Jurgen 'why should I talk about United' Klopp talking about United again.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Jurgen 'why should I talk about United' Klopp talking about United again.
First, I didn't say "playing out from the back" is bad, I said the idea that "you must always play out from the back" is bad.
I think you've answered your own question tbh. Getting it right requires the right players AND it's not a rigid adherence to an idea but rather a practical application of it. The philosophy should be driven by the players available, not simply by the philosophy itself. We've seen Rodgers and Klopp and even Guardiola sometimes stick slavishly to that tactic to the detriment of the teams. There's a balance to be struck and that's something the managers/staff need to learn and adjust to.
I agree that Jones is around Matip or Lovren's level.
Seen enough of Jones' bullshit over the years to realise he just isn't that good, despite his current run of good form. A run that still had him fall on his arse and cost us points against Stoke.
Bailly is a different story. He's far superior to anything Liverpool have.
Seen enough of Jones' bullshit over the years to realise he just isn't that good, despite his current run of good form. A run that still had him fall on his arse and cost us points against Stoke.
Bailly is a different story. He's far superior to anything Liverpool have.
Have I just witnessed Diego godin compared to lovren??
I agree. Rojo is clearly superior too.
Yes. That makes me sad.
@giorno you don't believe godin would be better for Liverpool than lovren?
You're ignoring the fact that Klopp's teams on song are devastating going forward because of the cohesiveness that comes from playing out the back. You can't hoof the ball up and then play flowing football. Hoofing the ball out may reduce the pressure on the defense, but it also blunts his attack. No manager is stupid enough to ignore an obvious improvement on one end of the pitch, when nothing will be lost on the other end. It's all about tradeoffs.
Our (United) ability to hoof the ball out is dependent on an absolute freak of nature, Fellaini, who is able to grab balls out the sky and lay it off. For most teams that use this tactic more than occasionally, they're not very good teams. The very best teams in Europe have this ability. Their dominance on the pitch is contigent on their ability to build from the back. So Klopp and Guardiola using this is not some stubborn ideal as is portrayed on here (ad nauseum), not as much as it is the way their current team setup is optimized.
Someone like Mourinho would rather remove all possibility of conceding goals. That's his vision, and I've seen him blunt his attacker's effectiveness, sometimes to the detriment of his team (Hazard vs Atletico). He is not called an idealist. He just has his style of play and he sticks to that. Same with the aforementioned 2.
That's simply not true. Lallana and Henderson often top the distance covered charts, and they add Can and Wijnaldum they usually have plenty of protection for the back four.
The back 4 being isolated is far fetched.
Here's example against City
Back in 2015:
More recent:
Klopp's formation is usually depicted as 4-3-3 but he started with 4-4-2 at Mainz and has on more than one occasion mentioned that he's not into set formations as his players move a lot through the pitch.
With Can and Henderson tho he defends a lot like in a 4-2-3-1(and his gegenpressen is also more or less 4-2-3-1) with Henderson/Can sitting in front of the defence.
Obviously different formations and tactics, but Liverpool midfielders doing Fellaini impersonation (feck all) and their defenders being vulnerable due to lack of protection IMO is not something I can agree with.
I'm starting to believe that Rodgers was a much better manager then Klopp, he seems to be running out of answers of his side and tries to deflect his own problems by talking shite about us.
Could actually see him stepping down by the end of the season
Could actually see him stepping down by the end of the season
Winaldj....who?
@giorno
Lovren isn't great on the ball either and klavan is as limited as it gets. It's madness to suggest that Godin wouldn't improve them. Even good defenders would occasionally struggle in klopps current system, but they they'd still improve them a lot. Their defenders engage frequently in slapstick-like mistakes, that is completely unrelated to tactics.
The first goal against Sevilla...it's not klopps fault that lovren struggles to hit an easy ball. These kind of mistakes happen multiple times each game.
Lovren isn't great on the ball either and klavan is as limited as it gets. It's madness to suggest that Godin wouldn't improve them. Even good defenders would occasionally struggle in klopps current system, but they they'd still improve them a lot. Their defenders engage frequently in slapstick-like mistakes, that is completely unrelated to tactics.
