the old unpopular opinions thread:

United should try and employ an unorthodox approach: hire some of Napoli's coaches to run the offensive side of things, particularly to train the players in the build-up to to the final third, and improve our transitions/attacking patterns (especially in wider areas) or finishing in and around the box (which Napoli is really good at). Their output and finishing is consistently good year-upon-year (even with changes of personnel - like losing Higuaín at the start of the current season), and the volume of goals they score from a plethora of positions and players is remarkable. 4th in terms of goals scored per game from some of the bigger European leagues (behind Monaco who're at 2.9, Madrid at 2.7, and Barcelona at 2.6) - with Callejón scoring 8, Insigne scoring 7, Milik scoring 4 in 4 starts before his injury, Hamšík scoring 9 and Mertens scoring 16. Our offensive woes have gone on for too long, and we might want to try multiple approaches to address that issue and arrest this pattern of fielding anemic attacks (instead of just the let's sign X or Y for eleventy-million part).

Meulensteen was supposed to be a good skills/finishing coach, and we might lack someone of that nature to ease the attackers' nerves, and improve folk's focus and composure in front of goal via repetitive training and orchestrating pre-planned goal scenarios:
"The way he [Meulensteen] trains is refreshing. He is truly one of the best coaches in the world. I've had a lot of good trainers, but it's the way he prepares our team for games.

"Every match is different so every training session in build-up is unique. We know exactly what to expect. He wins points for us through his training.

"We've won a lot of games by the odd goal - they are point winners. Consider the game against Chelsea.

"I scored after a low cross from Antonio Valencia on the right. It might seem like a fluke, but the whole week before the game was spent working on that move.

"Another example is my goal against Wigan when I cut the ball inside and shot with my right foot - again this was a situation we trained on."
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Link.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...-post-yours-here.415881/page-57#post-20423337

José is not someone who will use Lillo-esque Juego de Posición to help convert numerical or passage of play superiority to consistently and proactively organize more creative chances when we have the bulk of possession and the opposition wants us to expose them. His offensive strategy has historically been more rudimentary and dare I say Simeone-esque - wait for the opposition to commit an error or force an error, and then try to systematically blitz them in an efficient manner with simplistic patterns (which is kind of our weak point in attack right now because our players are quite complacent and make bad decisions - so we lack efficiency and that element of horniness or killer instinct). This approach is also kind of why his attacks often become bottlenecked. We need to either sign more efficient players to put the opposition to the sword (which will still not solve all the problems because a reactive attack can still be throttled to an extent), or improve the efficiency of the current lot (by inculcating a sense of automatism in training - like Meulensteen under Fergie), or ideally get a good offensive coach (who can create more effective patterns in attack, bring the players in the better positions, encourage automatism, and properly drill the offensive players in training - thus resolving multiple issues and heightening the effectiveness of the attack once we do sign better players).

This could be the next step in Mourinho's evolution as a manager - these days, he's more of an overseer and not extremely involved in the day-to-day training as a micromanager - leaving it to the likes of Rui Faria, so adding a good offensive mind to the team isn't exactly out of order (provided he has a complementary personality and goes about things in a way that doesn't jeopardize the defensive organisation of the team and aligns with Mourinho's principle of play) - kind of an alternative approach to what Ancelotti does - he gives more leeway to the most creative and effective attackers in his team and lets them organize things on their own (to an extent). There are a lot of managers who're good offensive minds but fail at a proper managerial job because they lack a bit of defensive foresight or organisational ability - targeting someone of that ilk for the coaching team could be a step in the right direction because that coach could help extract more juice out of what we have, and also get the best out of the new signings by tailoring the attack to their strengths. It essentially just boils down to - do we need better offensive players? yes, but does that preclude us from also improving the offensive approach? no - those aren't mutually exclusive concepts and both approaches should be explored to improve the attack on a qualitative and tactical level.
 
Defences and 'keepers must love playing against us. Everything is telegraphed and easy to pick up. Shots will be easy to block, or straight at the 'keeper, and they end up looking world class.
 
Smores said:
I wonder if other forums are as obsessed with coaches. We even had it under Fergie but oddly the underlying trend has been when people moan about coaching its always been during times we've lacked the individual quality in positions.

Our attacking options just aren't good enough at this point.
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Spot on. Jose has done what he always does first season. Set a solid foundation. By far the most difficult thing to do - just ask Guardiola, Wenger and Klopp!

