Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

What's your take on Guardiola?


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Also worth mentioning that I can't think of many times that Jose has spent a fortune on a player and then just fecked him off for a replacement expensive player a year later.

In general I think Mourinho may spend a lot of money, but it's usually on players that deliver over multiple seasons for the club.

Of the transfers he's brought in at United only Matic adn arguably Mkhi were money spent on players whose primary value will be in their immediate prouction over the next couple of years. Zlatan was on a free and brought in to hold the fort for a year as a placeholder until a suitable long term replacement could be identified. Jose has spent plenty of money at United, but I think the focus on 3-4 quality additions in key areas is a better way of slowly overhauling and rebuilding the squad than Pep's more active and slightly scattergun approach.

We still have holes to fill, but I like the more methodical approach under him than the drastic turnover and shuffling we saw under LVG. I believe that if Jose were to leave tomorrow the squad would be in significantly better shape in the short and long term than what he inherited. I believe that to be the case at every club he's been at bar Inter.
 
Just one question? I roughly calculated the expenditure during these last two seasons at City and United under Mourinho and Guardiola, and it turns out that Mourinho spent around 300M pounds to Guardiola's 370M. I'm wondering, if United wins the title this season, does the same logic of buying success apply to him, and if not, why not?

Ignoring what happens next in this transfer window, according to the below, Mourinho spent 350m Euro to bring in 6 first team players.

Pep spent around 430ish (too lazy to work out exact amount and remove the reserve players) on 11 first team players. That's almost double the number of players in the same time frame.

Jose identifies what are the gaps and spend big to fill those gaps. Pep just buy in quantity and hope some work.

In some cases, Pep gamble dont work. He already sold Nolito (which he bought last year), Bravo's been benched, Stone also looking likely to become an expensive bench warmer (especially if they spend big on Evans).

It's hard to argue against Jose's buys. Given time, they come good. He knows what he's doing. Pep is much more hit and miss and in my opinion if he is successful, it's because he had enough oil money to chuck around and got lucky to buy enough quality to form a successful team. His ability to actually spot players that will work isn't great.

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Also worth mentioning that I can't think of many times that Jose has spent a fortune on a player and then just fecked him off for a replacement expensive player a year later.

Precisely. It's not trial and error for Jose and we get good players because Jose identified them and knew they'll fit into the team.

Where as Pep is buy 6 and hope 3 will work. Success there is thanks to City having oil money and not his ability to spot players.
 
Bayer Munich performance in Champions League since 2009/10
Also mentioned when they played Real and Barcelona, teams with similar quality

Before Guardiola:

2009/10
Final, loses to Inter 2-0

2010/11
R16, loses to Inter 3-3 on away goals (0-1 + 2-3)

2011/12
Final, loses to Chelsea on penalties
Eliminated Real Madrid on penalties

2012/13
Winner, wins final against Borussia Dortmund 2-1
Eliminated Barcelona 7-0 on aggregate (4-0 + 0-3)


With Guardiola:

2013/14
SF, loses to Real Madrid 5-0 on aggregate (0-4 + 1-0)

2014/15
SF, loses to Barcelona 5-3 on aggregate (3-0 + 3-2)

2015/16
SF, loses to Atlético 2-2 on away goals (1-0 + 2-1)


After Guardiola:

2016/17
QF, loses to Real Madrid 6-3 on aggregate after ET (1-2 + 4-2)


Guardiola's Bayern Munich was good but not impressive in Europe comparing to previous performances.
3 SF is always good work but he was convincingly eliminated when he faced similar quality teams (Real Madrid + Barcelona).
Ancelotti had only 1 year but was eliminated in QF but forced Real Madrid to penalties. It's a downgrade but begs the question what would happen if Guardiola faced Real/Barcelona before the SF.
In the 4 years before Guardiola Bayern reached 3 finals, eliminating Real and Barcelona in 2 of those years.
 
And won comfortable as they have done in the opening 3 games whilst the messiah and his squad of mercenaries have looked less than convincing despite many in the media claiming they'd walk the league, just like they did last season.. oh wait.

And yes, I'm being slightly over the top with that but I find it somewhat funny when a City fan who lets remember, would have been playing away at Rochdale this weekend if it weren't for the billions their sugar daddy pumped in to the club comes on to a Man Utd fans forum just to make a point about how much our starting lineup cost.

You can tell you have a lack of irony receptors in your body.

throwing out 'mercenaries'... ahem...falcao, RVP, di Maria, ibhra, Lukaku...list goes on.

and 'messiah'....ya know I think I read a few things on this here Caf 3 years ago about Pep...being the dogz b's...and then he joined city...and lo' did Mourinho arrive at United and the caf also forgot what theyd previously typed about him.

And the 'billions'.... read the published accounts, and drop the 's'. But yes, it's about 900m, but it's been static for past couple of years.

And the 'sugar daddy'... read your own history...different times maybe, but football income inflation isn't a gentle slope.

What next , 'plastic fans'... do me a favour, I've seen more red shirts out and about this week than I've seen in the last 3 years combined.
 
