May 21: FC Barcelona confirm they will announce a new manager on May 29.
May 22: David Moyes resigns as the manager of Sunderland AFC
Coincidence?
May 22: David Moyes resigns as the manager of Sunderland AFC
Coincidence?
David Moyes | West Ham in talks with him for managerial job
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I still think of that Chosen One banner and cringe. What happened to the bloody thing anyway, wasn't there talk of it going to a museum?
Very true.
Listening to him you rarely get a positive vibe from him. Jose can be a miserable sod sometimes but theres a whiff of arogance and confidence in him that makes you think everything will eventually be ok.
If I was a player - or a fan of a club he was managing - Moyes would knock the stuffing out of me with his downbeat demeanour. He just looks tired and worn out.
Yeah, instead of Greizmann, we'd have people watching talk shows featuring Osman.
If your point is to highlight how stats can be misleading, I agree.
How do you say the chosen one in Spanish?
Moyes had a title winning squad whats your point?
Reporter: So, what chances that you will sign for Manchester United?
Osman: What, there's a chance?!
On the bright side, we'd atleast get tonnes of reports about us scouting unearthed gems like Kroos and Fabregas.
250 million pounds spent. You're right it's not comparable.
That is just stupid.
I could try and explain that context in football is important, but I fear I would just be wasting my time.
But lets just throw around numbers though.
If you look at it strictly from a points of view, then yes.
But when you consider that we could the holders of three trophies tomorrow night with improvements since then, and compare it to that season, then its not even comparable.
The biggest risk with Moyes wasn't just how bad things where at the time, its that all the evidence pointed to it getting even worse. He had 70 mil pounds to spend, which was a lot of money then, and spent it on two players that he then played out of position.
Just consider that season and all the records that fell. It wasnt just that we were losing games, it was that we were beaten even before games started. That level of Moyes negativity kills a club.
Statistics without context arent a good argument at all.
I couldn't believe it at the time and now its even more bizarre....how the feck did he ever get the job. I remember when the SAF retirement news broke late at night and Moyes shot straight in as odds on favourite it made me sick to my stomach.
He will struggle to get a job in the premiership now and from what I hear Sunderland wanted to keep him, he should have probably tried to get them back up they will be one of the favourites to get promoted surely.
He will struggle to get a job in the premiership now and from what I hear Sunderland wanted to keep him, he should have probably tried to get them back up they will be one of the favourites to get promoted surely.
They really didnt though. Initially they were a long ball team but for a 2 or 3 year spell towards the end of his term there, they played some nice stuff, but when those players couldnt keep doing it, he didnt seem capable of maintaining that style and reverted to type. Its why I was always baffled we appointed him, for all the talk of him replacing Fergie a few years earlier, he was already looking like a busted flush with Everton by the end. And Utd was just too big a job for him.
Most club owners would find that number pretty significant even if you don't. You can put it into whatever context you like but the fact is that three years after his departure we're marginally better off on points, no better off in terms of league position and the season will now probably be judged solely on this EL final which we've just scraped into despite playing much smaller clubs.
But.... You don't need bother explain anything. It's great if you feel good about where we stand.
Context maybe important, but the only reason there are no resonating sounds of Mourinho heading for the sack is because of EL. He realizes how important the match against Ajax is. Technically, as a team, we have indeed improved, but it took a load of investment to make those improvements. That can't be ignored, put it in any context you wish. If he doesn't challenge for the title next season, Mourinho may not have a job.
He chewed off his limbs.
I dont think anyone is arguing that this has been a great season. Its not, and plenty of work needs to be done yet.
But to compare it to Moyes United is quite frankly just stupid. That was a team going nowhere very fast. And it was getting worse, that is the main point I am trying to emphasize. That is why Moyes got the can. They realised he was not suited for the job, and corrected thrir mistake by firing him.
Im actually a bit disappointed. The fun was gone after it was so obvious he was gonna get relegated. Would've loved to see him struggle some more in the Championship.
Anyone who looks at the game as binary as "250m spent and nowhere further" doesn't deserve much of a response tbh.
Ignoring completely that another manager came, brought his philosophy and fecked up whilst ageing players got another 2 years older. Any manager, regardless of mourinho of someone else, would need heavy investment to bring his own players and replace deadweight. No manager would be expected to bring immediate results either. Especially with the amount of games Man Utd were committed to this season.
But yeah, let's just stick to 250m spent, ignore everything else and sound like the inept Jamie Redknapp and Paul Mersons of this world instead.
I never said that.
I said that you cannot compare this season to Moyes one.