Now wait until we have two quality wide players and a top notch CF we will be unplayable. City, Arsenal and Liverpool can bring in all the superstar forwards they like but until they stop shipping goals it will count for nothing.
 
duffer said:
I don't think he showed much of a noticible "second season" improvement whilst at Chelsea. His 2 spells at Chelsea went like this:
First spell; Took over a team that finished 2nd, won league in his first season (95 points), won league in his second season (91 points).

Second spell; Took over a team that finished 3rd, finished 3rd in his first season (83 points), won league second season (86 points).

First spell, his second season was worse, second spell he got 3 more points. There was no real dramatic difference if you compare first and second seasons.
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except winning the title which is nothing "noticeable", it must of been down to other teams not turning up those seasons eh.
 
Munich_1958 said:
except winning the title which is nothing "noticeable", it must of been down to other teams not turning up those seasons eh.
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He was here for two spells. First spell he got 4 fewer points (first and second season), second spell he got three more. I don't think you can say there was a noticible "second season" improvement overall for Jose at Chelsea.
 
duffer said:
He was here for two spells. First spell he got 4 fewer points (first and second season), second spell he got three more. I don't think you can say there was a noticible "second season" improvement overall for Jose at Chelsea.
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the improvement being they won the league now stop being silly
 
No, but I think with better attacking players, and by better I mean who are technically superior, have better decision making can make the difference next seaon.
 
Fracture90 said:
We can't always resort to bringing in new players when facing a problem. Top managers should be able to get the best out of their players and try to create a system that's suites the most with the players they have in their disposal, rather then shoehorning players into a system that cannot get the best out of them. I believe Conte is the best example for that.

Also Rooney is barely ever playing so he can't be the one to blame, whilst Lingard just signed a new contract, no way he'll be leaving any time soon.
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Rooney is taking up a considerable chunk of wages so getting rid of him and bringing in a replacement on that kind of wage or below should boost our team no end. I agree with Lingard but I just think he is our 2016-2018 version of Tom Cleverley and eventually will move on due to lack of game time.
 
No he just needs to hire someone to sit beside him on the bench and hit him a slap every time he tries to being Fellaini on to defend a lead.
 
This is all bs. Jose was one of the few, if not the only one, that didn't give a complete free roam role to Cristiano in Madrid. He was very tactically disciplined and the attack produced great combinations.

Since then he has been playing wherever he prefers be it on Madrid or the NT.

The notion that Mourinho just leaves his forwards to do as they please is very naive and false.
 
Minimalist said:
The awkward looks when three new strikers come in (e.g. Griezmann) and they all start missing chances and looking clueless.

The idea that Mourinho has no role in how wank our attack is flies in the face of everything a good manager in the past has been known for. Good managers get the best out of out poor players, mediocre players and pushes good players on to look great.

Mourinho gets away with murder on this issue. fecking train them properly.
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I keep seeing this but it doesn't happen at this level.

What poor players or mediocre players would make it at Man Utd? We are in a highly competitive world now. Utd are as rich as Bayern, Real and Barca. We want to compete with them. Jose knows we need to stop messing around and bring in established stars like everyone else does. Once you've hit the top you can then think about developing players over time in order to remain there.
 
Cliche Guevara said:
I keep seeing this but it doesn't happen at this level.

What poor players or mediocre players would make it at Man Utd? We are in a highly competitive world now. Utd are as rich as Bayern, Real and Barca. We want to compete with them. Jose knows we need to stop messing around and bring in established stars like everyone else does. Once you've hit the top you can then think about developing players over time in order to remain there.
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You're missing the point. I don't believe our players are poor at all.
 
I didn't say you did.

I keep reading people saying good managers get the best out of players, by way of a slight on Jose.