You can tell you have a lack of irony receptors in your body.

throwing out 'mercenaries'... ahem...falcao, RVP, di Maria, ibhra, Lukaku...list goes on.

and 'messiah'....ya know I think I read a few things on this here Caf 3 years ago about Pep...being the dogz b's...and then he joined city...and lo' did Mourinho arrive at United and the caf also forgot what theyd previously typed about him.

And the 'billions'.... read the published accounts, and drop the 's'. But yes, it's about 900m, but it's been static for past couple of years.

And the 'sugar daddy'... read your own history...different times maybe, but football income inflation isn't a gentle slope.

What next , 'plastic fans'... do me a favour, I've seen more red shirts out and about this week than I've seen in the last 3 years combined.

No you haven't, don't lie.
 
His mistake was to join City. When you look at both teams in may 2016, you can see that our roster is more balanced, better suited to his style(already playing possession and doing it well), with less deadwood and with a better age. Obviously we needed to inject more talent but it was in my opinion easier to do it on our team than on City's.
 
In general I think Mourinho may spend a lot of money, but it's usually on players that deliver over multiple seasons for the club.

Of the transfers he's brought in at United only Matic adn arguably Mkhi were money spent on players whose primary value will be in their immediate prouction over the next couple of years. Zlatan was on a free and brought in to hold the fort for a year as a placeholder until a suitable long term replacement could be identified. Jose has spent plenty of money at United, but I think the focus on 3-4 quality additions in key areas is a better way of slowly overhauling and rebuilding the squad than Pep's more active and slightly scattergun approach.

We still have holes to fill, but I like the more methodical approach under him than the drastic turnover and shuffling we saw under LVG. I believe that if Jose were to leave tomorrow the squad would be in significantly better shape in the short and long term than what he inherited. I believe that to be the case at every club he's been at bar Inter.

I agree, seems Jose is doing it year by year, he said we 75% of the way I believe that. He could have gone out bought another 5 players, but slowly but surely the players on board know his methods, and new ones coming in next year will also know his methods, and when the squad is at peak condition, they will all be ready. We need a RB, CB, LB, a winger and probably another attacking player, will Jose do it in one go? no, there is a saying, too many cooks spoil the broth, and Jose is almost like a fine chef, it must be carefully preserved. The problem with city? they wanted to buy buy buy in one go, not slowly take their time, but do it in one go, that is the difference united doing it bit by bit. I believe either next year or year after, Jose will have a team with every issue solved in the best possible shape
 
All to play for in my opinion.

Lots of knee jerk reactions here only a few weeks into the season. City needed major surgery, even last year and he's now had the chance to bring in his own players so should rightly be judged on how he does going forward.

No knee-jerk here - I saw what he did last season.
He had one of, if not the best squad in the league and finished well below Chelsea.
This season, again, he has the best squad in the league. The attacking players he has at his disposal is mouth-watering, yet I don't feel he is favourite to win the league.
Put simply, Pep isn't as good as many MCFC fans think he is. Last year proved it. Conte was clearly better (taking a team void of confidence from mid-table to the top).

Pep is the very definition of a cheque book manager. He can't get average-good players to win. He needs absolutely World class players at his disposal to win.

Pep himself stated that at any other top club, he'd have been sacked after last season.
 
In general I think Mourinho may spend a lot of money, but it's usually on players that deliver over multiple seasons for the club.

Of the transfers he's brought in at United only Matic adn arguably Mkhi were money spent on players whose primary value will be in their immediate prouction over the next couple of years. Zlatan was on a free and brought in to hold the fort for a year as a placeholder until a suitable long term replacement could be identified. Jose has spent plenty of money at United, but I think the focus on 3-4 quality additions in key areas is a better way of slowly overhauling and rebuilding the squad than Pep's more active and slightly scattergun approach.

We still have holes to fill, but I like the more methodical approach under him than the drastic turnover and shuffling we saw under LVG. I believe that if Jose were to leave tomorrow the squad would be in significantly better shape in the short and long term than what he inherited. I believe that to be the case at every club he's been at bar Inter.

We are lucky to have gotten Jose at a very peculiar stage in his career. He understands the risks of splurging and not having any results to show for it. Especially, if he really plans on staying at United for several years. He is more mature and less brash nowadays. I don't see him making silly purchases like he did with Inter or Real Madrid.
 
No knee-jerk here - I saw what he did last season.
He had one of, if not the best squad in the league and finished well below Chelsea.
This season, again, he has the best squad in the league. The attacking players he has at his disposal is mouth-watering, yet I don't feel he is favourite to win the league.
Put simply, Pep isn't as good as many MCFC fans think he is. Last year proved it. Conte was clearly better (taking a team void of confidence from mid-table to the top).

Pep is the very definition of a cheque book manager. He can't get average-good players to win. He needs absolutely World class players at his disposal to win.

Pep himself stated that at any other top club, he'd have been sacked after last season.

You talk like Chelsea were some midtable team and City certs for the league. In reality Chelsea's low finish was the anomally, if you get two titles and a 10th in 3 seasons, than the 10th is the shock. Chelsea falling apart under Jose is the reason for the 10th. Conte didn't come in an take over a weak team. He took over one of the top squads in the league (probably 2nd best to City at the time, in hindsight probably the best given Cities lack of legs.) Pep took over a team who came 3rd and 4th in that time.

