General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[Adisa]

How the feck can someone who opposes Brexit, vote Tory in this situation?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Someone I saw on Facebook put it this way - you're stuck in a plane and the pilot's taking you somewhere you don't want to go. Is it better to replace that person with someone who doesn't know how to fly at all? Most people would say no.

What if they're both bad pilots and the destination you don't want to do to is a giant cliff face?

 

[Kaos]

How the feck can someone who opposes Brexit, vote Tory in this situation?

To finally get rid of Corbyn or something...

 

[Adisa]

Farron did support same sex marriage so unless there's examples to the contrary he keeps his views out of his political decision making. Of course it still doesn't help this thing go away and he will get constant questions about it until the election.

I really don't get the issue. Farron is a Christian and his religion says being gay is a sin. That's his business but he in no way allows it to sway policy on equal rights and opportunities for same sex couples. And rightly so, as religion should play no role in the state.

 

[Drifter]

Are some really voting Tory to get rid of Corbyn?. I know that we became Tory lite under Blair. Guess this may prove it.

 

[Adisa]

To finally get rid of Corbyn or something...

That's daft. And I want rid of Corbyn as much as the next guy.

 

[Unmutual]

How the feck can someone who opposes Brexit, vote Tory in this situation?

I guess there's an argument that whatever you thought about Brexit before the vote, its happening, so maybe you want the strongest character leading the negotiations?

 

[Jippy]

Maybe you both represent a big shy Labour vote!

Interesting thing though, if turnout is low and the result is seen as foregone, and as a result the anti-Corbyn messages aren't as effective as the anti-Miliband ones, could be a surprise result.

It's possible. You'd think people would be wary of blindly believing the polls after recent events. I find it hard to believe there is any great love for May and her government- more that she isn't Corbyn and seems hellbent on a ruinous hard Brexit.

 

[Adisa]

Are some really voting Tory to get rid of Corbyn?

Heard two people on my bus having the conversation. I don't know them, so didn't ask why.

 

[Jippy]

Done.

Cheers!

 

[Adisa]

I guess there's an argument that whatever you thought about Brexit before the vote, its happening, so maybe you want the strongest character leading the negotiations?

I understand voting in as many pro EU tory MPs. However, the bigger her majority...the harder the brexit imo.

 

[Kentonio]

I think you are mistaken. The laws are being transferred in their entirety and will be exactly the same the day after we leave the EU as they were the day before.

How exactly could they be 'exactly the same the day after we leave the EU as they were the day before' when they need to remove any reference to EU regulation, institutions or law? They have to be intepreted, and we're basically trusting the Tories to tell the truth and transition them without any real modification. Except if they don't, and if they decide to start 'tweaking' here and there, we have absolutely no mechanism by which to prevent them.

I seem to remember them claiming regularly that the NHS and education are being funded at 'record levels'. If you think they're suddenly going to be trustworthy when they have an opportunity to completely change the shape of UK employment law, then you're a much more trusting person than I am.

 

[Kaos]

Are some really voting Tory to get rid of Corbyn?. I know that we became Tory lite under Blair. Guess this may prove it.

Pretty much.

They'll then proceed to blame Corbyn during the next 5 years of the Tories bending us over and fecking us to the benefit of their rich mates, despite having voted for them.

 

[Ady87]

Where has the impression come from that Corbyn is lacking intellectually? Of all the things said about him, this one confuses me most.

If I hear 'checks and balances' one more time, I'm going to explode. It's the new 'echo chamber'. In the office here, if you say 'BAU' and other buzz words you get boo'd. I'm going to start booing people that use it for the sake of it.

I guess there's an argument that whatever you thought about Brexit before the vote, its happening, so maybe you want the strongest character leading the negotiations?

And who is the strongest character? Is the strongest character the one that lies, but lies with real conviction and confidence (EG Trump and less so, May) or someone that stands by their convictions through an absolute onslaught of abuse and criticism by most media outlets in the country on a daily basis? (who are only looking out for their own interests anyway).

