On the face of it that sounds a lot like the UK getting the best of both worlds with little cost for leaving. Which to my simple little mind seems extremely unlikely given that a vote for Brexit was by extension a vote to be treated relatively unfavourably by the EU.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
On the face of it that sounds a lot like the UK getting the best of both worlds with little cost for leaving. Which to my simple little mind seems extremely unlikely given that a vote for Brexit was by extension a vote to be treated relatively unfavourably by the EU.
Well it's not really a secret, it's just that from the EU standpoint it's difficult to give an accurate estimation outside of the current budget, simply because the UK is still unclear about the type of Brexit they want. Where I agree with you though, is that both sides should at the very least give the 2017-2020 budget, plus an estimation of the pensions that would appease a part of the British population even though that figure would be meaningless.
Yes, I would like those meaningless figures, simple soul that I am.
The credit rating is down again. Looking forward to the Tories telling us it's worthless after years of saying it was the ultimate test of economic stability.
I can understand that. I'm curious to see them myself.
Apologies for being a bit short but was just going go bed and rushed my response.
However, having explained the who needs who the most scenario at least a dozen times and the last time only a couple of pages back it does get frustrating.
So for the benefit of other people who may still think the same way I will explain it in the simplest possible way and hopefully will not have to repeat it again:
Yes the UK imports more from the EU more than the EU imports from the UK - there is no disagreement here.
Firstly the UK is one country the EU is 27 countries so that statistic is hardly surprising.
To the nitty gritty - the Brexiteers obsession with German car manufacturers.
Approximately 50% of British sales goes to the EU. 1.8% of German sales are cars to the UK. Even if you want to talk about all of German exports to the UK it's 7.6% of their exports. Please also keep in mind that Germany is the biggest supplier of goods to the UK from the EU countries by far so this is the worst scenario for the EU.
Now imagine the scenario where the EU and the UK have this mighty argument and they both say that all trade will stop between them.
Germany says - oh no, we've lost 7.6% of our customers - the UK say, oh no, we've lost 50% of our customers - do I still need to elaborate?
The reforms will happen, but it will take time. Nobody is saying the EU is perfect but to think that life will suddenly become so much better after leaving is fanciful to say the least. The Uk are putting their trust in the goons who have lied to them continuously and still continue to believe them. problem is even if you got rid of them , you'd get Corbyn, his performance before the referendum alone tells one a lot. I do not see where the UK is remotely more democratic than the EU if that's what you're hoping for.
As for the Hungarian issue, I had answered you , the EU court will not impose something illegal on them that they hadn't agreed to, if they did then yes there is a problem.
I can talk to you all day about trade, finance, etc because it's my field, there are people on here who are more knowledgable about immigration etc who have explained.
Brexit is a sham because Leave won but had no idea what to do after they won, if I was a Brexiter I would be thinking, we're not really going to leave are we?
For the first time ever I agreed with something Farage said yesterday," the Uk are leaving the EU but in name only" - this is worse than anything.
The pathetic speech by May yesterday which is basically saying we've still not idea how to proceed but could you give us some more time to delay the cliff edge and think of something but we will pay our dues and we will pay to belong to the single market - what's the betting in a couple of years time they'll be asking for another couple of years.
One issue that does not affect me in the slightest but interests me is the Irish border issue. I have absolutely no idea what the solution is, does anyone and if they don't , didn't someone think about this before the farce began.
The German car manufacturers point has always been utter bollocks from Brexiteers.
We're an insignificant market to them, even if it seems like they sell a lot over here (they do, but we have less cars in total so the percentage sold seems higher). They can just sell more in China and India to offset the UK impact and they won't feel a thing.
We haven't got a leg to stand on in negotiations. We're going to get shafted and May will give them all they want then try and claim we got something back because she and the rest of her bunch are wet blankets.
We're an insignificant market to them, even if it seems like they sell a lot over here (they do, but we have less cars in total so the percentage sold seems higher). They can just sell more in China and India to offset the UK impact and they won't feel a thing.
We haven't got a leg to stand on in negotiations. We're going to get shafted and May will give them all they want then try and claim we got something back because she and the rest of her bunch are wet blankets.
Not really Paul, you've convinced me that you look at things from a disjointed perspective and that only your view of the world is right, but heh that's democracy!
Yes sure Paul, nobody else could possible argue with you could they, all out of step except you, unbelievable ?
Paul this is hilarious, I bet Everton said the 4-0 defeat was a sham because we scored 3 goals in the last few minutes
as I said above, all depends on perspectiveHave a good day
Not really Paul, you've convinced me that you look at things from a disjointed perspective and that only your view of the world is right, but heh that's democracy!
Yes sure Paul, nobody else could possible argue with you could they, all out of step except you, unbelievable ?
Paul this is hilarious, I bet Everton said the 4-0 defeat was a sham because we scored 3 goals in the last few minutes
Have a good day
You mean after that very simple clear explanation that so many people other than me have also given in order that anyone with any common sense should understand - it's really not very difficult.