Conte didn't take over a team void of confidence, he took over a team who downed tools for whatever reason under Jose. (Not saying it was Jose's fault as we don't know what happened.)
The reality is that Pep took over a squad in far worse condition than anyone thought (except @cyberman who nailed most our problems but slightly exaggerated them).

For all intents and purposes he took over the 4th best team in the league and lead them to 3rd. An improvement but not a good enough one considering the cash he spent.
Of course Conte was better, he bested two £500m squads (as did Poch).

Imho had Chelsea not had their meltdown in the Leicester season, we'd probably be calling them a 3 in a row champion.

Every manager is the definition of a cheque book manager, even Sir Alex, (despite one great youth era). Football is pretty simple behind it all, 99% of the time the best team is the team with the best players and they win.

All that said Pep like everyone else is not without flaws. Bravo was a clanger, not changing fullbacks last season was a clanger. Playing in a way that constantly exposed Stones and Otamendi was a clanger (albeit Kompany's return saw us turn into the 3rd best defensive team in the league in the 2nd half of last season).

Without a doubt though putting square pegs in round holes is a gamble he likes to take, when it comes off he looks great (2nd half v Barca last season), when it backfires he looks terrible (KDB at CF vs Barcelona, Sane at WB etc..). The issue is it missed more times that its hit last season.
 
At 1.44 on a Friday in the middle of an international break? No.
 
No knee-jerk here - I saw what he did last season.
He had one of, if not the best squad in the league and finished well below Chelsea.
This season, again, he has the best squad in the league. The attacking players he has at his disposal is mouth-watering, yet I don't feel he is favourite to win the league.
Put simply, Pep isn't as good as many MCFC fans think he is. Last year proved it. Conte was clearly better (taking a team void of confidence from mid-table to the top).

Pep is the very definition of a cheque book manager. He can't get average-good players to win. He needs absolutely World class players at his disposal to win.

Pep himself stated that at any other top club, he'd have been sacked after last season.

So would Mourinho.
 
His problem he has is that has never done anything that isn't "par for the course". He won titles in Spain with the team that were clear favourites to win said titles. He won titles in Germany with the odds on favourites. He's done the minimum or less of what people would have predicted at the start of each of his seasons.

However he's failed to win titles whilst also being favourites to win them, with Barcelona, Bayern & every trophy going under City.

I'm somewhat torn though. Being favourites for almost every competition he's ever entered is a bit of a burden as much as a blessing.

I think my biggest issue is he's never actually proven himself. The best managers generally do very well at smaller clubs and climb the ladder until they reach the top. Mourinho and Fergie being obvious examples; both achieving unprecedented things with smaller clubs before more than replicating that success with a greater budget.

I think you put Guardiola in charge of a smaller team and he would crash and burn. Does that disqualify him from being a truly great manager? In my view it Does, but I understand those who disagree (one could easily levy the same criticism at Messi for example).
 
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No knee-jerk here - I saw what he did last season.
He had one of, if not the best squad in the league and finished well below Chelsea.
This season, again, he has the best squad in the league. The attacking players he has at his disposal is mouth-watering, yet I don't feel he is favourite to win the league.
Put simply, Pep isn't as good as many MCFC fans think he is. Last year proved it. Conte was clearly better (taking a team void of confidence from mid-table to the top).

Pep is the very definition of a cheque book manager. He can't get average-good players to win. He needs absolutely World class players at his disposal to win.

Pep himself stated that at any other top club, he'd have been sacked after last season.

So what? Mourinho might well say the same thing having spent a fortune and finishing outside the top 4. And he's as big a "cheque book" manager as any other - not that I see that as a criticism since all of the top managers work that way now. Why should Guardiola be held to any higher standard and have to win the league without spending a fortune? Nobody expects that of anyone else. Is Zidane criticised for it? or Ancellotti?

It's three games into the season with a number of new players who'll take time to gel. If they don't, and if he continues to over complicate things then he may not succeed but time will tell. At that stage, and some way into this season if its still not working then criticism and questions about his suitability for the league are more than fair. As it stands, in my opinion its far too early. They've got 7 points from 9 and while they haven't looked spectacular, they're winning games and better will (at some stage) likely come. Plenty of sides have won league titles without starting the season playing champagne football.

Pep may very well be a "myth". Whether he had a great team at Barca or Bayern isn't in question and clearly that gave him an advantage but he still had to create what he did. Whether he does that again, who knows. It admittedly looks unlikely now but its a different job in a different league and the game has moved on. he may well crack the code since he is, unquestionably a good football manager.

So far it seems lots of United fans are keen to get carried away with our start and stick the knife into City. Long may this continue but its a very long season indeed and frankly, we've played very well but some of the issues from last season may still seem to be evident in part.
 
No knee-jerk here - I saw what he did last season.
He had one of, if not the best squad in the league and finished well below Chelsea.
This season, again, he has the best squad in the league. The attacking players he has at his disposal is mouth-watering, yet I don't feel he is favourite to win the league.
Put simply, Pep isn't as good as many MCFC fans think he is. Last year proved it. Conte was clearly better (taking a team void of confidence from mid-table to the top).

