Charlottesville

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Antifas's origins links to German Communist Party and there on to Stalinism is easily traced.
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Today, Antifa is a very loose label that unites all kinds of groups and individuals - most of them have no truck with Stalinism, although some do. It also includes democrats who think that militancy against Nazis is justified to defend democracy. On the whole, it has nothing to do with these origins anymore.

But when evoking this kind of historic perspective, one thing should be mentioned too: Communists were among the relatively few who stood up against the Nazis in Germany and many paid with their lives. That's not denying anything about what Soviet communism was (although not all Communists were Soviet-aligned), but that fight had to be fought.
 
Kostur said:
It's basically what @PedroMendez said combined with what I've responded to @Fingeredmouse. Sorry but I don't want to dive into the Islam comparison, it's for various reasons, one of them being me just not knowing much about the mutilation part apart from knowing that such thing happens.

So yeah, back to the communism though, what Pedro said basically encapsulates my problem with it, and not only mine as I see thankfully. Communism as a political system, in the European and global context always came with authoritarian regime and, for the death toll it has taken, I don't really think it should be split, and in the heads of people who actually have lived through communism in Central and Eastern Europe, it is not split. It will always come with the negative connotation, that's why you hear about 'socialist' model more often than the communist one. You can make claim that there is a country with a model that bases on nationalism and socialism, two concepts that separately bear no negative connotation most of the time, but if you mix them together you receive nazism, and without authoritarian part of it you can also pretend that 'there's nothing wrong with nazism'. Nobody sane will say that because there's an instant connotation to it, and righfully so, for some reason the same connotation didn't stick to communism, or actually it didn't outside of Eastern and Central Europe.

It will probably sound ignorant on my part but I think that people from countries who haven't suffered from communism won't fully understand this sort of logic. As I've said in my response to @Fingeredmouse, once they've brought communist symbols to the anti-nazist/anti-white-supremacist/anti whatever the feck it was there rally, it's a symbol in a certain context and it's a symbol of mass murder on the scale that was as big (even if we take just USSR into consideration) as what the nazis did.
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Clearly the USSR was a mass murdering and loathsome state with many similarities with the Nazis.

I cannot claim to have lived under either regime.

If the appearance of Soviet flags in Anti Nazi demos is enough to undermine the anti Nazi movement in the US then we are all screwed. If this a genuine battle between US based revolutionary old school communists and 1930s style Nazis then I stand corrected.

I really hope that the ant nazi protesters who are not whatever Antifa are, carry on, even if morons turn up waving flags in their midst, because decent people need to stand up against Nazis (as well as Soviet apologists).
 
Nogbadthebad said:
The very thing their own grandparents fought against. Treating it as a joke, and outlier and a flash in the pan harmless nonsense, or worse, something that others could control is exactly how the national socialists gained power..
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Kentonio said:
I bet their grandfathers would beat the shit out of the little pricks if they saw this.
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Let's be honest, their grandfathers were probably every bit as racist and horrible as the 1920s most anti-semitic Germans. America's treatment of blacks wasn't better than Germany's treatment of the Jews. They did and still do kil, hang up and string up innocent black men. And if blacks had power and America was being invaded we can only imagine the dire consequences.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Clearly the USSR was a mass murdering and loathsome state with many similarities with the Nazis.

I cannot claim to have lived under either regime.

If the appearance of Soviet flags in Anti Nazi demos is enough to undermine the anti Nazi movement in the US then we are all screwed. If this a genuine battle between US based revolutionary old school communists and 1930s style Nazis then I stand corrected.

I really hope that the ant nazi protesters who are not whatever Antifa are, carry on, even if morons turn up waving flags in their midst, because decent people need to stand up against Nazis (as well as Soviet apologists).
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Absolutely, there just has to be this awareness who those people who bring this shit to marches really are, as they are different from those, who merely (and rightfully) protest against this neonazi scum.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Antifas's origins links to German Communist Party and there on to Stalinism is easily traced.
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And history aside there is still a pretty clear ideological link. Their understanding of facism goes beyond the common definition. Historically the kpd thought that facism is rooted in capitalism. So their definition of who is a fascist went far beyond "Nazis". This believe, while evolved, is still key to their ideology. Anti-capitalism and anti-fascism are not equal but inherently intertwined. First of all it's just nonsense, but it is dangerous nonsense, because it has been frequently used to justify violence.
We already see that people here justify violence against Nazis. Now you just need to have someone who literarily thinks that most people are fascist and you end up with violent lunatics.
 