 

[Sweet Square]

Are some really voting Tory to get rid of Corbyn?. I know that we became Tory lite under Blair. Guess this may prove it.

Pretty much.

They'll then proceed to blame Corbyn during the next 5 years of the Tories bending us over and fecking us to the benefit of their rich mates, despite having voted for them.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

How exactly could they be 'exactly the same the day after we leave the EU as they were the day before' when they need to remove any reference to EU regulation, institutions or law? They have to be intepreted, and we're basically trusting the Tories to tell the truth and transition them without any real modification. Except if they don't, and if they decide to start 'tweaking' here and there, we have absolutely no mechanism by which to prevent them.

I seem to remember them claiming regularly that the NHS and education are being funded at 'record levels'. If you think they're suddenly going to be trustworthy when they have an opportunity to completely change the shape of UK employment law, then you're a much more trusting person than I am.

I think they will be the same for ease of transition than anything else. If you think the Tories are so hell bent on ripping up employee rights then why are the current rights beyond the EU minimum?

 

[Unmutual]

I understand voting in as many pro EU tory MPs. However, the bigger her majority...the harder the brexit imo.

There's a bit of debate about whether that's the case. The argument goes that May is essentially a pragmatic soft-Brexiter like most Tories, but the tiny majority means that a smallish hard Eurosceptic wing in the Tories can make life difficult if they don't get their way. Therefore a larger majority will dilute the ability of the Tory eurosceptics to drive for a hard Brexit.

I'm not really au fait enough with Tory internal politics to know if this is really the case, but it sounds plausible.

 

[altodevil]

"Vote tory to stop the tories". They really have converted the English masses.

 

[Unmutual]

"Vote tory to stop the tories". They really have converted the English masses.

This is what happens when the Opposition is so futile. Internal factions become more powerful.

 

[Kentonio]

I think they will be the same for ease of transition than anything else. If you think the Tories are so hell bent on ripping up employee rights then why are the current rights beyond the EU minimum?

They aren't all beyond the minimum. Remember working time regulations and the opposition from UK government at the time? Working time directive? Agency worker protections? There are so many different rules that put a stop on governments intruding into workers rights and many of them are things that a hard right government would LOVE to see the back off to help them push increasing numbers of people into low paid, low security work.

 

[Sweet Square]

I understand voting in as many pro EU tory MPs. However, the bigger her majority...the harder the brexit imo.

There's a bit of debate about whether that's the case. The argument goes that May is essentially a pragmatic soft-Brexiter like most Tories, but the tiny majority means that a smallish hard Eurosceptic wing in the Tories can make life difficult if they don't get their way. Therefore a larger majority will dilute the ability of the Tory eurosceptics to drive for a hard Brexit.

I'm not really au fait enough with Tory internal politics to know if this is really the case, but it sounds plausible.

Anna Soubry one of the most pro eu tory abstained(Voted against) giving Eu National living in the UK the right to remain.

This is what happens when the Opposition is so futile. Internal factions become more powerful.

Or maybe some people are just stupid. I stepped in dog shit yesterday yet I don't blame the ''lack of an opposition''. Some are just desperate to find a way to vote Tory and are coming up with all manner of stupid reasons.

 

[Kaos]

This is what happens when the Opposition is so futile. Internal factions become more powerful.

And why is the opposition futile? They're offering tangible policies and an actual alternative.

Corbyn being poor opposition is the biggest myth successfully perpetuated by the right wing media.

I thought Brexit was pretty ridiculous, but I've never heard of anything as stupid as voting for the party you despise in order to stop them in the long run. Brits really challenging the Yanks when it comes to political stupidity.

 

[Unmutual]

Anna Soubry one of the most pro eu tory abstained(Voted against) giving Eu National living in the UK the right to remain.

