Champions League QFs (11th - 19th April)

schwalbe said:
If one team wins because the ref screwed the other one, that team didn't win fairly even though it might have been the better team. Some in here are just too thick to understand that.
The real problem here is not the match yesterday, but that it happens all the time. There is no "it evens itself out over the course of a season" when your season is over after it happens to you.
A competition as important as the CL shouldn't be decided by some useless ref.
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I completely agree with you.
However the same was the case in the Paris Barca tie. There were quite a lot of the usual Bayern forum warriors (not talking about you, i don't remember the particular names) just boasting around how "Barcelona steamrolled Paris" and stuff like that, while almost nobody mentioned that Paris would've kicked Barca out without that pathetic refereeing (Paris obviously not having the biggest of lobbies in this forum). Now one round further, the same happens to Bayern, and they call to arms against the ref and go absolutely crazy - i think that's a bit duplicitous, don't you? Again, i am not talking about you, no idea what your opinion was about that game, i just talk about the general picture after that tie.
 
Has anything concrete come of this yet? Or is just angry fans ranting till it dies down then it happens again next year then the ranting begins again
 
fellaini's barber said:
Has anything concrete come of this yet? Or is just angry fans ranting till it dies down then it happens again next year then the ranting begins again
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Nah mate, by next year 95% of people will have forgotten, and will scream around about the oh-so-great La Liga with their superior teams
 
fellaini's barber said:
Has anything concrete come of this yet? Or is just angry fans ranting till it dies down then it happens again next year then the ranting begins again
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Pretty much this:
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Born2Lose said:
Bizarre thread this, Barca and Bayern fans trying to take the moral high ground.

Add in Robben, Ribery, Alba and Suarez and you've got two teams easily as objectionable as Real.

Last night Bayern just lost to better cheats.
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I agree with you, don't see how either team can take the moral high ground.
Especially Barca who are the biggest cheats in the game and have been for several years.
 
Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 said:
Here we go! Great header by CR7 who has done nothing for the whole game. 1-1.
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They are called game changing players for a reason.
Runner said:
I agree with you, don't see how either team can take the moral high ground.
Especially Barca who are the biggest cheats in the game and have been for several years.
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Exactly. Barcelona fans were missing last week when a legit Juve goal was scored but it was ruled offside. I hope we get to witness an elclasico semifinal tie. Refs will be shitting themselves at every whistle and offside appeals.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
Exactly. Barcelona fans were missing last week when a legit Juve goal was scored but it was ruled offside. I hope we get to witness an elclasico semifinal tie. Refs will be shitting themselves at every whistle and offside appeals.
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Barcelona would win that as they are better at cheating. :lol:
 
Fracture90 said:
Hypothetically when a player has a clear shot on goal and misses, ans misses badly, how is that goalie's merit?
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It's not bad luck either, is it? The player missed the chance.

Refereeing mistakes and biased - now that is bad luck - because there isn't anything Bayern can do about it.
 
Infordin said:
It's not bad luck either, is it? The player missed the chance.

Refereeing mistakes and biased - now that is bad luck - because there isn't anything Bayern can do about it.
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Good luck for Bayern, bad for Madrid.

There were mistakes all over the place both last night and in the first game.

In the first game Muller was onside and in a good position when ref called it offside. Bayern was given a non-existent penalty.

In the 2nd one, Casemiro should have been sent off, Vidal should have been sent off at the start of the 2nd half, Lewandowski wasn't offside when he got that ball through from Robben I think, but Lewandowski was offside when Ramos scored that own goal. 2nd and 3rd goal from Ronaldo he was offside.

As I said before, Spanish clubs, some more than the others are getting way too much help from ref's. It's killing the game and video technology needs to be implemented.
 
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Fracture90 said:
I somewhat agree.

I'd like video technology but don't want the game to be a slave to it like it's in NBA and NFL where games last two times longer due to it.

I mean don't question every ridiculous like call or faul.
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I agree. I would limit the plays you can challenge to red cards (whether straight red or second yellow), penalties, and goals (which you can challenge for offsides, not other infractions like a foul should have been called somewhere) and I would give each manager only two challenges per game maximum. The vast majority of games I think you would see only 1-2 challenges total and these challenges wouldn't be that disruptive to the flow of the football because the match always stops for a while when these things happen anyways as the players complain, celebrate, etc. I really don't think it would change the playing or viewing experience very much and you'd have a safeguard against wrong decisions deciding key matches.
 