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Kostur said:
Absolutely, there just has to be this awareness who those people who bring this shit to marches really are, as they are different from those, who merely (and rightfully) protest against this neonazi scum.
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Agreed. I was also pointing out that I struggle to believe that any Soviet style movement in the US is large, well organised, well funded or even coherent. Unlike the Nazi side which is all of those things. Hence my claims of lack of equivalence which appear to have driven @PedroMendez to have put me on ignore (I assume).

In short, if anti Nazi demos in the US become Trotskyites vs. Nazis, even if just in the public's heads, the Nazis win.
 
PedroMendez said:
And history aside there is still a pretty clear ideological link. Their understanding of facism goes beyond the common definition. Historically the kpd thought that facism is rooted in capitalism. So their definition of who a fascist went far beyond "Nazis". This believe, while evolved, is still key to their ideology. Anti-capitalism and anti-fascism are not equal but inherently intertwined. First of all it's just nonsense, but it is dangerous nonsense, because it has been frequently used to justify violence.
We already see that people here justify violence against Nazis. Now you just need to have someone who literarily thinks that most people are fascist and you end up with violent lunatics.
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Not that you can see this, but are we suggesting that there is an active Soviet style revolutionary political movement with links to pre Cold War era political movements active in the US now? May be true, but seems very improbable. Charlottesville is not Moscow.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Agreed. I was also pointing out that I struggle to believe that any Soviet style movement in the US is large, well organised, well funded or even coherent. Unlike the Nazi side which is all of those things. Hence my claims of lack of equivalence which appear to have driven @PedroMendez to have put me on ignore (I assume).

In short, if anti Nazi demos in the US become Trotskyites vs. Nazis, even if just in the public's heads, the Nazis win.
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This is something I'd be cautious with too, without hopping into some tinfoil shit, KGB had their ways of doing mass manipulation, I believe they still do, even if you think about the possible Russian influence on the US elections recently. What Pedro said in the post you've quoted above, there's much truth to it, add somebody bringing in some symbols (like the communist ones) that will be associated with anti-nazis, et voila, we have a new hero, new symbol to follow, and you're fecked. Indoctrination, subconscious one, is a real thing.
 
Kostur said:
This is something I'd be cautious with too, without hopping into some tinfoil shit, KGB had their ways of doing mass manipulation, I believe they still do, even if you think about the possible Russian influence on the US elections recently. What Pedro said in the post you've quoted above, there's much truth to it, add somebody bringing in some symbols (like the communist ones) that will be associated with anti-nazis, et voila, we have a new hero, new symbol to follow, and you're fecked. Indoctrination, subconscious one, is a real thing.
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Communist symbols being displayed by those fighting Nazis pre-dates Putin, Trump (within the US) and it pre-dates the KGB itself (within Germany).
 
PedroMendez said:
And there are those by Anti-fa, who are not just anti fascists, but almost always supporters of terrible ideologies. Once they are starting to carry UdSSR flags, masks, weapons or other symbols associated with authoritarian/totalitarian states/ideologies, I most definitely consider them lunatics, that have to be isolated as well.
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By that logic, Christianity can also be described as violent and genocidal ideology. After all, it shares similar universalist, emancipatory and egalitarian ideas with communism. Historically, both Christian apocalyptic eschatology and communist utopianism have been used by primitive lunatics, leading to atrocities. All big ideas are potentially dangerous, but can also be (and were) liberating.

Speaking of that, I don't really see rabid hordes of violent leftists today. It's pretty much all about universal healthcare, changing the economic system and fighting against nationalism/fascism/racism - whatever you want to call it. Surely, there are some misguided and problematic ideas (like identitarian politics and extreme political correctness; and I have some doubts about direct democracy on a larger scale), but nothing genuinely evil or dangerous, that could lead to new stalinist purges and gulags.