As gross as that may be, the fate of EU nationals isn't really what's referred to in the terms soft vs hard Brexit.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

Someone I saw on Facebook put it this way - you're stuck in a plane and the pilot's taking you somewhere you don't want to go. Is it better to replace that person with someone who doesn't know how to fly at all? Most people would say no.

Except the politician doesn't fly the plane, civil servants do.

 

[Ady87]

This is what happens when the Opposition is so futile. Internal factions become more powerful.

See below.

And why is the opposition futile? They're offering tangible policies and an actual alternative.

Corbyn being poor opposition is the biggest myth successfully perpetuated by the right wing media.

I thought Brexit was pretty ridiculous, but I've never heard of anything as stupid as voting for the party you despise in order to stop them in the long run. Brits really challenging the Yanks when it comes to political stupidity.

Exactly.

What aspect of Corbyn's proposition is futile? What don't people like? By the sounds of social media and those that want aggression, his views on defence/trident genuinely put some people off, but the rest of it seems fair, considerate and calculated when looking at the bigger picture.

It's absolutely 100% personality politics.

 

[oates]

And why is the opposition futile? They're offering tangible policies and an actual alternative.

Corbyn being poor opposition is the biggest myth successfully perpetuated by the right wing media.

I thought Brexit was pretty ridiculous, but I've never heard of anything as stupid as voting for the party you despise in order to stop them in the long run. Brits really challenging the Yanks when it comes to political stupidity.

I agree, you've only to watch PMQs to realise that May can't answer a question to save her life and that Corbyn out debates her which is why she is running scared of head to head debates during the election. The media are determined though not to give Corbyn any credit.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They aren't all beyond the minimum. Remember working time regulations and the opposition from UK government at the time? Working time directive? Agency worker protections? There are so many different rules that put a stop on governments intruding into workers rights and many of them are things that a hard right government would LOVE to see the back off to help them push increasing numbers of people into low paid, low security work.

The Tories also opposed the the minimum wage when it was introduced by Labour yet Osbourne raised it higher than Milliband aimed to at the last election.

This incarnation of the Tories has been markedly less pro business than before because of the impending pension crisis. They now are trying to shift more responsibility onto the toes of business for the long term liquidity of the population. Otherwise government has to foot the bill.

@Kaos

Regarding the competency of Jezza, what is his alternative plan for Brexit exactly?

 

[Sweet Square]

As gross as that may be, the fate of EU nationals isn't really what's referred to in the terms soft vs hard Brexit.

It sort of is. I image someone who was for a soft brexit would like to reassure EU national like myself(And the European Union overall) that they aren't just foreigner hating bigots. Something which Anna Soubry pathetically failed to do.

Anyway how many reason to these people need to give you to show you that they are the absolute pits of this country.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Last election I voted Lib Dems, as a tactical vote for the area I lived, but I'm predominately Conservative. I'm not saying they are perfect and there is plenty of right wing focus that I don't like, i.e. a little too soft on the super rich, but there is logic to this which I will go on to!

The problem with this country is we don't have a sensible party aligned closely to the middle, or certainly not with any chance of a meaningful vote.

Conservatives and Labour have both pulled towards the centre in the last 20-30 years, but Conservatives are on the more logically economically sound side of centre.

The problem about Labour voters is there is an emotional stigma attached to voting Labour that takes aside all economic logic.

The best way to describe Labour is like a loan shark. They allow you to buy a load of public service jobs and give pay rises to the NHS, etc. The problem is the loan shark keeps chipping away and ultimately means that money that might have gone to public services ends up going to the loan shark. Now in the short term that might not matter, as Labour are so keen to show themselves as being the kind generous party, but you can't hide from those debts and they eventually swallow you up!

Put another way if you earn £100 a month, at the end of the year you will have £1,200. If you don't have to outlay any cost on interest on loans that means you have £1,200 to spend on anything you like. If you have loans you'll have interest to pay and thus your spending will be less. This is taking a simple view of paying back the loan in the same year, but it applies on a grander scale. Bottom line interest is bad unless you get a return that more than outweighs that interest, e.g. investing in businesses that generate a positive return that outstrips the interest is a worthwhile use of interest. Paying public services predominately will not provide a return to the government pot.

