Incident on London Bridge

Dumat12 said:
Almost everything I said was pure fantasy and nothing of what I wanted will happen anytime soon, if ever. But that's the only solution.
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The only solution is to totally disengage from the middle east, that includes economically and diplomatically. Cancel all the arms contracts and oil contracts and let the gangsters fight it out amongst themselves.
 
Dumat12 said:
Are we really going to go down that route? Do you know that they still stone women in the Middle East if they don't act "right" enough? Do you know that "honor killing" in Muslim countries is a thing and is perfectly normal? The fact that women aren't allowed many basic freedoms and that they could be raped and still be found guilty? I mean I can go on and on, but I think you get the picture.
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As you have already been put straight regarding the honor killings. Saudi Arabia are the only Muslim country who have the stoning law. You seem hyperbolic and agenda driven.
 
More maniacs killing in the name of religion. feck this world.
 
Cheesy said:
Re the bolded, it has, though. Hitler was a Christian. His own private views were largely conflicting and it's likely he used this as more of a rhetoric than anything else, but in the most basic sense of the word he came from a Christian background. Similarly, plenty will argue that perpetrators of Islamic terrorism are using their views as a religious front. Christians in the US systematically oppressed ethnic minorities for generations and were lynching/oppressing them barely over half a century ago. Breivik was a far-right Christian. The church have systemically committed abuse, often at a high level, and have often used their religious views to protect their own status/position. Again, the actual religiosity of such figures is often tenuous at best...but then the same can be said for many of the "lone wolf" attackers who have often been distant from the religion and find themselves drawn back to it as they become radicalised.
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Strawman arguments. Hitler wasn't really a Christian, he praised Islam greatly. Furthemore i'm not saying that every who follows Islam or comes from Islamic background is terrorist, I'm saying there is a problem in the religion as a whole and it needs to undergo a reformation in order to fit with the modern world.

And as I said, going by your logic Muslims have oppressed Christians in their lands for centuries, and they are still oppressing them. Just look at what's happening in Egypt with the Copts. But that's not what we're talking about, are we? We're talking about Islamic terrorism.

That's obviously naturally very different to the current problem we face, and the issue within Britain right now - although even here we saw an MP murdered by a far-right terrorist last year.
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Which had nothing to do with Christianity. You seem to be mistaking "far-right nationalism" with Christianity.

Again, I'm happily willing to condemn elements of Islam. While I think most of the comments highlighting good, positive passages in Islamic scripture are well-natured, I also think that if we're going to highlight such passages we also need to be equally willing to examine the negative scripture within the religion that can influence terrorists.

On the integration problem, again - I'll agree with the problem, but I think you're partly generalising. They refers to a large group of the British population and essentially groups them into one stereotype; again, it may apply to certain portions of the Muslim population, but even the religions harshest critic would also surely acknowledge that tons have been willing to integrate. And while there should be an expectation on those who come to Western nations to adapt to the countries they're entering, we're equally not helping on our side if we're going to group them into one convenient mass stereotype.
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Many things are done to help them integrate - welfare, special help in all forms, etc, but when a person just doesn't want to integrate and he finds the people of he country that he migrated into as "disgusting imperialists", it just won't happen.

Habs said:
Many of your posts seem to be ill informed, but ill draw your attention to the "honor killings". These have nothing to do with religion but are actually based on cultural beliefs particularly in Asia, hence you will see many honor killings in countries like India, which if youre not sure, isnt a muslim country. I understand you have views and opinions on certain matters, but alot of what youre saying isnt the reality
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Why do they keep happening in almost every Muslim country then? And majority of Moslems are in Asia, so I don't get your point.

2mufc0 said:
As you have already been put straight regarding the honor killings. Saudi Arabia are the only Muslim country who have the stoning law. You seem hyperbolic and agenda driven.
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Stoning is called rajm (Arabic: رجم) in Islamic literature, and is a practice found in the United Arab Emirates, Iran, Iraq, Qatar, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, northern Nigeria, Aceh Province of Indonesia, Afghanistan, and tribal parts of Pakistan, like northwest Kurram Valley and the northwest Khwezai-Baezai region.[1][2][3] In some countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning has been declared illegal by the state, but is practiced extrajudiciall

And i'm not agenda driven at all, as I said I'm neither Christian nor Muslim or anything else. I just see the problem.
 