In fact, to use that parallel with Christianity again, I'd argue that there are more dangerous and violent Christian fundamentalists than supposed violent leftists out there today. But that doesn't mean Christianity equals fundamentalist violence or Inquisition.

On the other hand, fascism, nazism, ethnonationalism, racism... are completely and absolutely vile, toxic and regressive. Then, now and always.
 
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Kostur said:
This is something I'd be cautious with too, without hopping into some tinfoil shit, KGB had their ways of doing mass manipulation, I believe they still do, even if you think about the possible Russian influence on the US elections recently. What Pedro said in the post you've quoted above, there's much truth to it, add somebody bringing in some symbols (like the communist ones) that will be associated with anti-nazis, et voila, we have a new hero, new symbol to follow, and you're fecked. Indoctrination, subconscious one, is a real thing.
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Of course. Again, no dis-agreement. Stalin and Hitler were very similar and the allure of fundamentalist nationalist or ideological propaganda is insidious.

Also, if I wanted to manipulate the masses, especially in the US, into believing Anti Nazis were dangerous communists, I'd stick a few USSR flags into the crowd. Not saying it happened, but there's documented history of similar stuff happening in the UK.
 
Stocar said:
...nationalism/fascism/racism - whatever you want to call it...

On the other hand, fascism, nazism, ethnonationalism, racism... are completely and absolutely vile, toxic and regressive.
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Just interested to understand why you lump 'nationalism' or 'ethnonationalism' in with fascism and racism?
 
2cents said:
Just interested to understand why you lump 'nationalism' or 'ethnonationalism' in with fascism and racism?
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Basically the same phenomenon in different forms, with significant overlap between them. In time of bourgeois revolutions, nationalism may have played an emancipatory role, but today it doesn't do any good.
 
Stocar said:
Basically the same phenomenon in different forms, with significant overlap between them. In time of bourgeois revolutions, nationalism may have played an emancipatory role, but today it doesn't do any good.
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I'm not a fan of nationalism. Or perhaps it's better to say that I recognize the bad places nationalism can led people to. But I believe it's possible to be a nationalist, even an ethno-nationalist, and still reject the racial and authoritarian logic of fascism.
 
2cents said:
I'm not a fan of nationalism. Or perhaps it's better to say that I recognize the bad places nationalism can led people to. But I believe it's possible to be a nationalist, even an ethno-nationalist, and still reject the racial and authoritarian logic of fascism.
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Recognizing and finding value in one's national or ethnic heritage is fine. Building ideology on it is inherently regressive. Unfortunately it happens too often.
 
Stocar said:
Recognizing and finding value in one's national or ethnic heritage is fine. Building ideology on it is inherently regressive. Unfortunately it happens too often.
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Should someone who believes that more ethnically homogeneous societies or political orders/nation-states tend to be more peaceful or manageable than, and by extension preferable to, their more diverse counterparts be automatically associated with racism and fascism do you think?
 
2cents said:
Should someone who believes that more ethnically homogeneous societies or political orders/nation-states tend to be more peaceful or manageable than, and by extension preferable to, their more diverse counterparts be automatically associated with racism and fascism do you think?
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I'm not sure how someone reaches that conclusion without a dash of racism in the mix.
 
Stocar said:
By that logic, Christianity can also be described as violent and genocidal ideology. After all, it shares similar universalist, emancipatory and egalitarian ideas with communism. Historically, both Christian apocalyptic eschatology and communist utopianism have been used by primitive lunatics, leading to atrocities. All big ideas are potentially dangerous, but can also be (and were) liberating.

Speaking of that, I don't really see rabid hordes of violent leftists today. It's pretty much all about universal healthcare, changing the economic system and fighting against nationalism/fascism/racism - whatever you want to call it. Surely, there are some misguided and problematic ideas (like identitarian politics and extreme political correctness; and I have some doubts about direct democracy on a larger scale), but nothing genuinely evil or dangerous, that could lead to new stalinist purges and gulags.

In fact, to use that parallel with Christianity again, I'd argue that there are more dangerous and violent Christian fundamentalists than supposed violent leftists out there today. But that doesn't mean Christianity equals fundamentalist violence or Inquisition.