Pep is the very definition of a cheque book manager. He can't get average-good players to win. He needs absolutely World class players at his disposal to win.

Pep himself stated that at any other top club, he'd have been sacked after last season.

You are reading too much into that statement. It's an exaggerated self-criticism. He took over a squad that was ageing and struggled to get 66 pts the previous season. The peak of that squad was between 2012 and 2014 when they won 2 titles. Many fans and pundits were blind about the fact that it was past it and had to be seriously revamped.

In other words, many of the criticisms leveled at Pep do not take into account the context of his tenure at City. Unlike Barcelona and Bayern, City's squad was poor compared to the top teams in Europe. They started to rejuvenate the squad already before Guardiola with Stering and KDB but it was just the beginning. By the end of Pep's stint, City will have a new squad and the starting XI will barely feature any of the stars from the past.

To almost completely rebuild a squad over several transfer windows and compete at the same time for the biggest trophies is incredibly difficult. It will cost millions and there is no guarantee for success as there are other super rich clubs in England and Europe.

Jose is in a similar situation. Fortunately, our squad was younger and there was no need to radically rejuvenate it.
 
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Sanchez would have done wonders for that side. In Peps ideal side he has Jesus on his own but the lack of goalscorers around him kills that idea.
They have a lot of 5/6 goals per season players which isn't too bad but under Peps tinkering a great chance could fall to Sterling on his weak foot or Silva could find himself shooting from 25 yards. A lot of non goalscorers are finding themselves in awkward and varied scoring positions that they're just not comfortable in.
I'm shocked Pep hasn't addressed this by now. His Barca sides had a front 3 of Villa / Messi and Henry. 3 of the greatest goalscorers of all time. He knows this ffs
 
You are reading too much into that statement. It's an exaggerated self-criticism. He took over a squad that was ageing and struggled to get 66 pts the previous season. The peak of that squad was between 2012 and 2014 when they won 2 titles. Many fans and pundits were blind about the fact that it was past it and had to be seriously revamped.

In other words, many of the criticisms leveled at Pep do not take into account the context of his tenure at City. Unlike Barcelona and Bayern, City's squad was poor compared to the top teams in Europe. They started to rejuvenate the squad already before Guardiola with Stering and KDB but it was just the beginning. By the end of Pep's stint, City will have a new squad and the starting XI will barely feature any of the stars from the past.

To almost completely rebuild a squad over several transfer windows and compete at the same time for the biggest trophies is incredibly difficult. It will cost millions and there is no guarantee for success as there are other super rich clubs in England and Europe.

Jose is in a similar situation. Fortunately, our squad was younger and there was no need to radically rejuvenate it.

That squad were in the title race and were looking convincing until their capitulation after the Pep rumours began coming in. People highly underrate that squad imo. Yes, there were some ageing players, but Pellegrini wouldn't have done any worse with the money Pep has been gifted so far imo. Not saying that won't change, but he should have really done better.
 
I honesty cannot believe the amount he is splurging on players. He comes across as someone who is out of his depth and has no idea how to adapt to a given set of circumstances.

Imagine if he still fails to win the league. Maybe his fans will now say he needed Sanchez and will blame Wenger for him not winning the league. If he doesn't win the league after spending this much then surely major questions has to be asked. Especially if jose manages to go and win the league then his aura will surely take a hit.
 
That squad were in the title race and were looking convincing until their capitulation after the Pep rumours began coming in. People highly underrate that squad imo. Yes, there were some ageing players, but Pellegrini wouldn't have done any worse with the money Pep has been gifted so far imo. Not saying that won't change, but he should have really done better.

People downplay pelligrini's achievement. He was not perfect but he did win the league at his first outing. Pep could have done the same had he got right players. He was just buying,buying,buying and majority of his signings looked ordinary.
 
You talk like Chelsea were some midtable team and City certs for the league. In reality Chelsea's low finish was the anomally, if you get two titles and a 10th in 3 seasons, than the 10th is the shock. Chelsea falling apart under Jose is the reason for the 10th. Conte didn't come in an take over a weak team. He took over one of the top squads in the league (probably 2nd best to City at the time, in hindsight probably the best given Cities lack of legs.) Pep took over a team who came 3rd and 4th in that time.

Conte didn't take over a team void of confidence, he took over a team who downed tools for whatever reason under Jose. (Not saying it was Jose's fault as we don't know what happened.)
The reality is that Pep took over a squad in far worse condition than anyone thought (except @cyberman who nailed most our problems but slightly exaggerated them).

For all intents and purposes he took over the 4th best team in the league and lead them to 3rd. An improvement but not a good enough one considering the cash he spent.
Of course Conte was better, he bested two £500m squads (as did Poch).

Imho had Chelsea not had their meltdown in the Leicester season, we'd probably be calling them a 3 in a row champion.

Every manager is the definition of a cheque book manager, even Sir Alex, (despite one great youth era). Football is pretty simple behind it all, 99% of the time the best team is the team with the best players and they win.