Now is it because Brexieteers are of low intelligence and cannot understand simple facts or is it that they just don't want to listen and refuse to listen to anything that spoils theirvision of utopia.
It's not a question of perspective, it's not a point of view, it's facts which Brexiteers are allergic to, just something called reality but facts don't come into it when one lives in cloud cuckoo land.
Have a good day and keep dreaming. It's half time so I'll go back to watching the match.
ps: well done for editing the quotes and taking everything out of context
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It seems the US plan a massive import tariff (220% ? ) on Bombardier planes, which are produced in NI. Good job we've got the special relationship.
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in all fairness the BBC reported last month that automation would probably cost scotland around 46% of jobs over the next 10 years and no one gave a shit.
Yawn
Its seems that the UK close relationship with the US has just been bombardiered. Is that the anomaly or is it an early sign of what's in store?
Mail readers are not happy.
Just saw this tagline -
"Why HAS Trump let Britain down? ALEX BRUMMER says no one could have guessed the President would turn his fire on US's closest Anglo-Saxon allies"
Eh? Was he born yesterday?!
Trump was never pro UK. He made that quite clear when he recommend that Cyprus should adopt and immediately announce even more liberal financial service policies than it already has so that it can try to take advantage of the inevitable relocations that will occur during the period of confusion caused by Brexit. He was always pro Brexit a process of self harm that will weaken both the EU and the UK. Now the UK can negotiate a trade deal not as part of a continent which is equal in economic strength as the US is but as a junior partner.
You have to be a mentalist to believe a word Trump says. The man will say anything to please a crowd. He's the ultimate salesman.
Agree completely though I suspect this is more driven by him being a Russian stooge. In anycase this is exactly what Putin and Trump wanted. Every week I seem to have a moment where I'm like, jeeze I can't believe how stupid 52% of voters are.
Reality. Even if China and US wanted to give us deals, who does Gove and Fox think would dictate terms?
Its neither in the Russian Federation nor the United States of America interest to have a 3rd/4th economic/military superpower in the world. We've seen that after the Yalta conference. Europe was broken in half and everyone took a fair share of the spoils
And this UK 'friendship' with the US is the most overrated thing recent history had ever created. If there was some real friendship and respect then why on earth the US didn't join the WW2 immediately? Why humiliate this big friend of theirs during the Suez crisis? The very reason Obama sweated so much to keep the UK inside the EU was to have a US vote (and veto) in the Union. Trump disagreed with that notion and saw it as an opportunity to weaken the EU. There's little love and friendship when national interests or business come in place. Just ask the kurds, the republic of Vietnam's citizens or Saddam what a great friend one can have in the US.
If Europe truly want to be relevant then it must work as a combined unit and become truly independent. The Napoleonic wars, the 2 WWs and countless of other wars in Europe should be enough of a lesson for each and everyone one of us to realise that we need to work together.
The UK had a choice between being a big fish in a small pond or be the small fish in the ocean. Its a shame that it chose the latter.
That's my conclusion too, and the reason that I went from being anti-EU about 10 years ago to fully supporting a much stronger union today. Globalization is accelerating at a rate far beyond what seemed possible even a short time ago, and either we adapt to the realities of the world or we end up a victim of it.
Europe will never be truly independent until the US airbases and other US military bases leave.
Why were you anti 10 years ago?
Doesn't globalization essentially mean tariff free trade on a worldwide basis?
Probably for many of the same reasons some people are today, related to the cumbersome structures, democratic accountability (and tendency to ride roughshod over national votes) and corruption (although I think they've improved significantly over the last decade).
The difference for me is that now I see the necessity of the project, and I'd far rather start with something imperfect and improve it, than reject it and face the consequences that implies. The future is powerful blocs with their own distinct goals and motives, and the choice we're faced with is either to be part of one of those blocs or to be a puppet on the sidelines. That's why the argument about us in the EU being merely a small part of something bigger (and that being a negative) is an irrelevance to my mind. That's the outcome regardless of what we choose, so we either are a part and have a say in the future, or we isolate ourselves and become a plaything of far more powerful actors.
I think we got so used to the post-WW2 order that we are struggling to recognize how quickly it's being dismantled. The world is heating up, and huge change will come regardless of whether we want it or accept it.
Well I could get some of that if all countries within a block prospered equally and paid their fair share equally but they don't. Some get wealthier, some get poorer, some have to follow the rules while some are allowed to ignore them. Tax havens exist within it while they are frowned upon outside it. Cheap labour in the eastern European countries has created a race to the bottom, create a common salary and watch those jobs come back to the west where the quality and knowledge might be of a higher level. Let Europe become a really fantastic place where everyone in every country feels better off and I may come round to your way of thinking. Until then I wont.
Our nuclear war fetishist from the election has returned to our screens.
Good points!