On the other hand, fascism, nazism, ethnonationalism, racism... are completely and absolutely vile, toxic and regressive. Then, now and always.
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Christianity is a terribly divisive ideology and historically it inspired an incredible amount of violence and hate. It doesn't help that it's also factually wrong about everything.
Most people on the left have nothing to do with antifa or socialism/communism how it manifested after wwI. Antifa are a fringe group with misguided violence-inspiring ideology.
1) the "others" are not just wrong but evil.
2) consequently violence becomes a legitimate strategy against them.
3) anyone who isn't staunchly supporting their own ideology can be potentially labeled as enemy due to their understanding of facism.
4) add a huge amount of paranoia, conspiracy theories and the desire to play a part in something that is "bigger than yourself".
5) these believes become actionable. That's why burning cars and trashing property is okay (capitalist symbols) or why attacking the police (or other people who symbolise "the system") is okay. They are seen as facist or at least their supporters. No, it is not even okay to just "punch a Nazi". Mindboggling that this has to be discussed. I am sadly not surprised that so many people here have sympathy for violence.

The KPD and most European communist movements of the first half of the 20th century were violent authoritarian/totalitarian nutjobs. Consequently totalitarian maniacs who were willing to purge anyone who opposes them were the result. Portraying the likes of Stalin & co as accidents who had nothing to do with this ideology is simply ahistorical.
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Many many people on the left really need some education about the historic meaning of many of the terms that are getting thrown around. There is a SINO - socialist in name only - trend going on. People who call themselves socialist are being run-of-the-mill social democrats/progressives (sadly they occasionally associate themselves with radicals due to misguided solidarity; that's a different problem). There is nothing socialist (or communist) about universal healthcare or a minimum wage. Bernie Sanders doesn't want to change the economic system (fortunately) and Scandinavia is a social-democracy (unambiguously capitalistic); not a socialist country. So fortunately most people on the left have nothing to do with the lunacy of antifa, communism or reactionary forms of socialism.

I don't even know how we got here, because the violence last weekend was clearly perpetrated by real Nazis and fascists and their sympathisers. Sadly these terms are getting misused so frequently nowadays that they lost most of their meaning.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
@berbatrick Did you get any hit onto that statue buddy? :wenger:
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That's like 15 minutes walk from my house :D
I had no idea anything was happening today, a protest yesterday was publicised.

Durham is a majority black city too, so I'm surprised the statue stayed without controversy for so long.
 
Neutral said:
You know these nazis are gonna attack a MLK statue sometime soon.
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Wouldn't surprise me after they see all the "anti-hate" crusaders take down confederate statues, Saddam style. Both sides need to seriously take a chill pill.
 
I was reading a bit more about the Durham statue an its removal...
In 2015, the (GOP) Assembly passed a law that says:
An object of remembrance that is permanently relocated shall be relocated to a site of similar prominence, honor, visibility, availability, and access that are within the boundaries of the jurisdiction from which it was relocated. An object of remembrance may not be relocated to a museum, cemetery, or mausoleum unless it was originally placed at such a location.
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So literally the only way to remove a stature commemorating a state formed to defend slavery, is to destroy it, which is a crime, since planned shifting is also a crime.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article27976693.html
 
PedroMendez said:
Christianity is a terribly divisive ideology and historically it inspired an incredible amount of violence and hate. It doesn't help that it's also factually wrong about everything.
Most people on the left have nothing to do with antifa or socialism/communism how it manifested after wwI. Antifa are a fringe group with misguided violence-inspiring ideology.
1) the "others" are not just wrong but evil.
2) consequently violence becomes a legitimate strategy against them.
3) anyone who isn't staunchly supporting their own ideology can be potentially labeled as enemy due to their understanding of facism.
4) add a huge amount of paranoia, conspiracy theories and the desire to play a part in something that is "bigger than yourself".
5) these believes become actionable. That's why burning cars and trashing property is okay (capitalist symbols) or why attacking the police (or other people who symbolise "the system") is okay. They are seen as facist or at least their supporters. No, it is not even okay to just "punch a Nazi". Mindboggling that this has to be discussed. I am sadly not surprised that so many people here have sympathy for violence.