In my view that doesn't apply at Man Utd as you need to have some of the very best talent to make the difference. We have far too many players who are a work in progress or lack consistency.
 
kouroux said:
Too true, you can see this effect in teams that changes managers mid-season (it doesn't work all the time of course but it is enough to know that a manager can improve his players instantly) and they immediately look more dangerous, score more goals and play better.
The manager's impact is seriously underrated, it cannot be all "the players are shit", I mean some poorer teams score more than us, look more threatening than us and they have clearly worse players.
What he did in the past doesnt matter (in terms of having teams that scored regularly), he's being judged on his Man Utd impact and so far it is not satisfying. Will new players change that, you would think and hope so. However he is very disappointing in terms of positively impact the players he currently has.
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JPRouve said:
People mention Griezmann but he has been coached by Simeone to play the way he does, he didn't just miraculously saw the light. If Mourinho doesn't coach the attacking players, if he doesn't make a genuine or effective effort to make that group click, we can buy all the players on earth and they will look like a bunch of strangers. And we will rely on individual moments of brilliance like we currently do.
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Raees said:
No you fecking retard. Coaching on the counter attack is different kettle of fish to coaching patterns of play when a team is well set and you have to try and break it down.

I've done my coaching badges and I can tell you straight that it is much easier to put on a counter attacking session when there is space for you to attack into and the runs are much easier to make and easier for the attackers to get shots off make decisions at speed.

Against a well set defence it is very hard to create patterns of play which work - for any coach in all honesty but obviously some coaches are better at it than others.

So take your gash elsewhere.
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JPRouve said:
That's an interesting topic.

The comparison will sound silly but we have the same problem than Barcelona this year, I believe that our problem is in our inability to put a controlled pressure on the opponents, we are able to create chances through sheer talent but collectively we are too messy to actually manipulate the structure of our opponents and create fear/despair in their minds which generally leads to concentration mistakes.
One of the most effective way to toy with opponents minds is in my opinion by controlling and changing the rhythm of ball movement and changing passing angles but to do that you need far better collective understanding which I don't see in that team.
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I agree with all these posts in terms of the most basic principle of building a team. It's not about throwing cash at the problem(s) and nor is it hiring and firing managers. If it is so then make Woodward the manager.

A team at the bottom can change manager and the new guy works on organisation and positioning rigourously to keep clean sheets. That happens quite regularly where mediocre teams start becoming hard to beat and put on runs to climb the table. Big Sam and Pulis have made careers on that principle - make the whole greater than the sum of its part.

You can also apply that principle to attacking play. Style of play, patterns of play, movements and skill are developed and made habitual through practice. You eliminate bad habits through rigorous drills. It's the Dutch school. Right now Pochettino who has shown this at Southampton and Spurs is a great example in the Premier League. And he has a balance of defence and attack.

Now as usual there will be replies of "what has he won?" and to an extent that's fair. But compare his budgets and his quality of players. Most people on here had them out of top four and Utd winning the title or at least up there challenging so don't act revisionist.
 
DWelbz19 said:
This is a big point, and it's something we seem set up to not do. Darmian literally plays as a third CB.
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Not just Darmian - the lot of them. Even when Blind of Valencia do go forward, the other full back stays in defence - we don't need two midfielders, two centre backs and one full back defending at all times.

I don't think it helps that Valencia (who defends superbly these days) has no ability going forward. He just isn't a threat.

I think Jose needs to buy two top full backs, then trust the midfield and centre backs to do a job. Do that and we'll suddenly be banging them in.
 
Yes. Not replace though, but add to improve it further. The current attacking coach(es), whoever that person (or they) is/are, have done well in coaching the team in goal scoring chances creation, post-play movements, crosses, ok-wing plays, full-back overlaps, etc.

But seems to be poor in finishing drills, shooting practices especially distance and even inside the box are quite embarrassing (Herrera regressed too much in this), poaching movements, and the hole aka no.10 attacking plays.

So, improvements to our attacking coaching teams is important. Specialist coaches in those departments are vital if we really are planning to be the best team again.

Better specialist players would for sure fill that weakness. But hey, I'm up for overall improvements to the squad as a whole: managers, coaches, and players. Our facilities are that good already right.

Then again, this is just my opinions though, I don't know what happened during training sessions.
 
1000000000% yes, what's Solskjaer currently doing ? As natural deadly finishers go he had very few peers and is a god for us, I'd very happy if he came in as an attack coach.
 
A lot more people would be laughing at this kind of thread a month or 2 ago. Certainly people think it was a bit ridiculous to suggest jose does not know much about attacking (counter attacking asides) when a few including me said we thought so.

But of course, it does not mean it is true.

We just have to wait and see till next season.

The only thing that kind of concern me about reading this thread was when duffy said his chelsea team in 2nd season didn't show much of improvement in terms of points. Not to mention his usual 3rd season shit.

But then again, it would be hard not to do it with us next season as this season has been pretty meh.
 
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