All that said Pep like everyone else is not without flaws. Bravo was a clanger, not changing fullbacks last season was a clanger. Playing in a way that constantly exposed Stones and Otamendi was a clanger (albeit Kompany's return saw us turn into the 3rd best defensive team in the league in the 2nd half of last season).

Without a doubt though putting square pegs in round holes is a gamble he likes to take, when it comes off he looks great (2nd half v Barca last season), when it backfires he looks terrible (KDB at CF vs Barcelona, Sane at WB etc..). The issue is it missed more times that its hit last season.

Not sure why this false narrative continues to flourish concerning Chelsea under Conte. Did Chelsea have a an above average squad in 2016-2017? Was it a clear cut favorite for the title? Absolutely not. Chelsea was flailing until Conte made the change to the 3-5-2. Had Chelsea and Conte stick with the 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 Chelsea would have finished between 5-7th.

It would be nice if the false narrative about downed tools re 2015-2016 re Hazard cease as well. He had an ongoing hip injury for most of the year. For a player who relies on burst and change of direction a hip injury is a killer. Now to be fair he also had an off year but one off year in 7 is hardly something to scream bloody murder about.

When has Guardiola shown the same adaptability as Conte using a team that isn't comprised of world class players.
 
That squad were in the title race and were looking convincing until their capitulation after the Pep rumours began coming in. People highly underrate that squad imo. Yes, there were some ageing players, but Pellegrini wouldn't have done any worse with the money Pep has been gifted so far imo. Not saying that won't change, but he should have really done better.

They were on course to 72 pts after the first half of the 15/16 season. That's hardly a title winning form. Besides, they lost KDB for two months (which coincided with the news about Guardiola - February and March) and Kompany had injuries too. Hardly surprising then that they finished on 66 pts.

The squad that Guardiola inherited was well past its peak (which was 2012-2014). Let's not invent reasons to criticise him.

His big mistakes in the first season were that he did nothing to rejuvenate their defence apart from signing Stones which was a very dubious move. He signed Bravo which was a mistake and also Nolito which was another mistake as both were 30+ and past it. Then he signed Gundogan which was highly risky and did not pay off. He did well with Sane and Jesus though. Taken together they would cost about 200M in today's market and he got them for 60-70M combined. But Sane was still adapting to the PL in the first half of the season and Jesus was available only for 7-8 games. On top of that, Kompany played too little compared to the previous season. And they are a different team with him. Nevertheless they won 12 pts more than under Pell in his last season: not great but not bad either. City created more chances than any other team but their conversion rate was the worst in the top 6. All in all Guardiola did better than Jose in the league despite the fact that Jose secured better signings (Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhi, Bailly).
 
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His problem he has is that has never done anything that isn't "par for the course". He won titles in Spain with the team that were clear favourites to win said titles. He won titles in Germany with the odds on favourites. He's done the minimum or less of what people would have predicted at the start of each of his seasons.

However he's failed to win titles whilst also being favourites to win them, with Barcelona, Bayern & every trophy going under City.

I'm somewhat torn though. Being favourites for almost every competition he's ever entered is a bit of a burden as much as a blessing.

I think my biggest issue is he's never actually proven himself. The best managers generally do very well at smaller clubs and climb the ladder until they reach the top. Mourinho and Fergie being obvious examples; both achieving unprecedented things with smaller clubs before more than replicating that success with a greater budget.

I think you put Guardiola in charge of a smaller team and he would crash and burn. Does that disqualify him from being a truly great manager? In my view it Does, but I understand those who disagree (one could easily levy the same criticism at Messi for example).

The irony of what you are saying is, if he wins the league this year then it wont be him challenging himself because he has the strongest attacking team
 
The irony of what you are saying is, if he wins the league this year then it wont be him challenging himself because he has the strongest attacking team

That's exactly my point. He'd have to win the CL this year for it to be anything more than a par for thr course achievement, considering he's bought an entirely new team in 12 months.
 
That's exactly my point. He'd have to win the CL this year for it to be anything more than a par for thr course achievement, considering he's bought an entirely new team in 12 months.

I don't get that at all.

Jose has spent nearly as much. I assume a league title would be a failure for him too?

Total blindness by some in here seemingly because he's managing City.
 
I don't get that at all.

Jose has spent nearly as much. I assume a league title would be a failure for him too?

Total blindness by some in here seemingly because he's managing City.

Look at the City team Pep took over and the position they were in vs the United team José took over and see how much each team has progressed since.

José was handed over a trainwreck United club and completely revived it; there's actual structure you can see in the lineup/core after those years of complete disarray following SAFs departure. Pep on the other hand? More or less the same. He had a legitimate league winning side and hasn't done a whole lot to take them to the next level other than splashing loads of money and still not being able to fix such glaring weaknesses. Mourinho took a decaying/rebuilding side and has already transitioned them into a better position today than City, considering where they both were to begin with...it's not even up for debate lol.

Pep is a spoiled little brat who just splashes money around, wants things done his way, and takes the easy route out. José is a builder, does things the right way, and isn't afraid to go through a bit of struggle to achieve. Don't believe me? Just look and compare what both have done in the EPL since Pep's arrival.
 
There is absolutely no doubt that Jose had the bigger rebuild compared to Pep.
 