I dont think this has been a a great season. But the Moyes one was awful. And giving him that 150 mil to spend like had been promised wouldnt have made it any better.
I really dont get it. David Moyes has shown since he left here that he wasnt suited to the job. Van Gaal's and Mourinho's failings do not show otherwise, especially as LVG largely failed with completely different players.
This.
Its things like this and the "Pogba cost 90 mil and is thus a flop" without any thought process attached to it that annoy me.
It's a matter of fine margins imo. United were so close to knocking out Bayern in the UCL. Not saying, we would have gone onto win or that there were improvements under Moyes, there weren't and like you said he wasn't suited to the job. But the investments each manager has put into the club can't be ignored. Mourinho did infact spend 200 m + on players, only 25% of which was used by Moyes. If you look at it from a business perspective, the ROI on Mourinho's investments haven't been great. It's been ok. Next season is make or break for him. I don't find the comparisons to be silly. Yes, it can get exaggerated and extrapolated a lot which makes for pointless reading, but you get tidbits of useful information from some of these comparisons.
With Moyes, I think he did the hard yards at Everton, turned it into a nice comfortable gig and got complacent and lazy. He now doesn't seem to have the hunger to put the hard yards in again.
I think he feels he has "paid his dues" and now should walk into top jobs where the funds he has mean it's an easy gig. When he was appointed United manager his reaction seemed more that he'd made it to easy street rather than he had been given the opportunity of his career and he now had to work harder than ever. Being appointed in May, going on holiday and then "running out of time" in his first window was negligent.
Unfortunately, for someone like him with no charisma or contacts in/knowledge of the transfer market, he is not capable of coming into a new club and making a big difference straight away and in his last three jobs there were no signs that he was building anything that suggested a long term improvement.
He hasn't got the ability to be a short term success or the hunger to be a long term success. Losing the hunger is no big surprise. People's life circumstances change and he most likely is rich enough to never have to work hard again. It just makes it extremely unlikely he will ever be a successful manager again.
All he has going for him now is a history of doing well "long-term" so any club stupid enough to appoint him will give him a long term contract and he can get more compensation when they realise how bad he is.
I think he feels he has "paid his dues" and now should walk into top jobs where the funds he has mean it's an easy gig. When he was appointed United manager his reaction seemed more that he'd made it to easy street rather than he had been given the opportunity of his career and he now had to work harder than ever. Being appointed in May, going on holiday and then "running out of time" in his first window was negligent.
Unfortunately, for someone like him with no charisma or contacts in/knowledge of the transfer market, he is not capable of coming into a new club and making a big difference straight away and in his last three jobs there were no signs that he was building anything that suggested a long term improvement.
He hasn't got the ability to be a short term success or the hunger to be a long term success. Losing the hunger is no big surprise. People's life circumstances change and he most likely is rich enough to never have to work hard again. It just makes it extremely unlikely he will ever be a successful manager again.
All he has going for him now is a history of doing well "long-term" so any club stupid enough to appoint him will give him a long term contract and he can get more compensation when they realise how bad he is.
There is so much wrong with this post in my opinion. Firstly even if Moyes bundled through Bayern, that doesn't mean his campaign was a success. He was dogshite throughout, he didn't look at the areas that needed improvement and he single handedly managed to regress the mentality of what was recently a title winning squad. If you want to monetise how much that set us back, you'd be looking at figures far higher than Mourinho's investments this season.
A vital part of management is to look at the areas needing improvement and work on them. Moyes' inept transfer dealings is part of his own downfall (amongst many others). He gave Rooney a 5 year contract when he obviously had 1-2 seasons left in him and he went out and bought Fellaini because he couldn't tie down Herrera whilst ignoring Thiago. Money spent has little to do with it - I'd rather overpay and get the right player than under pay and get someone shite we try and find a place for over 3 season (Fellaini). This is aside from the fact that the man had zero tactical knowledge to utilise his players in the first place.
As for ROI. Its a bizzare manner of looking at ROI in terms of Mourinho's signings but lets evaluate them. Zlatan's has been great, Bailly's has been great. Mkhitaryan and Pogba's have been so so, but they are here for multiple seasons. They were better than the previous turd in that position (Depay, Schneiderlin et al.) so I'm not sure why you're complaining of ROI.
You also can't limit the ROI for just one season and judge signings when you know there will be higher expected returns as seasons progress. Mourinho had money to spend and so did Moyes. Moyes never spent it and regressed the mentality of our squad, brought us well outside of top 4 by March and left an absolute mess for the next manager.
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We werent close to knocking out Bayern. Led for all but 90 seconds. We were actually much closer to being knocked out by Olimpiakos, who actually outlclassed us in the first leg.