The other side of emotion around the conservatives is the protection of the super rich, which I mentioned in the first sentence. The problem with getting annoyed about this is that the reverse of taxing the rich doesn't actually work most of the time. Extra tax on the rich or on businesses often results in them deciding it's a good time to move to another country or to rearrange their finances to protect their wealth. The rich are the most location free individuals. It actually makes more sense to tax them lowly and get something than to try and overtax and get almost nothing.

So there we have it the most simple explanation of Labour vs Conservatives. Bottom line Labour doesn't work, Conservatives are much closer to a model that does work. Neither are perfect, but simply put one government and one country can't make a perfect Robin Hood system that balances wealth in a fair way.

What there needs to be is a worldwide cap on wealth. No one needs to have multiple billions! I get the argument that these people are often obsessed with creating new companies and new wealth and help the world go round, but there are certainly some out there who just invest in massive houses, many cars, etc. Again spending money does help the world go round as well, but is this really a fair distribution of wealth. All the oil barons for example are just exploiting natural resource. They may have invested a bit in exploration and machinery, but the resource is a resource of the world and they are clearly getting an unfair cut of this. But this side of things is a whole big problem outside of what Labour vs Conservatives are ever likely to resolve!

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

All EU law is being transferred into UK law initially and from what David Davis is saying that is at least until a new trade deal with the EU is arranged.

On the Brexit issue in isolation I trust the Tories to handle it better than Corbyn's Labour. Regarding overarching ideology then no.

The Brexit deal is the most crucial event in British politics since WW2. Labour haven't even detailed a serious plan for the deal and Corbyn doesn't even seem interested in engaging with the issue seriously FFS! Add to that the Labour party being badly fractured from within.

Regarding employee rights, if in future the Tories do start policies to erode them, I believe that would be the centre or left's best avenue to start challenging them again.

Neither have the Tories, other than limiting migration, which will force us out of the single market. And 'getting the best deal we can', which translates to 'a pretty shit deal' but less EU immigration.

Other than that all the specifics of any deal will be done by 1000s of civil servants. Both parties offer the same deal, hard Brexit and probably no trade deal anytime soon. The EU aren't even willing to discuss trade until after we've agreed divorce agreements so we can't even use them as trading chips.

 

[Tarrou]

I don't have a political allegiance in the UK (mainly because I haven't lived there for so long) but the way the media frames this as "Corbyn/Labour can't win" is exactly the same as how the US media portrayed Bernie in the lead up to the primaries. It might be true but I hate them for reporting a democratic election in this manner because it encourages voter apathy. Why can't our media focus on policy and open up some discourse on the topics that are important to people?

If the Tories win this by a landslide we're absolutely fecked.

 

[Kaos]

The Tories also opposed the the minimum wage when it was introduced by Labour yet Osbourne raised it higher than Milliband aimed to at the last election.

This incarnation of the Tories has been markedly less pro business than before because of the impending pension crisis. They now are trying to shift more responsibility onto the toes of business for the long term liquidity of the population. Otherwise government has to foot the bill.

@Kaos

Regarding the competency of Jezza, what is his alternative plan for Brexit exactly?

Let's be real, there's no alternative to Brexit considering that article 50 has been triggered, and as stupid of a decision I believe it is, I do believe in democracy and think we should honour it. The best we can hope for are negotiating terms which benefit the UK in the least damaging way possible. Corbyn has insisted Labour would vote against any final deal that would involve Britain leaving the single market, which is a stern alternative to the Tory fetish with a hard brexit, which the majority of people who voted leave don't understand the implications of.