Randall Flagg said:
I don't like abortion and am not in the slightest bit religious
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Like is different. I doubt anyone likes it but that doesn't make you anti-abortion. Unless you have a religious based view of what constitutes life or a person then why would you be actually anti-abortion (which implies banning it).
 
pocco said:
Why are the Saudis preaching to attack us if we are in economic cahoots with them?
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They're not, despite the popular belief that it's all about the Wahabis, this extreme political Islam actually originates from Egypt, although is influenced by wahabi thought.
 
So we're just ignoring the usual rule of leaving debate to another time and thread whilst there is an ongoing incident?
 
Dumat12 said:
I'm really sorry, but Islam was formed by a warlord that mainly expanded his religion through conquest. It's in the basis of said religion to be this way. They are not hiding behind anything, eveything they do is written in teh Quran


Born to refugee parents. They obviously weren't raised right. You don't hear Christian immigrants doing this, do you?

And for the record, I don't believe in any religion or any god. But Christianity is not a problem... Islam is. It needs to be reformed.
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For me that is such a simplistic way of looking at the issue.

Islam in of itself is not the issue. Islam has existed since 600ad - was there always a terrorism problem? Of course not and even a religion like Sikhism has an element of self defence and fighting for religion if it is under attack.

Root causes are British imperialism, creation of the state of Israel, gulf war, war on terror and war on Iraq/Libya.

Ask most Muslims even the very moderates about how they feel about British and American foreign policy in the Middle East and there will deep down be feelings of resentment and almost feelings of being victimised. Now magnify that across one billion people and of course you'll push unhinged idiots into wanting to exact revenge or influencing vulnerable people into carrying out acts of revenge on their behalf.

It's not about justifying acts of terrorism but if people want to talk about saying it like it is, then you have to be upfront and I am pretty confident most Muslims pre 9/11 probably were a tad miffed about Palestine but weren't that directly affected by it or cared. Post 9/11, post Iraq etc suddenly every Muslim has a negative impression of British foreign policy and that creates the breeding ground for terror.

Right so we have identified the root causes but what do we do now? Is it too late to win favour with the Muslim community and convince radicals that Britain doesn't deserve to have terror attacks carried out in its lands?

I think we are beyond that point. Therefore do muslims need to be scrutinised? Are they more likely to be terrorists? Yes and we shouldn't apologise for stating that. But can we stop the terror threat effectively without their full cooperation - no.

Therefore dialogue needs to be had with Muslim community and foreign policy needs to be discussed and apologies need to be made and a promise to look at how we carry out foreign policy. Funding rebels in the Middle East and likes of Saudi needs to stop. On the flip side Muslim community needs to come out and be at the forefront of tackling terror.

But the key is the government acknowledging the hurt it has caused and the monster it has created.
 
Rado_N said:
Planned Parenthood attacks in the US are carried out by the religious right.

But they're white Christians so they're called mentally ill.
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Semantics. Acts of terror are acts of terror as you know. Unfortunately, there will always be those who use events to label certain groups in a way which fits their own perception/beliefs/prejudices.
 
RedFish said:
Semantics. Acts of terror are acts of terror as you know. Unfortunately, there will always be those who use events to label certain groups in a way which fits their own perception/beliefs/prejudices.
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Yep.
 
Wibble said:
Like is different. I doubt anyone likes it but that doesn't make you anti-abortion. Unless you have a religious based view of what constitutes life or a person then why would you be actually anti-abortion (which implies banning it).
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I would be anti abortion. But not religious

But anyway this is derailing the thread
 
zeekey said:
Still waiting to hear from my sister who was in the area this evening. I'm on all sites, twitter all sorts.
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Hope you hear from her soon. I know from family who were in town at the time that it's damn difficult finding a cab right now. And with all the searching for alternative routes, the phone battery goes in no time.
 
One problem with saying "if you x you're not part of x group" is that it passes the buck and makes it harder to address whatever issues exist. Excommunication doesn't stop priests molesting children, tackling the issue stops it. In the same way, saying someone isn't a Muslim after killing innocent people does nothing to stop future attacks.
 
Phil said:
So we're just ignoring the usual rule of leaving debate to another time and thread whilst there is an ongoing incident?
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Seems like it. dont understand why members aren't threadbanned during an event like this. I don't want to know what random Caftards think about religion, I want to know what the feck is going on.

