Incident on London Bridge

Jippy said:
Yeah, I read it as a standard statement. The general election thread should just be renamed the Labour thread tbh. We need TBGB back for balance.
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Or just rename the general election "Vote Labour"?
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Look man, again, I'm not voting Tory this time (frankly, I'm pretty fecking disillusioned with the options on both sides)

...but isn't the chorus of "Theresa May is vile, this is all the Tories fault, vote Corbyn" the exact kind of political point scoring we're talking about here?

I mean, fair enough if you don't like her or anything she stands for, but to make a statement this morning is pretty standard for a PM.
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It was basically a campaign speech at a time where campaigning has apparently been suspended. She's also, generally speaking, a horrible woman.
 
People complaining about 'why isn't anything being done' are really missing the mark.

Taking out a 3 unknown armed attacker's at unknown random locations within 8 minutes of the first act of violence is an amazing reaction time for the British police. This time period will get further reduced with more practice and better intelligence.

This is the 'window of opportunity' that terrorists have been reduced to. It's a quite astonishing reaction to terrorism by the British security forces.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Look man, again, I'm not voting Tory this time (frankly, I'm pretty fecking disillusioned with the options on both sides)

...but isn't the chorus of "Theresa May is vile, this is all the Tories fault, vote Corbyn" the exact kind of political point scoring we're talking about here?

I mean, fair enough if you don't like her or anything she stands for, but to make a statement this morning is pretty standard for a PM.
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No one is saying she shouldn't do a briefing, thats her job. To discuss future plans, when they're her manifesto pledged and all campaigning has stopped is a completely diffrrent matters.

Personally think that when parliament is dissolved during an election that the prime minister should recuse themselves of duties.
 
Deeply worried about the damage these terrorists can do in a smaller town or city. A matter of time before they target a lesser known area of the country which barely has any police resources.

Fear the damage could be on the scale of that in Paris last November.
 
Garethw said:
Not all Germans were Nazi's either, but this didn't stop people saying "feck all Germans" back in the day.

My point is that people aren't going to be thinking straight at the moment. People are being blown up and hacked to death on our streets and emotions are running high. Now is not the time to be condemning irrational comments imo.
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Why not? I'd say right now is exactly the time to rebutt such commentary. People need to get educated on this subject fast.
 
DenisIrwin said:
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Certainly true about the 'extra' officers.

Police numbers have dwindled due to the cuts and in response to major incidents officers have their days off cancelled and working hours increased to a minimum of 12-14 hours.

It's simply not sustainable.
 
Fergies Gum said:
Deeply worried about the damage these terrorists can do in a smaller town or city. A matter of time before they target a lesser known area of the country which barely has any police resources.

Fear the damage could be on the scale of that in Paris last November.
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I was thinking this as someone who lives in a highly populated town rather than a major city.
 
sammsky1 said:
People complaining about 'why isn't anything being done' are really missing the mark.

Taking out a 3 unknown armed attacker's at unknown random locations within 8 minutes of the first act of violence is an amazing reaction time for the British police. This time period will get further reduced with more practice and better intelligence.

This is the 'window of opportunity' that terrorists have been reduced to. It's a quite astonishing reaction to terrorism by the British security forces.
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I agree, the worry if this kind of outrage happened in a suburb or even further out as opposed to central London. What would the response times be? Half an hour, maybe longer. It really is a real worry.
 
Smores said:
No one is saying she shouldn't do a briefing, thats her job. To discuss future plans, when they're her manifesto pledged and all campaigning has stopped is a completely diffrrent matters.

Personally think that when parliament is dissolved during an election that the prime minister should recuse themselves of duties.
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Rado_N said:
It was basically a campaign speech at a time where campaigning has apparently been suspended. She's also, generally speaking, a horrible woman.
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In fairness to you both, I've only heard the parts of the briefing where she recalled the generic executive response to these kinds of events: 'We've got to stamp this out, this isn't true Islam, etc' - nothing really unreasonable. Did she specifically invoke parts of the Tory manifesto?

If she did, that would be pretty low.

EDIT: I just saw the threadmark. I hope this post is taken in the spirit in which it was intended: discussing the official response to events which in turn is part of the incident.
 
Fergies Gum said:
Deeply worried about the damage these terrorists can do in a smaller town or city. A matter of time before they target a lesser known area of the country which barely has any police resources.

Fear the damage could be on the scale of that in Paris last November.
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This is what scares me.
 
How come people get arrested so quickly after an attack? Did law enforcement already know who's connected with whom?
 
VorZakone said:
How come people get arrested so quickly after an attack? Did law enforcement already know who's connected with whom?
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They will likely be family members of the attackers. The places raided will be the attackers homes and the homes of their siblings and cousins. After that the net will be widened.
 
Cheesy said:
Cheers, interesting. Out of interest, what's your general opinion on the whole issue of integration as a whole? Critics of British Muslims tend to often argue that they're overly conservative, and out of touch with our values in regards to women, homosexuality etc, and that many are unwilling to integrate with wider society. But on certain issues like homosexuality there's also a fair argument that many of the same problems probably exist within British Christianity; it's just that we're more used to that. Additionally, another criticism has often been regarding freedom of speech and Islam holding a negative view towards it, but again, for all our parading of freedom of speech there are plenty of Westerners on all sides of the political spectrum who will be hostile to views that differ from their own.