And all the signings that Jose that Jose has bought have actually improved us.That's the return on the investment.
I feel like you just want to have a pop at Jose over an admittedly poor season, but its not even close to comparable to David Moyes, and are trying to use that to strengthen your point. Whether next season is make or break for him is an entirely different argument( which I think is your entire argument, with the David Moyes thing just being a sidetrack)
I don't think I'm ignoring anything but rather acknowledging that the club has made serious investments in personnel which wasn't done under the tenure of Moyes. The squad inherited by Moyes wasn't exactly perfect either. Yes Mourinho was always going to clear out but I didn't expect that to happen mid season, since you mention the games we were committed to - which shouldn't by the way be news to a club of this size.
You want highlight the "250m spent" comment I made and you state I'm ignoring everything else. Meanwhile, you seem to be willing to ignore or downgrade the significance of the investment made and the progress tied to it.
But I'll leave it there. Not really a fan of rude dialogs.
I never said Moyes would have been a success if he beat Bayern, but that would have been an achievements people would have remembered him for like how LvG's remembered mostly (Footballing wise, not the drunk rant at the end of season awards) his displays against Liverpool, Spurs and City.
If you monetize how much Moyes spent, I agree it's a lot, but it's still nowhere close to the expenses Mourinho has incurred. Moyes was manager at a time when there were lots of players on huge paychecks. Vidic, Ferdinand, Rooney (Yes, Stupid decision btw), Nani, RvP, being just a few examples.
I know everyone hates Fellaini and some people are always too stubborn (Not suggesting you are), but he's being relied on heavily by Mourinho. That's two managers now (LvG, Mou) that have felt he has an important role to contribute in the short term goals of the team. And even though, you called Moyes's transfer dealings as inept, he did sign two players who were being trusted by the previous manager and the current one (Mata maybe not so much). So whilst he didn't get the players he wanted, the one's he signed haven't been too bad. Mata from what I read, had a better Goal Scoring ratio at United than at Chelsea. Agree that Mou's transfer dealings are yet to be fully evaluated, but as it stands, he's done average or above average so far. No doubt, it will improve for the likes of Mkhi and Pogba.
ROI individually, yeah, Zlatan and Bailly have been smart deals. Even Pogba has been a good buy (We look dire without him). Like I said individually, they Mou has bought well. But as a team, we have been underwhelming. It's one of the jobs of the manager to bed all the new signings with existing one's and in that respect, I think Mou has failed. That's why I rated his transfer business as ok.
The bold part is contradicting.
Nowhere in your post did you actually look at the style of play, mentality or tactically inept use of Moyes' management. You were too busy driving the point home about who spent what. Although if you did I apologise.
Mourinho cleared out after he brought players in. Yeah he shouldn't have sold Schneiderlin on hindsight (I think Depay was right to leave and Schweinstiger because he was being forced regardless) but that's not even an issue worth debating much.
And progress: we look far better in our general play, we create far more chances, we can see a better mentality in the players and we threw the league because injuries/fixture pileups made it too risky to focus on both. Despite that we were 1-2 point off Liverpool (who had no European games all season) or City (who spent the most in the league) all the way until the Swansea game a couple weeks ago. So yeah, that's pretty good progress for a manager's first season. He might end it with Champions League qualification and 2 trophies.
If you want to critique the 250m point then by all means go ahead (he spent 150), but he addressed areas that needed strengthening. Any manager would have done it and no team gels from the off, barring Conte in a surprising season.
Fair enough. I see the glass half full wrt the Bayern game.
They have improved us ? Yes, individually, they have all been fine (Mkhi maybe a slight exception), but as a team, we haven't finished our chances, which is why we finished 6th. It could have easily been a top 3 finish if we were more clinical. Like I said, it's a matter of small margins.
I'm not having a pop at Mourinho. I like him and fully believe he will get us back to where we belong. My point was only that, comparing Moyes and Jose's transfer dealings is not entirely ludicrous. It does have it's merits.
True, Hughes destroyed QPR his signings in his second season were criminal.
So he knows how to resign..
LVG performed in big games quite consistently (one of his advantages as a manager). Moyes never did. Fluking through Bayern once would not be comparable to convincingly beating a range of top teams again and again. We look back on LVG being a big game performer for us because he did it quite a few times. If Moyes beat Bayern it would have just been seen as a freak result.
I didn't say to monetise how much Moyes spent, I said monetaise how much Moyes actually regressed us as a team. He killed our mentality, confidence, tactics and European threat in a single season. The damage was always going to take years to fix and is far more costly than Mourinho spending £150m on a squad desperately needing investment.