We get better moderation in the fecking tweet thread. Pathetic.
 
Dumat12 said:
Strawman arguments. Hitler wasn't really a Christian, he praised Islam greatly. Furthemore i'm not saying that every who follows Islam or comes from Islamic background is terrorist, I'm saying there is a problem in the religion as a whole and it needs to undergo a reformation in order to fit with the modern world.

And as I said, going by your logic Muslims have oppressed Christians in their lands for centuries, and they are still oppressing them. Just look at what's happening in Egypt with the Copts. But that's not what we're talking about, are we? We're talking about Islamic terrorism.


Which had nothing to do with Christianity. You seem to be mistaking "far-right nationalism" with Christianity.


Many things are done to help them integrate - welfare, special help in all forms, etc, but when a person just doesn't want to integrate and he finds the people of he country that he migrated into as "disgusting imperialists", it just won't happen.


Why do they keep happening in almost every Muslim country then? And majority of Moslems are in Asia, so I don't get your point.


Stoning is called rajm (Arabic: رجم) in Islamic literature, and is a practice found in the United Arab Emirates, Iran, Iraq, Qatar, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, northern Nigeria, Aceh Province of Indonesia, Afghanistan, and tribal parts of Pakistan, like northwest Kurram Valley and the northwest Khwezai-Baezai region.[1][2][3] In some countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning has been declared illegal by the state, but is practiced extrajudiciall

And i'm not agenda driven at all, as I said I'm neither Christian nor Muslim or anything else. I just see the problem.
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Right that link says Iraq practices then contradicts itself then says In some countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning has been declared illegal by the state, but is practiced extra judicially. Check your sources.

Regarding the honour killing thing, you said it was a islamic problem when it's known problem in hindu and sikh communities too. This indicates its not tied to one religion and therefore more of a geographical/cultural issue.
 
Raees said:
For me that is such a simplistic way of looking at the issue.

Islam in of itself is not the issue. Islam has existed since 600ad - was there always a terrorism problem? Of course not and even a religion like Sikhism has an element of self defence and fighting for religion if it is under attack.

Root causes are British imperialism, creation of the state of Israel, gulf war, war on terror and war on Iraq/Libya.

Ask most Muslims even the very moderates about how they feel about British and American foreign policy in the Middle East and there will deep down be feelings of resentment and almost feelings of being victimised. Now magnify that across one billion people and of course you'll push unhinged idiots into wanting to exact revenge or influencing vulnerable people into carrying out acts of revenge on their behalf.

It's not about justifying acts of terrorism but if people want to talk about saying it like it is, then you have to be upfront and I am pretty confident most Muslims pre 9/11 probably were a tad miffed about Palestine but weren't that directly affected by it or cared. Post 9/11, post Iraq etc suddenly every Muslim has a negative impression of British foreign policy and that creates the breeding ground for terror.

Right so we have identified the root causes but what do we do now? Is it too late to win favour with the Muslim community and convince radicals that Britain doesn't deserve to have terror attacks carried out in its lands?

I think we are beyond that point. Therefore do muslims need to be scrutinised? Are they more likely to be terrorists? Yes and we shouldn't apologise for stating that. But can we stop the terror threat effectively without their full cooperation - no.

Therefore dialogue needs to be had with Muslim community and foreign policy needs to be discussed and apologies need to be made and a promise to look at how we carry out foreign policy. Funding rebels in the Middle East and likes of Saudi needs to stop. On the flip side Muslim community needs to come out and be at the forefront of tackling terror.

But the key is the government acknowledging the hurt it has caused and the monster it has created.
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Seriously speaking what do you guys want us to do? Tell me how I as a Muslim can help.
 
bri2013 said:
Wow. Yet another thread that is supposed to give information on an atrocity, descends into a religious debate
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The same ground axes no insight no reflection even the arbiters should doubt their judgements my dog did a shit on the carpet and now I'm questioning his views on terrorism so it goes.
 
RedSky said:
Seems like it. dont understand why members aren't threadbanned during an event like this. I don't want to know what random Caftards think about religion, I want to know what the feck is going on.

We get better moderation in the fecking tweet thread. Pathetic.
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Agree with this. I got drawn into it too and apologise, won't be posting again.
 
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