The first goal against Sevilla...it's not klopps fault that lovren struggles to hit an easy ball. These kind of mistakes happen multiple times each game.
I am not having Jones being inferior to Lovren over the past few seasons.
You got take the best qualities of Matip, lovren and klavan, roll them together (though admittedly matip is probably better in every department than the other two) and you'd still have less than half the defender Godin is.
It must be a wind up.
Did I just read that our CBs are no better than Lovren and Matip? 
Don't want to advocate banning but you definitely need to take some time out
Exactly.
@giorno wise up lad
Jones with all his frailities is still a better defender than Loveren. Bailly is better than Matip but Matip is good. Your glorious manager fell out with your best CB and Klavan? Jesus he makes Skrtel the turtle look like Jaap Stam.
Jones with all his frailities is still a better defender than Loveren. Bailly is better than Matip but Matip is good. Your glorious manager fell out with your best CB and Klavan? Jesus he makes Skrtel the turtle look like Jaap Stam.
As someone who watched Lovren for his entire career, he is an atrocious defender. The only time he didn't look out of place is Southampton and that's mostly because of lack of pressure and yes because they were more defensive.
However, a number of mistakes he made during his career while playing for Liverpool, Lyon and the national team who doesn't play in such a high line is an evidence he is simply not nearly good enough. There is always a mistake in him, but not just that, the problem is that those are basic and elementary kind of mistakes due to his bad positioning or lack of concentration. It doesn't help that he thinks in his head that he is second coming of Franco Baresi when he has two solid games in a row.
Yes, the high line doesn't help him, but he is beyond help without it. Simply not good enough for any club with big ambitions. All of our defenders are better, they are not world-class but they are far more reliable. And there are many defenders who would improve them instead of Lovren.
However, a number of mistakes he made during his career while playing for Liverpool, Lyon and the national team who doesn't play in such a high line is an evidence he is simply not nearly good enough. There is always a mistake in him, but not just that, the problem is that those are basic and elementary kind of mistakes due to his bad positioning or lack of concentration. It doesn't help that he thinks in his head that he is second coming of Franco Baresi when he has two solid games in a row.
Yes, the high line doesn't help him, but he is beyond help without it. Simply not good enough for any club with big ambitions. All of our defenders are better, they are not world-class but they are far more reliable. And there are many defenders who would improve them instead of Lovren.
I don't believe liverpool would be particularly better with Godin instead of Lovren, and that Godin wouldn't look like a particularly good defender on this liverpool team. Not so long as the rest of the team keeps leaving them on an island having to defend even-number or inferior-number situations in open space
Of course Godin is a better defender than Lovren. But he wouldn't solve liverpool's defensive problems at the moment because the defenders themselves are the least of it at the moment.
@Enigma_87 they run a lot, yes. Mostly forward. And of course they're not leaving the defence on its own for the full 90 minutes. But they do have a tendency to switch off in that regard, and when it happens it highlights how their defenders aren't good enough to rescue the situation on their own.
Btw, the city game from last year? That was one of their best defensive performances. City were barely able to attack. But it came at the cost of liverpool also sacrificing their own attack. Game ended 1-0, they scored immediately and spent the rest of the game breaking up city's play.
@PedroMendez Lovren is way better on the ball than Godin. More importantly, he's comfortable on the ball. Lovren might end up costing his team goals because he's too comfortable on the ball in fact. But Klopp would rather live with that risk than play with a CB who's gonna punt the ball into tier Z as soon as he's under the slightest bit of pressure, as the latter wouldn't allow him to play the football he wants to play.
And let me reiterate the point: walter samuel, in a team with a similar setup and philosophy as liverpool, looked like a clown. You really think Godin would look good on that team? He didn't even look good for Atletico when Simeone tried to switch to a more attacking, proactive approach
@Ramshock you're focusing on the detail and missing the point. I'm not debating whether Lovren is better than Jones(he isn't), or even that Lovren isn't good enough for liverpool(he clearly isn't). The point i'm making is that with the way liverpool have played so far this season, and more generally with the way they play most games, it's really hard to find a defender who is good enough to fix their defensive issues, because the issue is structural first and foremost. The best way for liverpool to improve their defence right now is to improve the midfielders, not the defenders.