We are lucky to have gotten Jose at a very peculiar stage in his career. He understands the risks of splurging and not having any results to show for it. Especially, if he really plans on staying at United for several years. He is more mature and less brash nowadays. I don't see him making silly purchases like he did with Inter or Real Madrid.

What silly purchases he made at Inter/Real?

The Inter myth is mind boggling. He bought those players at the expressed desire of Moratti to win the CL. The next year they finished 2nd in Serie A and made the CL quarter, disappointing but hardly a Moyish implosion. Not unreasonable to suggest that had he stayed he'd have better managed that squad, shift out the older players like Maicon and Lucio when their price was sky high and rebuild adequately.
 
There is absolutely no doubt that Jose had the bigger rebuild compared to Pep.

This claim is not only debatable but most probably false.

City had to replace in the first XI: the keeper, the fullbacks, at least one CB (Kompany is too often injured), at least one CM (Toure is finished at this level and Fernandinho looks past it), to add a top forward as Aguero was injured half the time and his substitute was Bony/Iheanacho, to look for David Silva's replacement as he is approaching his final seasons at City, and to sign a top winger (Sterling is good bit nothing special and Navas was crap). And then Guardiola had to find better bench players as the available were oldish/mediocre and could not influence the game.

Jose had a similar task but at least had more quality on the bench.
 
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This claim is not only debatable but most probably false.

City had to replace in the first XI: the keeper, the fullbacks, at least one CB (Kompany is too often injured), at least one CM (Toure is finished at this level and Fernandinho looks past it), to add a top forward as Aguero was injured half the time and his substitute was Bony/Iheanacho, to look for David Silva's replacement as he is approaching his final seasons at City, and to sign a top winger (Sterling is good bit nothing special and Navas was crap). And then Guardiola had to find better bench players as the available were oldish/mediocre and could not influence the game.

Jose had a similar task but at least had more quality on the bench. He had to find several star players for CM and attack but not to revamp the whole squad.

They didn't need to replace their goalkeeper, Pep chose to given he didn't have Iniesta tekkers on the ball. We also needed to replace our fullbacks, in fact we still haven't done so as we had to address other areas of the pitch. We have a centre midfielder and an ex winger as our fullbacks. You speak about injuries but our only proper left back is the definition of injuries. Darmian is shite and is the equivalent of City using Navas as a fullback - only there for specific purposes. Our centre backs were Jones who is constantly injured, Smalling who just isn't very good and Rojo who was stinking up the place. Our defence wasn't any more impressive than City's, it only looked more secure as we'd have 90% posession and bore everyone to death. Bailly was purchased and is a mainstay in our team. We also needed at least one CM, as we were still over-using Michael Carrick, we had Schneiderlin who didn't make it here, Schweni who was way past it etc. Saying Toure and Fernandinho are past it, but ignoring we had Schweinsteiger and Carrick as two our of best midfield options is laughable. They needed a backup for Aguero, fair enough, our only striker options were Wayne Rooney, and two inexperienced kids in Rashford and Martial. We needed a striker more. We needed to look for a Michael Carrick replacement, a Wayne Rooney replacement, still a proper replacement for RVP etc. Looking for a replacement for Silva (who is still their best player imo) is bollocks. He's still doing great for them, even though they've brought in his replacements. He still looks better than them all. They needed a winger? Considering we'd have either Rashford or Martial up top, that'd leave our other wing options as Ashley Young, Mata and Lingard. Two of which aren't even natural wide players. They had Sterling, Navas etc. who are proper wide-men and good options. He needed to find bench players? Who were our bench players? Depay, Morgan, Fellaini? Hardly viable options either.

Jose has signed two Centrebacks, two midfielders, two strikers and an attacker. That's the spine of the squad. He addressed essentially every position in the team, except fullbacks (which funnily enough, is our weakest position). Our squad wasn't as strong as City's and I'd argue hasn't been for a long time. Pep was a disappointment and the only reason City bought so many players isn't because they needed to, it's because Pep is trigger happy when it comes to players not being able to follow his instructions. They didn't need to buy GBJ when they had Aguero, who has been one of the best strikers in the league for a while now. A good back-up would have sufficed. They are spoilt for choice when it comes to almost every position in their squad now.

Players like De Bruyne, Aguero etc. have not flourished under him like most thought, in fact they've struggled. Sane and Sterling started off incredibly but withered away. He spends the money he has, not because he needed to, but because he chose to. Jose made it adamant he wanted 4 signings, indicating he still sees position he needs to address in the side. We still need another attacker and two fullbacks, given our only proper and decent fullback is a 32 year old Valencia.

What do City still need? They've got some of the World's best players in every position. Would like to see him scrap everything and start fresh again next Summer should he fail.

They were on course to 72 pts after the first half of the 15/16 season. That's hardly a title winning form. Besides, they lost KDB for two months (which coincided with the news about Guardiola - February and March) and Kompany had injuries too. Hardly surprising then that they finished on 66 pts.

The squad that Guardiola inherited was well past its peak (which was 2012-2014). Let's not invent reasons to criticise him.