Powderfinger said:
I agree. I would limit the plays you can challenge to red cards (whether straight red or second yellow), penalties, and goals (which you can challenge for offsides, not other infractions like a foul should have been called somewhere) and I would give each manager only two challenges per game maximum. The vast majority of games I think you would see only 1-2 challenges total and these challenges wouldn't be that disruptive to the flow of the football because the match always stops for a while when these things happen anyways as the players complain, celebrate, etc. I really don't think it would change the playing or viewing experience very much and you'd have a safeguard against wrong decisions deciding key matches.
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Yeah limit the amount of challenges per team is good idea, but not on only 2. Let those close offside calls without stopping the game and then check on the replay later, penalties and harsh tackles, handballs etc...those all need to be checked.

Thing about this video replay technology is that both pro and against sides will have their valid arguments.

If there's an throw-in and you award it to the wrong team from which they score, than that's a problem, but on the other hand if you are to check every throw-in game would last forever and we lose that tempo and continuity we all love about football.
 
Celestiale said:
I don't think it's a planned conspiracy by the UEFA, at least in recent years. I rather think it's subconscious manipulation of the referee by Spanish teams especially (not only the ref, also the media and the fans in part). It's not even the pure diving and moaning part, the most manipulative is the constant pretending to be seriously hurt.
Players from Barca especially, but also Sevilla, Atletico, and other Spanish teams (not all, i rarely see teams like Bilbao doing it) react like they'd have broken their leg anytime they get touched in the slightest - believe me, i am a footballer myself, and 80% of the fouls where those players roll around and cry like babies you don't even feel during the game. This behavior triggers protection measures on people who watch it - including the ref - and are leading to the ref throwing cards around for every slightest coming together. It was the same case in the first leg from Juventus - Barca, referee throwing cards on Juve for absolutely nothing, if not even fouls from Barcelona (like Sergi Roberto throwing himself into the Juve elbow to trigger a card, which also worked). Me and my buddies watching it were going absolutely mad, despite none of us being a Juve supporter or even sympathizer. Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who don't understand those psychologic tricks and can't comprehend the manipulative way of those teams. This behavior brought especially Barca and Sevilla a lot of glory in recent years - of course it didn't decide every single tie, i don't want to deny them their footballing class - , but ever so often it is the deciding factor in close ties in favour of Spanish teams, as it was just last round for Barcelona. I was really happy seing the Juve players being so unfazed by their theatricals, i would have gone mad if i'd been on the pitch.

In case of yesterday though, you really can't blame Madrid. The situation where Vidal was sent off, the Real player didn't moan or act in any way, and it's not their fault if the linesman can't spot an offside. It was pure and simple a very bad day for the refs.
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Yesterday I don't think Real really did any cheating; It wasn't like a Barca game like the PSG for example where they are trying to con the ref all the time. A part of that I think is the ref caving in and hoping they stop doing it to make his life easier. But it doesn't and then they push the envelope and see how much they can get away with and by that point the ref has lost control.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Yesterday I don't think Real really did any cheating; It wasn't like a Barca game like the PSG for example where they are trying to con the ref all the time. A part of that I think is the ref caving in and hoping they stop doing it to make his life easier. But it doesn't and then they push the envelope and see how much they can get away with and by that point the ref has lost control.
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As i said. I think Real Madrid overall is by far not as bad as Barcelona in that respect. They are at their worst when they encounter Barca in the Classico, because doing the same nonsense is the only way to not get disadvantaged against them (which Real had to learn the hard way a few years back). But while Barcelona is doing it in pretty much every other game, Real rarely resorts to those theatrics.
 
Vato said:
:lol: How convenient when you just list the errors that went in our favor.

Maybe we got a few shocking decisions in our favor but Bayern also got some, let's not try to rewrite history here.

Really can't believe there is this much outrage, especially by Barcelona fans who shouldn't complain too much themselves when it comes to this matter. At least our players didn't dive all over the place, feign injury and crowded the ref every 2 minutes.... The decisions made by the ref are out of our hands, but I guess all is fair game when trying to make us look like a horrible team. Hypocrites.
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In the Barca - Chelsea tie people also insisted on the errors that favoured Chelsea. Madrid should get the same treatment. Sure, not all the decisions favoured Madrid, some favoured Bayern.