Additionally, do you notice a major differentiation between your own generation and ones that have come before you? The issue of homegrown terrorism is an interesting one in certain respects because we're sometimes seeing people who have been born/lived in Britain being radicalised all the same. But my general view is that people who are born in Britain/get the same opportunities growing up here will probably become more liberal than previous generations (if previous generations have been particularly conservative) but again I'm not sure how true that is.

I ask because my own experience with Islam has been close to non-existent - I'm in an area of Scotland where immigration is incredibly low and where we barely had immigrants at all in our schools, and where I've tended to meet more when advancing to uni etc. But even then, Glasgow - while being more multicultural than towns surrounding it - still tends to be fairly low on immigration and ethnic minorities compared to other UK cities. So it's always something wherein a lot of my views have been informed more on the opinions/stats of others.
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It's hard to say really - it varies on individual and the communities they arrive in as well as the circumstances they arrived from. My ethnic background is Pakistani, the majority of Muslims in Britain are Pakistani/Indian or Bangladeshi. Our communities arrived over the 60's, 70's. They were mostly working class people, farming folk (though a lot of the Indian Muslims who arrived from East Africa were business people). Most of the people of my dads generation integrated to the extent they needed to to get along, they never initially thought about settling, the move was purely to earn money and send it back home - hopefully then going back. Unfortunately "back home" has remained a turd, so going back never happened, so eventually this generation started settling here. They didn't really integrate too much further though because they were simple people, with limited educations, often from small villages, the greater impact of their arrival and the next generation etc never crossed their minds. They had to contend with the National Front and those types but that was always more of a hate thing than anything else. Funnily enough wealthy immigrants have tended to integrate much better, partly because they came from cities and partly because they had better education levels so had less barriers to integration.

The next generation have integrated better, but only dependent on how much they've mixed with other people. If your life hasn't given you the chance to make friends with white people you're unlikely to understand parts of British culture. If you're Abdul in the kebab shop and you're only interaction with English people is asking if they want salad and sauces on their kebab, you're not really going to have a wider understanding of British culture, unless you go out of your way to learn it. The school system doesn't teach us any of it, and there has never been a social compulsion to learn about wider British culture, so the only people who know are those to take a self interest in finding out, or those who are thrown into the mix of the wider community and learn through experience. 21 year old me though mince pies were like english versions of samosas, i was suprised (and secretly dissapointed for everyone else) to realise it was minced fruits. i only found out because a work colleague offered me one and I turned it down saying the meat was unlikely to be halal...lol

More recently we've had Muslims from the Balkans, East Africa, the Middle east, Afghanistan all arrive as refugees or economic migrants hiding as refugees. I don't interact with these communities enough to pass judgement on how integrated they are, but i suspect if you left a warzone and ended up in England, it wasn't a planned move. Again the educational and economic status of those immigrants will probably determine how well they integrate.

Your example of homosexuality is a classic one. Islam considers homosexuality a sin, so most Muslims will consider homosexuality a sin. Of course that will vary depending on how seriously you take your religion. Tim Faron considers homsexuality a sin, he's unlikely to discriminate or cause any harm to anyone else because of his personal beliefs. I've worked with gay people before (i have no gaydar, i have to be told to actually realise) and can honestly say i've never felt different about them compared to anyone else. I work with people who drink alcohol (which is a sin), I have friends who have sexual relations outside of marriage (which is a sin), i commit sins - why treat people who carry out a particular sin any different to everyone else? Unfortunately not everyone else see's it like that and the bottom line is homophobia. Homophobia isn't grounded in religious opinions, it's based on irrational hate. Different people will have different opinions on homosexuals. Afghanistan for example is a country where certain segments of their society will have young boys as lovers but they might also have highly homophobic views. it's too complex to explain just by putting it in the integration box. I think the role integration has to play is to ensure that whatever someones opinion on homosexuality or whatever else, your views don't harm or discriminate anyone else.

So that's a lot of waffle without answering any questions - i should have been an MP.
 
I love the "not on my watch" bit, he sounds a character :lol:
 
TheReligion said:
Certainly true about the 'extra' officers.

Police numbers have dwindled due to the cuts and in response to major incidents officers have their days off cancelled and working hours increased to a minimum of 12-14 hours.

It's simply not sustainable.
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Mciahel Goodman said:
Good response.

Let em have it RS. It's better than having any of those fecks still at large.
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Better to have them captured for interrogation and a lifetime jail sentence. But given they seemed to be wearing fake bomb vests the Police probably had no choice but to shoot, which is probably why they wore them in the first place.
 
RedSky said:
Better to have them captured for interrogation and a lifetime jail sentence. But given they seemed to be wearing fake bomb vests the Police probably had no choice but to shoot, which is probably why they wore them in the first place.
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I agree, in ideal circumstances, it's better to capture and make them stand trial. But it must be impossible for police to do that with the chaos and vests as you say. Best possible outcome all things considered.
 
RedSky said:
That's what they want though, so not really.

Sad to see that one of them left behind two children according to the media. It's hard to understand the mindset of people like that.
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Damn, hope their identifies don't get uncovered. Best for them that someone with that ideology isn't in their lives anymore though.
 
Since this and Manchester, I doubt there is any other western country better equipped to respond to this type of incident. Brilliant response in both Manchester and London. Now to move from response to pre empt is the next step. Whoever our political leaders are they need to notch it up a gear.
 
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