His big mistakes in the first season were that he did nothing to rejuvenate their defence apart from signing Stones which was a very dubious move. He signed Bravo which was a mistake and also Nolito which was another mistake as both were 30+ and past it. Then he signed Gundogan which was highly risky and did not pay off. He did well with Sane and Jesus though. Taken together they would cost about 200M in today's market and he got them for 60-70M combined. But Sane was still adapting to the PL in the first half of the season and Jesus was available only for 7-8 games. On top of that, Kompany played too little compared to the previous season. And they are a different team with him. Nevertheless they won 12 pts more than under Pell in his last season: not great but not bad either. City created more chances than any other team but their conversion rate was the worst in the top 6. All in all Guardiola did better than Jose in the league despite the fact that Jose secured better signings (Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhi, Bailly).

What the feck does on course even mean? Your prediction? Pellegrini himself acknowledged that announcing Pep was incoming helped in City's capitulation, stating he'd have not done so if he had another chance. Kompany has always had injury, didn't stop them winning the league the year before. I really don't think Sane and Jesus would have gone for 200m, regardless of the current climate of the window. Jesus played for a Brazilian team, who don't have the resources to demand money close to that amount, same with Sane. They aren't playing for Monaco's, or Madrid's, who don't need money. They won 12 points more than under Pel, who's team capitulated, after spending more money than any other team in the prem. If that isn't underwhelming, I don't know what is. As you say, we got the better players and spent less than they did in that window. They got 5 players, we got 4. So I don't see how their rebuild was so much harder than ours. It wasn't.

He's done feck all since coming to the Prem and given the fact that once again he spent more than any other team, he has absolutely no excuse this season. Anything less than a proper challenge for the CL and a Prem title will be a bad season for him. He's essentially replaced the whole team, has about 2-3 top class players in every position and now has his own players, capable of playing his magic football. He has started the season shakily, going to be interesting to see if it continues.
 
They didn't need to replace their goalkeeper, Pep chose to given he didn't have Iniesta tekkers on the ball. We also needed to replace our fullbacks, in fact we still haven't done so as we had to address other areas of the pitch. We have a centre midfielder and an ex winger as our fullbacks. You speak about injuries but our only proper left back is the definition of injuries. Darmian is shite and is the equivalent of City using Navas as a fullback - only there for specific purposes. Our centre backs were Jones who is constantly injured, Smalling who just isn't very good and Rojo who was stinking up the place. Our defence wasn't any more impressive than City's, it only looked more secure as we'd have 90% posession and bore everyone to death. Bailly was purchased and is a mainstay in our team. We also needed at least one CM, as we were still over-using Michael Carrick, we had Schneiderlin who didn't make it here, Schweni who was way past it etc. Saying Toure and Fernandinho are past it, but ignoring we had Schweinsteiger and Carrick as two our of best midfield options is laughable. They needed a backup for Aguero, fair enough, our only striker options were Wayne Rooney, and two inexperienced kids in Rashford and Martial. We needed a striker more. We needed to look for a Michael Carrick replacement, a Wayne Rooney replacement, still a proper replacement for RVP etc. Looking for a replacement for Silva (who is still their best player imo) is bollocks. He's still doing great for them, even though they've brought in his replacements. He still looks better than them all. They needed a winger? Considering we'd have either Rashford or Martial up top, that'd leave our other wing options as Ashley Young, Mata and Lingard. Two of which aren't even natural wide players. They had Sterling, Navas etc. who are proper wide-men and good options. He needed to find bench players? Who were our bench players? Depay, Morgan, Fellaini? Hardly viable options either.

Jose has signed two Centrebacks, two midfielders, two strikers and an attacker. That's the spine of the squad. He addressed essentially every position in the team, except fullbacks (which funnily enough, is our weakest position). Our squad wasn't as strong as City's and I'd argue hasn't been for a long time. Pep was a disappointment and the only reason City bought so many players isn't because they needed to, it's because Pep is trigger happy when it comes to players not being able to follow his instructions. They didn't need to buy GBJ when they had Aguero, who has been one of the best strikers in the league for a while now. A good back-up would have sufficed. They are spoilt for choice when it comes to almost every position in their squad now.

Players like De Bruyne, Aguero etc. have not flourished under him like most thought, in fact they've struggled. Sane and Sterling started off incredibly but withered away. He spends the money he has, not because he needed to, but because he had to. Jose made it adamant he wanted 4 signings, indicating he still sees position he needs to address in the side. We still need another attacker and two fullbacks, given our only proper and decent fullback is a 32 year old Valencia.

What do City still need? They've got some of the World's best players in every position. Would like to see him scrap everything and start fresh again next Summer should he fail.



What the feck does on course even mean? Your prediction? Pellegrini himself acknowledged that announcing Pep was incoming helped in City's capitulation, stating he'd have not done so if he had another chance. Kompany has always had injury, didn't stop them winning the league the year before. I really don't think Sane and Jesus would have gone for 200m, regardless of the current climate of the window. Jesus played for a Brazilian team, who don't have the resources to demand money close to that amount, same with Sane. They aren't playing for Monaco's, or Madrid's, who don't need money. They won 12 points more than under Pel, who's team capitulated, after spending more money than any other team in the prem. If that isn't underwhelming, I don't know what is. As you say, we got the better players and spent less than they did in that window. They got 5 players, we got 4. So I don't see how their rebuild was so much harder than ours. It wasn't.