But the overall picture is that you won because the referees helped you when you needed it the most, at 1-2 at home against a team having momentum. What followed was a false red card and two offside goals. How convenient.
 
Celestiale said:
I completely agree with you.
However the same was the case in the Paris Barca tie. There were quite a lot of the usual Bayern forum warriors (not talking about you, i don't remember the particular names) just boasting around how "Barcelona steamrolled Paris" and stuff like that, while almost nobody mentioned that Paris would've kicked Barca out without that pathetic refereeing (Paris obviously not having the biggest of lobbies in this forum). Now one round further, the same happens to Bayern, and they call to arms against the ref and go absolutely crazy - i think that's a bit duplicitous, don't you? Again, i am not talking about you, no idea what your opinion was about that game, i just talk about the general picture after that tie.
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I thought there were actually a lot of people calling out the suarez dive (or whatever it was, i didn't see the game) on here. I think it's not really about who's the bigger club and has the bigger lobby in a forum like this, it's more about who is generally more disliked and i think Bayern, Barca and Madrid are all quite high in that ranking. Success breeds envy as we all know.
My opinion is that Madrid should have been punished for their ineffectiveness in front of the goal and they would have been but the referee saved their asses.
 
The groupthink that Real and Barcelona and other Spanish teams get decisions their way because of some conspiracy is tedious.

Bayern got handed the wrong decisions yesterday but they also got some decisions. Robben dived for Lewandowski's penalty. Then the Ramos OG was an offside as well. It wasn't biased refereeing that ruined the game. It was just shite refereeing that ruined Bayern
 
Celestiale said:
As i said. I think Real Madrid overall is by far not as bad as Barcelona in that respect. They are at their worst when they encounter Barca in the Classico, because doing the same nonsense is the only way to not get disadvantaged against them (which Real had to learn the hard way a few years back). But while Barcelona is doing it in pretty much every other game, Real rarely resorts to those theatrics.
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That's why as much as I love La Liga I tend to skip El Clasico. Real are usually just your normal team some cheating bastards but nothing compares to the level Barca conjure up every time I see them which has been less and less recently.
 
Not that it mattered at the time, but someone should be fired for that second offside goal....Ronnie might as well of been wearing a Bayern kit.
 
There is no reason not to have video refs at this point. The only situation he could not have changed was Lewandowski´s offside/onside. The most interesting part though is how it would change the yellow/redcard dynamic, cause with it, there is no way the hacker on each team sees the 60th minute.

It might actually result in more goals as teams have to adjust their tactics, cause these calculated risks taken by players that umpires are generally gutless will be challenged. If coaches are awarded challenges those situations will be put under the video microscope, and then the excuses like "didn´t look so bad in real time" or "my view was hindered" won´t fly anymore.
 
Achilles McCool said:
If you are a Bayern fan, then those 2 statements are the same!
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If that were the case, yes surely. But, I am not a Bayern fan.

Even before Vidal's red and Cristiano scoring basically 2 offside goals, the referee was making incorrect calls all over. Neuer had to make a nice stop from a Carvajal shot but it was given as a goal kick. Vidal made small niggling fouls which overtime should accrue yellows. Casemiro was allowed to floor anyone with impunity but he should also have gotten a penalty for his team (if the Robben one counts).
 
Born2Lose said:
Bizarre thread this, Barca and Bayern fans trying to take the moral high ground.




Add in Robben, Ribery, Alba and Suarez and you've got two teams easily as objectionable as Real.

Last night Bayern just lost to better cheats.
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Remind me though, what did our team do to cheat yesterday?
 
Achilles McCool said:
If you are a Bayern fan, then those 2 statements are the same!
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If you are a Bayern fan then you probably don't remember this incident in CL final that Bayern won.

This uncalled penalty tops everything from yesterday and it gave Bayern the CL title.