Somebody suggested before liverpool should have signed Koulibaly? Napoli gave up 39 goals last season. Someone else mentioned Ramos and Varane being better than united's CBs? We conceded 72 goals last season in all competitions.
Defending is a team effort, it's not just about the defenders themselves(and in the modern game, what teams do in possession also have a huge impact on it). And liverpool's defenders wouldn't look nearly as catastrophic with better protection and help from the rest of the team, and with less mistakes while on possession
@giorno
In a nutshell.
Defending is a team effort, it's not just about the defenders themselves(and in the modern game, what teams do in possession also have a huge impact on it). And liverpool's defenders wouldn't look nearly as catastrophic with better protection and help from the rest of the team, and with less mistakes while on possession
I agree with @Wayne's World.
I think Rodgers was a better manager.
In a nutshell.
Defending is a team effort, it's not just about the defenders themselves(and in the modern game, what teams do in possession also have a huge impact on it). And liverpool's defenders wouldn't look nearly as catastrophic with better protection and help from the rest of the team, and with less mistakes while on possession
I agree with @Wayne's World.
I think Rodgers was a better manager.
Actually they both about the same level, except rodgers had better team and a rabid dog with him.
I agree with Giorno to an extent. Outside of VVD, I struggle to think of CBs whom are clearly superior to Lovren/Matip whom Liverpool could have signed.
Michael Keane was a name touted around all summer, and he's been shite at Everton. City have a long running line of CBs from who have come to play for them and struggled to outperform their predecessors.
I feel the problem lies not only with the personnel. Some additional depth would have been nice though.
Indeed. So the club realised top four was an unlikely possibility due to the position you were in and the games you had left to play.
In other, words you were too far off to justify putting your resources into your league campaign, and the Europa became the realistic option for CL football.
Basic tenet of what?
That I have no idea what you're on about. How are you comparing managing a football club to managing an office?
Michael Keane was a name touted around all summer, and he's been shite at Everton. City have a long running line of CBs from who have come to play for them and struggled to outperform their predecessors.
I feel the problem lies not only with the personnel. Some additional depth would have been nice though.
Indeed. So the club realised top four was an unlikely possibility due to the position you were in and the games you had left to play.
In other, words you were too far off to justify putting your resources into your league campaign, and the Europa became the realistic option for CL football.
Basic tenet of what?
That I have no idea what you're on about. How are you comparing managing a football club to managing an office?
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Unlikely possibility and too far off are two different things.
But the unlikely possibility was a result of being too far off.
It was unlikely but it wasn't an impossibility or anything close to it, we were controllers of our own destiny. Win all 5 games remaining and you automatically finish top 4, and there's no guarantee that Liverpool or Arsenal wouldn't slip. Winning both legs of the semifinal and the final of the Europa League were risky as hell too, but there was more glory to it and it meant skipping the last qualifying round which could be very stressful. Celta Vigo had a great record in big games and Spanish teams have been by far the most dominant league in Europe while Ajax/Lyon have the potential to cause problems, Ajax in particular were in a great patch of form IIRC under Bosz.
For whatever reason Klopp thinks what people see as the vital positions aren't all that vital. He doesn't have a striker that Guarantee's him goals while everyone else is splashing whatever cash they can find to sign one, he doesn't have defenders that can defend while the rest keep bolstering those ranks, he doesn't have a reliable blue chip goal keeper while everyone else seems to have that sorted. It's these details and his poor problem solving that'll ultimately cost him his job.
@ShadesOfTomato you have a short memory.
United decided to pursue the EL and as such rested players in the PL. If you hadn't of seen season ending injuries to Zlatan and Rojo I'm confident this decision would have been a different one or the team would have progressed well in both competitions.
Liverpool were hardly great in the new year so let's not pretend otherwise.
United decided to pursue the EL and as such rested players in the PL. If you hadn't of seen season ending injuries to Zlatan and Rojo I'm confident this decision would have been a different one or the team would have progressed well in both competitions.
Liverpool were hardly great in the new year so let's not pretend otherwise.
I agree with @giorno on one of his points.
In my opinion if current Liverpool team had rio and vidic they would also be exposed.
But agreeing with him also serves to prove Klopp is inept. His tactics are basically all out attack which in every game exposes his defenders so individual mistakes almost always get punished due to lack of any coverage.