The KPD and most European communist movements of the first half of the 20th century were violent authoritarian/totalitarian nutjobs. Consequently totalitarian maniacs who were willing to purge anyone who opposes them were the result. Portraying the likes of Stalin & co as accidents who had nothing to do with this ideology is simply ahistorical.
_______________

Many many people on the left really need some education about the historic meaning of many of the terms that are getting thrown around. There is a SINO - socialist in name only - trend going on. People who call themselves socialist are being run-of-the-mill social democrats/progressives (sadly they occasionally associate themselves with radicals due to misguided solidarity; that's a different problem). There is nothing socialist (or communist) about universal healthcare or a minimum wage. Bernie Sanders doesn't want to change the economic system (fortunately) and Scandinavia is a social-democracy (unambiguously capitalistic); not a socialist country. So fortunately most people on the left have nothing to do with the lunacy of antifa, communism or reactionary forms of socialism.

I don't even know how we got here, because the violence last weekend was clearly perpetrated by real Nazis and fascists and their sympathisers. Sadly these terms are getting misused so frequently nowadays that they lost most of their meaning.
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Good post. I think people in general need more education in terms of terminology, not just the left. Though the meaning of words doesn't have to be a fixed thing, losing nuance and shades of meaning arguably doesn't help critical thinking. The lack of nuance in America's case is daft and is a direct result of their education system, including colleges. The way history in particular is taught there is dreadful (not that my own was much better, being basically a 101 in globalisation being the world's saviour).

There is something absolutely socialist about universal healthcare or a minimum wage though, while not full-blown democratic socialism it's a step towards it - if you accept the definition that 'democratic socialism is a political ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, often with an emphasis on democratic management of enterprises within a socialist economic system'. From google but neat enough a definition.

America's 'default' position is obviously definitely further to the right than much of western Europe. The lack of rights workers enjoy (does vary state by state tbf) in terms of holiday and break times always surprises me for one. Then they've never had a consolidated central government totally overseeing 'socialised' healthcare, transport, industry etc - there are elements of that but most are outsourced to contractors etc - in the same way we're seeing increased privatisation in the UK. The Democrats would be seen as a direct analogue to the Conservatives here, the costs of college being prohibitive etc

Not saying wanting any of that any of that makes you seem as a rabid antifa stereotype but what I'm getting at is to the average , potentially alienated reddit right winger (who's probably reasonably smart but perhaps hasn't had the sort of critical education that gives a filter) a push towards any of those things is a change to the status-quo. The tendency would be to lash out at the people they see as taking what is theirs, but being from the right they not going to be having a go at the government/market. Then there are the tensions within the country on economic, geographical, racial, urban/rural terms, the state of policing and how much of the nation see them/they see themselves; some big fault lines that have been bubbling for years. It looks a real shitshow, complete with stupid looking improvised armour and terrible accents.

In certain contexts it's pretty hard to argue about punching a nazi though.
 
So my workmate is a sympathizer. She voted for Trump. She is justifying Charlottesville by saying that Robert E Lee statue is part of our history and they have a right too defend it. She's also saying that the Democrats paid these Nazi assholes to do what their doing and cause trouble to make the Republicans look bad. I don't know if I should laugh in her face or just knock her out.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
So my workmate is a sympathizer. She voted for Trump. She is justifying Charlottesville by saying that Robert E Lee statue is part of our history and they have a right too defend it. She's also saying that the Democrats paid these Nazi assholes to do what their doing and cause trouble to make the Republicans look bad. I don't know if I should laugh in her face or just knock her out.
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Be like I agree with you. So, why isn't Birther, 3 million illegals voted in the Presidential election, fake news, conspiracy loving Trump mentioning this? :rolleyes:
 
entropy said:
Half of those assholes just play it up for the camera. They love the attention and ramp up the acting.
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I don't find that a reassuring thought at all.
 
Silva said:
I'm not sure how someone reaches that conclusion without a dash of racism in the mix.
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I can totally understand citizens of places like Estonia, or Japan, looking at the tensions rising in multicultural countries and deciding they prefer things as they are. Doesn't have to mean it's because they're _____-supremacists.
 
I watched that full Lewisham video that someone posted, a lot of parallels to that Vice one, although the Vice one also had interviews with full-on violent Nazis.

Edit: oh yeah, and with people calling the police threatening them with using their militia. Feckin hell, America.
 
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