 
Celestiale said:
I don't think it's a planned conspiracy by the UEFA, at least in recent years. I rather think it's subconscious manipulation of the referee by Spanish teams especially (not only the ref, also the media and the fans in part). It's not even the pure diving and moaning part, the most manipulative is the constant pretending to be seriously hurt.
Players from Barca especially, but also Sevilla, Atletico, and other Spanish teams (not all, i rarely see teams like Bilbao doing it) react like they'd have broken their leg anytime they get touched in the slightest - believe me, i am a footballer myself, and 80% of the fouls where those players roll around and cry like babies you don't even feel during the game. This behavior triggers protection measures on people who watch it - including the ref - and are leading to the ref throwing cards around for every slightest coming together. It was the same case in the first leg from Juventus - Barca, referee throwing cards on Juve for absolutely nothing, if not even fouls from Barcelona (like Sergi Roberto throwing himself into the Juve elbow to trigger a card, which also worked). Me and my buddies watching it were going absolutely mad, despite none of us being a Juve supporter or even sympathizer. Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who don't understand those psychologic tricks and can't comprehend the manipulative way of those teams. This behavior brought especially Barca and Sevilla a lot of glory in recent years - of course it didn't decide every single tie, i don't want to deny them their footballing class - , but ever so often it is the deciding factor in close ties in favour of Spanish teams, as it was just last round for Barcelona. I was really happy seing the Juve players being so unfazed by their theatricals, i would have gone mad if i'd been on the pitch.

In case of yesterday though, you really can't blame Madrid. The situation where Vidal was sent off, the Real player didn't moan or act in any way, and it's not their fault if the linesman can't spot an offside. It was pure and simple a very bad day for the refs.
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Yet we tie for most disciplined team this season in the UCL (by a big margin with the third) and 9th in fouls per game

You put Spanish teams in the same bracket regarding referee help, yet Real Madrid and Atletico have 11 and 9 Yellow Cards less than Barcelona despite having played an extra game, they're 30th and 32th in Fouls per game despite being top 10 in tackles per game, and are also on par with Barcelona in fouled per game, despite having 10% less possession, thus spending 10% less of the game in the better position to get fouled.


You want a scapegoat? Atletico are your go-to choice, despite being one of the visually harsher teams in the competition they get booked and foul less than almost any other team. Atletico see a yellow every 6 fouls, Barcelona 4,5 and Real Madrid 7,6. Atletico commit a foul after 4 tackles, Barcelona 2,3 and Real Madrid 3. Simeone has teached his team how to live on the edge of the rules and if you see them play and then look at their discipline stats it shows crystal-clear.

If you compare basketball and football, in basketball there's usually a correlation between offensive and defensive stats when we talk about dribblers, foulers, possession time... that doesn't happen in football because human factor is way bigger in the calls our refs do, the ref sets the tone of the game based on his opinion and teams play around that, Atletico are masters of that art right now and teams like Barcelona evolved the "constant moan" technique years ago because they found they could tune the ref's opinion towards less contact football doing that. In a perfect world without awful refeering both of these teams would load themselves with cards and eventually the sport would end up winning in pace and rhythm, but right now there are whole football schools that will be prepping kids to play around the refs like that until it stops working
 
gaucho_10 said:
If you are a Bayern fan then you probably don't remember this incident in CL final that Bayern won.


This uncalled penalty tops everything from yesterday and it gave Bayern the CL title.

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That was an outrageous decision. Bayern can feel hard done by yesterday but have definitely had the rub of the green more often than not. Just can't remember too many instance of Real or Barca getting the shaft.
 
Sly said:
Being offside is the new cheating
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Apparently it is. Calling the ref incompetent or even biased is one thing, but calling us cheaters because the ref gave us some dodgy decisions?! I didn't see many of our players rolling around or asking for the opposition to be carded yesterday. Even when Isco got a pretty bad tackle on his ankle from behind, he didn't make a meal out of it. The only moment I saw was Casemiro diving in the box after Boateng's (or was it Alaba?) challenge. And even then there was contact.
 
Look, all the talk about penalties and offside calls are stupid in this instance because over the two legs mistakes were made on both sides

What if Vidal scored the penalty in the first leg? What if the penalty wasn't given? Who's to say the game would have went in the same way then? Same goes for the various offside calls yesterday.

All that stuff falls within human error, it's part of the game and until the VAR is implemented there's nothing else to do but to accept it

The one thing that was unacceptable was Vidal's red card. It completely changed the game and ultimately decided the tie, and it was a case of inconsistent refereeing. That is what makes it unacceptable
 
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