Look at burnley goal at weekend.
Absolute pants from matip 100% but look at Can. Literally any half decent defensive mid covers the run and space behind klavan blocking that shot or at least making it difficult to get one away. He just stands by and watches
The tactics are completely devoid of any defensive duty from anyone other than the center backs but people completely blame them. Sign whoever you want this Liverpool problem is bigger than the center halves. It is down to Klopp tactics and it will not be fixed because he doesn't know how to fix it
In my opinion if current Liverpool team had rio and vidic they would also be exposed.
But agreeing with him also serves to prove Klopp is inept. His tactics are basically all out attack which in every game exposes his defenders so individual mistakes almost always get punished due to lack of any coverage.
Look at burnley goal at weekend.
Absolute pants from matip 100% but look at Can. Literally any half decent defensive mid covers the run and space behind klavan blocking that shot or at least making it difficult to get one away. He just stands by and watches
The tactics are completely devoid of any defensive duty from anyone other than the center backs but people completely blame them. Sign whoever you want this Liverpool problem is bigger than the center halves. It is down to Klopp tactics and it will not be fixed because he doesn't know how to fix it
Defensive midfielder with an instruction to stay behind the ball is their biggest gap IMO
I didn't think the idea that adjusting your system to accommodate the players you have would be that controversial but so be it. In your estimation, has Klopp optimized his system? Is he getting the most he can out of his defenders as it is? What about Pep? Was he getting the most out of his defenders last year? You make it seem like teams can only be devastating going forward and defensively sound if they have world class defenders. I don't agree with that. There's a problem with the tactics, with the rote philosophy, and it has repeatedly been exploited. I think it will continue, regardless of who gets brought in, until the approach is adapted pragmatically.
Defenders in Klopp team may be more exposed, but the better defenders still can hold their own and showed their class.
Once upon a time, Klopp had Subotic and Hummel. Despite not being the best CBs, they did quite well in Klopp system. If anything it exposed Klopp's one trick pony tactic AND his personal transfer work. Dortmund has people who work on transfer. Klopp may have a say, but Dortmund board has the final say. People keep forget that not many clubs especially outside England give head coach full say in transfer matters. Klopp was given credit for Dortmund board's work in the past. Now he's on his own and his transfer dealings don't seem to be that good when it comes to defense.
Hummels was slow paced and wasn't really excellent 1v1, Subotic was not a world beater either but complemented Hummels nicely - it was more of both compensating for each other's weaknesses. Re Defending, Liverpool are yet to hit 75% of the pressing levels of Dortmund hence the obvious difference in results in both teams. Add to that the midfield duo of Bender-Gundogan, is better than what Liverpool can boast of: Hendo-Can or Hendo-Gini. I also think the full backs he had in Dortmund were better than Pool's. What could help Liverpool now is a double 6 but hey! they don't even have an above average one at the moment.
It's very obvious why Keita and Virgil would have taken them a notch higher this term:
Mane______Firmino______Salah
___Keita_________Coutinho
________Henderson
Robertson__Matip__Virgil__Clyne
or
________Firmino
Mane____Coutinho_____Salah
___Henderson___Keita
Robertson__Matip__Virgil__Clyne
I am talking about Klopp's personal ability to recruit players. Dortmund has the system to scout and pick up those players.
It's just the hyperbole that is weird. No, not all defenders are equally exposed in an attacking system. Klavan and lovren were rubbish for other teams. That's just their level. Nothing to do with klopp.
Just to randomly name-drop: garay was for sale and Valencia got murillo. Both would have been fairly affordable upgrades. There are at least 20 other players Liverpool could have signed. I have no interest to start a detailed discussions about the pro/cons of alternatives. They exist and klopps decision to sign vvd-or-nobody was plane stupid.
Just to randomly name-drop: garay was for sale and Valencia got murillo. Both would have been fairly affordable upgrades. There are at least 20 other players Liverpool could have signed. I have no interest to start a detailed discussions about the pro/cons of alternatives. They exist and klopps decision to sign vvd-or-nobody was plane stupid.
Klopp goes into Meltdown:
TLW reporter said:
"His face all contorted" How would you tell the difference?