That's the primary reason we are leaving, there is no way the EU is going to reform itself, in the way Britain wants, the last forty years have shown us that, all the treaty's signed are sacrosanct they cannot be amended and the Treaty of Rome dictates most of what came afterwards, the ultimate Goal being the United States of Europe. In the meantime the EU 'gravy train' is so big now, with so many 'sucking it up', none of EU turkeys will be voting for Christmas, ever!
Britain will never give up the Pound Sterling hence we will therefore always be in the second division of the EU, only countries in the Euro zone will set the agenda, hence we need to leave and let Germany or maybe France, if Macron can take advantage of Mrs Merkels local difficulties with her far right, to shape the EU to suit its/their own requirements.
Since WW2 the US has used the forerunners of the EU to underpin NATO and as a secondary (after NATO) bulwark against Russia, but it no longer needs Britain to be part of the EU to assist in these matters, as far as the Americans are concerned we can now stand as an independent member of NATO, since we are one of the few NATO members actually contributing the equivalent of 2% of GDP to defence spending (well until Jeremy gets in anyway!).
'Hard' or 'Soft' Brexit in the end will not matter that much, Britain will never be a leading light in the EU and therefore needs to be out of the whole sorry mess and go its own way.
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Is Britain really poorer than before we joined? You could maybe make an argument that maybe we could have been richer without joining, but it's completely theoretical and just in terms of national GDP we're a far richer country than we were back then.
As for the bigger point about the issues with the union, that's kind of my point. I reached the point where the bigger picture mattered more than any of those deficiencies. Maybe you won't ever come to the same conclusion, but that was the main trigger for me. I think there will come a point where we're outside looking in and deeply regretting our choices.
How do you know that further integration will make all countries more equal? Its an unknown
How do you know uk will not eventually thrive outside the eu? Its an unknown
Both are a leap of faith
I'm thinking beyond economics though. Even if the countries are never equal (and I do think they're heading in that direction) I still think there are bigger issues at play soon. There will soon be 3 or 4 superpowers, and that's going to change everything, especially as we can't rely on America any more to defend our interests (not that we ever really could).
Beyond economics theres fom which i am not a fan of and theres the euro which is the worst idea ever.
What else is there?
Way to mangle your metaphors. Given that the EU have just watched the turkeys vote for Christmas and can see how well it is going they are unlikely to follow us down this idiotic path.
Our retention of sterling made bugger all difference to our voice within Europe. I'm sure the EU would have preferred us to be within the single currency to further stabilise it as the 2nd largest EU economy but the fact we weren't did not stop us having the third highest number of seats within the EU parliament or stop us setting ourselves up as the financial clearing house for the whole of the Eurozone. Swings in the €/£ exchange rate will have made minor ripples in EU/UK trade but that would largely cancel itself out over time so the only people who really suffered as a result of the UK retaining sterling were those of us who regularly travel into Europe and are therefore open to exploitation by the banks and exchanges.
You do know that all the EU countries are separate members of NATO, not part of some block deal right? Indeed some like Malta, Ireland and Cyprus are not NATO members despite being in the EU.
Britain was a leading light in Europe in terms of research and the writing of common standards for business, we could have been at a political level too but rather than electing real MEPs we invariably filled our seats with pillocks from UKIP as a joke and rather than having serious journalists from the UK reporting on the facts from Brussels and Strasbourg we sent over clowns like Boris to make up stories about bananas. I agree that hard or soft brexit are unlikely to make much difference but only because I am sure that with the bunch of clowns we have running the show, if we allow brexit to happen we will be fecked for the foreseeable future, we're heading into a sorry mess and it's worrying that people still seem to be celebrating it.
If you believe that then there was no point in Tony Blair working his socks off trying to get us into the Euro! Come on lets talk sense here, the euro zone countries within the EU will determine the future path of the EU, in particular one that allows Germany to keep its products competitive, sure some of it may assist the UK, but not at the expense of the German economy. We have lost this battle with Germany, they are now the superpower in the EU, with Macron scrabbling like mad to hold on to their coat tails, the only chance he's got is the rise of the right in Germany will become a distraction for Merkel and she may take her eye off the ball, but I wouldn't count on it!
We have a comparable voice and comparable financial contribution to the EU as Germany, we just never used our voice properly preferring to disrupt rather than contribute or lead. This paranoia that Germany are running things for their own ends is all a bit sad really, where are they doing our businesses down through their aggressive and ruthlessly efficient business practices? Our car industry, oh no we fecked that up all on our own at around the same point we joined the EU. Our hugely successful electronics market which might start well with Dyson but is quickly let down by the Amstrads and Sinclairs. The fact is that we fecked over all our own industries in the pursuit of Thatcher's white collar dream (and desire to break the unions), it allowed us to set ourselves up as the financial clearing house for the EU which boosted our GDP but led to a huge disparity in wealth between London and the rest of the UK where the death of traditional industries was never addressed.
As for Blair, whilst I celebrated his election as a possible chance for Britain to reverse the decades of damage wrought by the tories nothing the self serving, lying, conniving twat did was in Britain's interest. I'm sure Tony saw himself as president of the EU some day just as he still refuses to see himself as a war criminal.