The Lib Dem promise to turn it all back is pipe-dream nonsense and a desperate maneuver to make them relevant again by clawing back a few seats by appealing to remainers. They obviously aren't going to win the election, so a protest vote for them is hardly going to do anything for the negotiation process. The most pragmatic thing a remainer can do is to vote tactically, ensuring the Tories do not get a majority, which hopefully leads to the formation of a progressive alliance that can actually negotiate a deal that doesn't involve us crippling ourselves to appease the Little Englanders and the Mail/Sun demographic as this current government seems to be doing.

Also, as huge as an issue Brexit is, there also are other big issues to focus on in this election which I fear will be swept to the sidelines - namely the cuts which have severely targeted our elderly and most vulnerable, the covert privitsation of the NHS and the government's insistence on capitulating towards the richest at the expense of the poor.

 

[Abizzz]

Why can't our media focus on policy and open up some discourse on the topics that are important to people?

Because the media narrative is dictated by Murdoch and he's hellbent on getting the UK as far away from the EU as possible (to increase his own influence more than anything).

The UK could have a referendum on eating babies and Murdoch would still somehow manage to make everyone say "Both sides have their points.".

 

[Kaos]

I don't have a political allegiance in the UK (mainly because I haven't lived there for so long) but the way the media frames this as "Corbyn/Labour can't win" is exactly the same as how the US media portrayed Bernie in the lead up to the primaries. It might be true but I hate them for reporting a democratic election in this manner. Why can't our media focus on policy and open up some discourse on the topics that are important to people?

If the Tories win this by a landslide we're absolutely fecked.

The UK media is vehemently right-wing, and essentially monopolised by an unholy cartel of Murdoch's gutter rags and Dacre's Little Englander propaganda. Its no surprise that even some posters here have been echoing their tune.

 

[Skills]

My main issue with Corbyn and Brexit is that I don't believe he has the intellectual capacity to understand all the complex issues involved. You hear him talk about Brexit now or during the referendum and he's either very uncomfortable or goes back to his stump speech about workers rights and the Tories turning Britain into a tax haven. Both are important issues but aren't really anything to do with the negotiations, nor is either a realistic possibility - they would amount to electoral suicide. The complexities of what needs to be agreed are frankly staggering, and every article I read that further highlights what we're likely to lose when we finally leave should be used every single day as an attack against the Tory government. He either doesn't understand, or doesn't care about the clear risks within Brexit as I've never heard him persuadably argue them. Most likely it's a combination of the two.

The main loss obviously being the single market, where Corbyn and McDonnell are at best just agnostic, and only historically hostile. This is a ludicrous perspective to have, and flies in the face of any rational analysis. That they aren't attacking the government for allowing us to sleepwalk out of the largest free trade block in the world is reckless and unforgivable. I can't wait until he leaves the party.

Neither does May. If you have any confidence in her competence with this entire matter, it's just worth remembering she made Boris Johnson the foreign secretary.

 

[Unmutual]

And why is the opposition futile? They're offering tangible policies and an actual alternative.

Corbyn being poor opposition is the biggest myth successfully perpetuated by the right wing media.

I thought Brexit was pretty ridiculous, but I've never heard of anything as stupid as voting for the party you despise in order to stop them in the long run. Brits really challenging the Yanks when it comes to political stupidity.

Firstly, if you think what we've seen from Labour over the last 18 months or so has been effective, well, that's your opinion (man). Personally I think Labour is a shambles right now at the strategic, organisational & operational level. But either way, don't be this guy



It is possible to have an informed view & think Corbyn has been failing.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

Last election I voted Lib Dems, as a tactical vote for the area I lived, but I'm predominately Conservative. I'm not saying they are perfect and there is plenty of right wing focus that I don't like, i.e. a little too soft on the super rich, but there is logic to this which I will go on to!

The problem with this country is we don't have a sensible party aligned closely to the middle, or certainly not with any chance of a meaningful vote.

Conservatives and Labour have both pulled towards the centre in the last 20-30 years, but Conservatives are on the more logically economically sound side of centre.

The problem about Labour voters is there is an emotional stigma attached to voting Labour that takes aside all economic logic.