Mourinho has normally had a starting 3 of Carrick Pogba and Herrera this season. The fact that he trusts a 36 year old over Fellaini sums it up. Honestly the only reason Fellaini plays for us is because we need to rotate and he's a good target man. I think he's a decent player but should never be deployed at a top club because he isn't good enough. Mata was widely regarded as an Ed Woodward board signing rather than a Moyes one. At that stage it was damage limitation by way of manager transfers and the chairman had to step in.
You should know better than to judge team cohesion from a single season (where all new transfers have barely played a season under a the manager, who is also new to the club). Despite that I'd argue we still created enough to comfortably finish in the top 4. If we didn't have the pileup of fixtures and injuries to go with it, I think we would have made top 4 too.
Gold.
Whenever anyone feels the need to compare Moyes season to another United's managers on points tally alone as some sort of defence of Moyes record. I always think our actual results that year should be pointed out for context. Our results vs top 10 & bottom 10, as you can see not only was our form against the good to decent teams in the league atrocious. But its clear we picked up the bast majority of our points that year against the bottom half teams.
For me that means this was a title winning team that accumulated 89 points the previous two seasons who could win when they were by far the better side. But whenever they came up against not even good teams but just decent ones also when tactics come into play and a good manager with the right tactics can make the difference we failed horribly almost every time.
The point is our points total that year had very little to do with Moyes, so comparing that points total to other seasons is meaningless.
Form vs Top 10 & Bottom 10
01 MU 0 - 0 Chelsea-----------------01 MU 4 - 1 Swansea City
02 MU 0 - 1 Liverpool----------------02 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
03 MU 1 - 4 Manchester City---------03 MU 1 - 2 West Bromwich Albion
04 MU 1 - 1 Southampton------------04 MU 2 - 1 Sunderland
05 MU 3 - 2 Stoke City---------------05 MU 3 - 1 Fulham
06 MU 1 - 0 Arsenal------------------06 MU 2 - 2 Cardiff City
07 MU 2 - 2 Tottenham--------------07 MU 3 - 0 Aston Villa
08 MU 0 - 1 Everton-----------------08 MU 3 - 1 West Ham United
09 MU 0 - 1 Newcastle United-------09 MU 3 - 2 Hull City
10 MU 1 - 2 Tottenham--------------10 MU 1 - 0 Norwich City
11 MU 1 - 3 Chelsea-----------------11 MU 2 - 0 Swansea City
12 MU 1 - 2 Stoke City--------------12 MU 2 - 0 Cardiff City
13 MU 0 - 0 Arsenal-----------------13 MU 2 - 2 Fulham
14 MU 0 - 3 Liverpool----------------14 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
15 MU 0 - 3 Manchester City--------15 MU 3 - 0 West Brom
16 MU 4 - 0 Newcastle---------------16 MU 2 - 0 West Ham
17 MU 0 - 2 Everton------------------17 MU 4 - 1 Aston Villa
18 MU 1 - 1 Southampton-----------18 MU 4 - 0 Norwich
----------------------------------------19 MU 0 - 1 Sunderland
----------------------------------------20 MU 3 - 1 Hull City
P: 18 W: 03 D: 05 L: 10------------------P: 20 W: 16 D: 02 L: 02
GF: 16 GA: 28 GD: -12-------------------GF: 48 GA: 15 GD: +33
14 PTS From possible 54 PTS------------50 PTS From possible 60 PTS
Ban for using a reasoned argument tbqfh.
I can believe that some people are still, apparently, trying to defend Moyes. Why would you defend someone who, in the space of about 3 or 4 months, destroyed what SAF built up over 25 years.
This was the time I started to hate Moyes at United,he was tactically inapt to lead side like Manchester United.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/26004451
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/26004451
The bold part is not contradicting. I'm pointing out that the whole issue you've taken with my point of view is that I've brought money into the equation.
And my purpose was not to raise the profile of Moyes management, hence no need to look into that. I do believe we're in better hands now than then and I do believe we're gong forward. Style of play is subjective but for the most parts I agree, we are playing more free-flowing football. Money needed to be spent.
So when stating Moyes and Mourinhos seasons are uncomparable (which they are and that's where all of this started) I think it's fair to take into consideration the difference in resources between the two of them, however inept you believe Moyes was.
Moyes has resources, he chose not to spend. He also had RvP, Nani and Hernandez.. Who I think Mourinho would have better utilised.
If and buts though, let's just agree to disagree on the resources point. I don't think Mourinhos performances has anything to do with the money spent. If he had the Moyes squad, he'd still make us look better than Moyes ever did.