He's done feck all since coming to the Prem and given the fact that once again he spent more than any other team, he has absolutely no excuse this season. Anything less than a proper challenge for the CL and a Prem title will be a bad season for him. He's essentially replaced the whole team, has about 2-3 top class players in every position and now has his own players, capable of playing his magic football. He has started the season shakily, going to be interesting to see if it continues.

There are too many statements I disagree with. E.g. they needn't replace their keeper??? Wtf? Hart is terrible. They failed with Bravo but they needed a new keeper. The same applies to many other positions. I'm done here.
 
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His mistake was to join City. When you look at both teams in may 2016, you can see that our roster is more balanced, better suited to his style(already playing possession and doing it well), with less deadwood and with a better age. Obviously we needed to inject more talent but it was in my opinion easier to do it on our team than on City's.
Agree with this. I mean, he'd have had Blind in the Busquets role. Still doesn't have anyone like that at City, which is baffling tbh.
 
I don't get that at all.

Jose has spent nearly as much. I assume a league title would be a failure for him too?

Total blindness by some in here seemingly because he's managing City.

Firstly Jose has already proven himself a great manager by winning many trophies against the odds. Naturally Porto and Inter stand out but even winning his league title in Spain against one of the greatest teams ever was winning unexpectedly.

Likewise Jose's team went into this season as third favourites behind Chelsea and the favourites City. So again if he wins the title it will be as slight underdogs (although not in the same league as his period feats).

The post however was regarding Guardiola quality as a manager and his inability to ever win from any position other than clear favourites. That is a clear irrefutable fact. Mourinho has won several times whilst being the underdog so that could never be levelled at him.

Does it matter from a managerial greatness or overall ability point of view? In my view it does. Part of what made Fergie great is what he did in Scotland and how he transformed United.
 
The post however was regarding Guardiola quality as a manager and his inability to ever win from any position other than clear favourites. That is a clear irrefutable fact. Mourinho has won several times whilst being the underdog so that could never be levelled at him.

It's not.

Barca weren't clear favourites to win either La Liga or CL in 2009.
 
Firstly Jose has already proven himself a great manager by winning many trophies against the odds. Naturally Porto and Inter stand out but even winning his league title in Spain against one of the greatest teams ever was winning unexpectedly.

Likewise Jose's team went into this season as third favourites behind Chelsea and the favourites City. So again if he wins the title it will be as slight underdogs (although not in the same league as his period feats).

The post however was regarding Guardiola quality as a manager and his inability to ever win from any position other than clear favourites. That is a clear irrefutable fact. Mourinho has won several times whilst being the underdog so that could never be levelled at him.

Does it matter from a managerial greatness or overall ability point of view? In my view it does. Part of what made Fergie great is what he did in Scotland and how he transformed United.

Barca finished 18 pts bellow Madrid when Guardiola took over, they weren't clear favourites at all.

More importantly, what makes Guardiola special isn't any particular trophy but the fact that he created arguably the best team ever. Other managers would have won the same amount of trophies with that Barca squad but with far less impressive football. It's not only about the trophies, it's more about the style.
 
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I honesty cannot believe the amount he is splurging on players. He comes across as someone who is out of his depth and has no idea how to adapt to a given set of circumstances.
You get the feeling he would have dropped a billion quid on deadline day had he been granted it. City are still short of back up false number 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11s.
 
It's not.

Barca weren't clear favourites to win either La Liga or CL in 2009.

I disagree. Naturally if you compare what he did that season with the disastrous previous season under Rikjaard then you're correct. However if you compare his achievements with what would be expected of that squad I don't think anyone could say he largely overachieved.

He inherited a squad blatantly on the cusp of greatness in my view and that's with or without hindsight. He had a front three of Henry-Eto'o-Messi, the latter of which was just hitting maturity and destined to be the greatest player ever. They had Xavi who was already one of the best midfielders in the world and Iniesta who again was destined to have a phenomenal career. A defence that included Abidal, Puyol, Alves, Marquez and regulars such as Toure, Pique and Busquets. My view is he took over a perfect storm. A team on the cusp of maturing into what would always be one of the greatest teams ever.

You could say that he made the team as great as it was and if that's your view then fair enough. However I'd disagree as the careers these players have had under several different managers show that it wasn't managerial influence as much as a phenomenal set of players. Even players that Guardiola deemed not good enough such as Toure went on to become one of the best midfielders in the world, which highlights the ridiculous talent that squad had. Likewise the players his team was built around have consistently been among the best in their positions since he left (Iniesta, Alves, Pique, Messi, Busquets).

A lot will think I'm being harsh on him, which is fair enough. We'll see in the coming years what kind of manager he is. If he wins the CL with City and outperforms what you'd expect by winning multiple PL titles over the next few years then no-one will think about the money he's spent. Likewise if he leaves City for a real challenge and does well.

However with the character I think he is I'd imagine his next job will be a team like Juventus, followed by either retirement or the Spanish national team.
 
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