The best way to describe Labour is like a loan shark. They allow you to buy a load of public service jobs and give pay rises to the NHS, etc. The problem is the loan shark keeps chipping away and ultimately means that money that might have gone to public services ends up going to the loan shark. Now in the short term that might not matter, as Labour are so keen to show themselves as being the kind generous party, but you can't hide from those debts and they eventually swallow you up!

Put another way if you earn £100 a month, at the end of the year you will have £1,200. If you don't have to outlay any cost on interest on loans that means you have £1,200 to spend on anything you like. If you have loans you'll have interest to pay and thus your spending will be less. This is taking a simple view of paying back the loan in the same year, but it applies on a grander scale. Bottom line interest is bad unless you get a return that more than outweighs that interest, e.g. investing in businesses that generate a positive return that outstrips the interest is a worthwhile use of interest. Paying public services predominately will not provide a return to the government pot.

The other side of emotion around the conservatives is the protection of the super rich, which I mentioned in the first sentence. The problem with getting annoyed about this is that the reverse of taxing the rich doesn't actually work most of the time. Extra tax on the rich or on businesses often results in them deciding it's a good time to move to another country or to rearrange their finances to protect their wealth. The rich are the most location free individuals. It actually makes more sense to tax them lowly and get something than to try and overtax and get almost nothing.

So there we have it the most simple explanation of Labour vs Conservatives. Bottom line Labour doesn't work, Conservatives are much closer to a model that does work. Neither are perfect, but simply put one government and one country can't make a perfect Robin Hood system that balances wealth in a fair way.

What there needs to be is a worldwide cap on wealth. No one needs to have multiple billions! I get the argument that these people are often obsessed with creating new companies and new wealth and help the world go round, but there are certainly some out there who just invest in massive houses, many cars, etc. Again spending money does help the world go round as well, but is this really a fair distribution of wealth. All the oil barons for example are just exploiting natural resource. They may have invested a bit in exploration and machinery, but the resource is a resource of the world and they are clearly getting an unfair cut of this. But this side of things is a whole big problem outside of what Labour vs Conservatives are ever likely to resolve!

You could perhaps tax luxuries such as expensive cars at higher rates and have a mansion tax. You could threaten to make it a legal requirement for ISPs to block websites like Ebay and Amazon unless higher taxes are collected from those companies. There are things that could be done that aren't.

You can argue the Tory model works but for who? Not the majority. And not for the NHS and Schools which have deteriated. No we shouldn't borrow to spend, we should tax and spend. And socialism does work in Denmark and Sweden.

 

[Kaos]

Firstly, if you think what we've seen from Labour over the last 18 months or so has been effective, well, that's your opinion (man). Personally I think Labour is a shambles right now at the strategic, organisational & operational level. But either way, don't be this guy



It is possible to have an informed view & think Corbyn has been failing.

Why the hyperbole? I don't necessarily think Corbyn is the best thing to have happened to this country, and believe it or not there are a few things I think he's handled poorly as Labour leader (namely the three line whip regarding article 50 and the Livingstone debacle), but I do believe his Labour party DOES offer an alternative to the macabre forecast we have with the Tories in government. And while I try to detach personality away from the politics, I honestly think I believe Corbyn as an individual resonates more with me than that sociopath we have in no.10 at the moment.

 

[Unmutual]

Why the hyperbole? I don't necessarily think Corbyn is the best thing to have happened to this country, and believe it or not there are a few things I think he's handled poorly as Labour leader (namely the three line whip regarding article 50 and the Livingstone debacle), but I do believe his Labour party DOES offer an alternative to the macabre forecast we have with the Tories in government. And while I try to detach personality away from the politics, I honestly think I believe Corbyn as an individual resonates more with me than that sociopath we have in no.10 at the moment.

Its a parody account, but it lampoons a running theme. I have no problem with you being inspired by Corbyn, but rather the idea that anyone that disagrees is because they believe a myth perpetuated by the right wing media.

 

[altodevil]

http://ilikecorbynbut.com/