Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

[antihenry]

That's not true with Conte though. he came to Chelsea and tried to set up differently the first few games with no success. he was extremely exposed so reverted back to his trusted 343 from his Juventus tenure. So if anything it proves Conte to be more one dimensional than Pep. Conte looked utter clueless yesterday. Peps tactics were genius. theres no way A dummy like walker and a player like Delph would have known to tuck inside to out number the midfield. And and sane and Sterling staying so high and wide it pinned back the wing backs of Chelsea. Still stand by my point, Chelsea would sack Conte Tomorrow if they could have Pep. Infact i think every club in world football bar United and Madrid would do the same.

Doesn't that prove that Conte is actually more flexible and adaptable? He tried it one way, it didn't work, so he changed things around and it worked out brilliantly for the team. Pep can only play one way and he requires a certain type of players to do so. If he doesn't have that, he's about as useful as an impotent at an orgy. I'm not knocking his reputation, he's clearly a brilliant manager with his own vision of football, but he's got a major flaw in him. By the way, that was the first time he beat Chelsea in his managerial career.

And no, Chelsea wouldn't sack Conte to get Pep. At this point Chelsea cannot afford someone like Guardiola, given his demands in the transfer market. You think Conte doesn't want to spend more and add more quality to his squad? He wanted both Walker and Danilo, for example, and couldn't land either. He didn't want to sell Matic, either, he wanted to develop Bakayoko while still having Matic alongside him. But Conte has a budget with certain limitations and he has to sell in order to buy. That's a bit different from City where you can just discard whoever you don't need and buy yourself a new squad.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Did you watch his Bayern side play in the Bundesliga very often? Probably the most dominant I've ever seen a team be in one of the major European leagues.

We also played cracking football in the CL.
It's really not worth the time and energy to argue with such baseless bait posts.

 

[Theonas]

Has Guardiola created anything particularly special outside of the Barcelona team he inherited? I certainly didn't see anything particularly special during his Bayern tenure or last season with City.

Sacchi did even less probably and nothing special outside of that phenomenal Milan side and yet his place in history is secure. The same goes for Cruyff as manager who also did even less than Pep trophies wise. On top of that, there is an argument to be had that his Bayern was truly something special in the way they performed against other European top clubs. How many times did you see a top team do to another top team like City what Bayern did to them at the Etihad with 10 men for example. Even Real Madrid never reached that level of authority over close rivals the way Barcelona and to a lesser extent Bayern. Of course the failures against Real and Atlético in those semis will remain a valid point of criticism as in three years, they really should have made one of them count. But that is why that tenure is debatable. The bottom line is if you create a team that is so good to the point that the rest of Europe are hopelessly trying to copy and emulate like Bayern and City did by hiring him and like Abramovic tried his best to, you must have done something truly special, and winning alone is not really truly special.

 

[Theonas]

We also played cracking football in the CL.
It's really not worth the time and energy to argue with such baseless bait posts.

It wasn't just cracking. It was only behind Barcelona in terms of the sheer aura and authority it exerted. Nothing says big more than when you go to another top team and everybody from fans to pundits just expect that the home team will have to sit deep and defend and hope for set pieces. We are used to that when the likes of West Brom come to Old Trafford, not when City or Juventus among others are the opponent.

 

[Stocar]

No, that is the point, actually. So far it appears that unless Guardiola has a near perfect squad filled with top quality players with certain characteristics, he's unable to execute his ideas and realize his vision on the pitch. Mourinho and Conte won the league title with this Chelsea side. Pep wouldn't have, because the current Chelsea squad is not equipped to play his style of football.

These are all assumptions based on nothing but guesswork and biased thinking. How can you be so sure?

 

[totaalvoetbal]

Sacchi did even less probably and nothing special outside of that phenomenal Milan side and yet his place in history is secure. The same goes for Cruyff as manager who also did even less than Pep trophies wise. On top of that, there is an argument to be had that his Bayern was truly something special in the way they performed against other European top clubs. How many times did you see a top team do to another top team like City what Bayern did to them at the Etihad with 10 men for example. Even Real Madrid never reached that level of authority over close rivals the way Barcelona and to a lesser extent Bayern. Of course the failures against Real and Atlético in those semis will remain a valid point of criticism as in three years, they really should have made one of them count. But that is why that tenure is debatable. The bottom line is if you create a team that is so good to the point that the rest of Europe are hopelessly trying to copy and emulate like Bayern and City did by hiring him and like Abramovic tried his best to, you must have done something truly special, and winning alone is not really truly special.

Great examples. I would add that the general Rinus Michels won only 1 European Cup and failed elsewhere because he did not have the quality to replicate his tactical instructions. Meanwhile, the manager that has won the most European cups for us goes by the name Stefan Kovacs who is almost forgotten by most Ajacied and world football.

To play this type of risky offensive football, it requires players of very specific quality that do not have to be expensive as Sarri is showing in Naples.

 

[AshRK]

It's funny how pep fanboys get sensitive the moment he is termed a chequebook manager but when it's jose they are quick to bash and taunt him for the same.

The truth is both jose and pep are of the same cloth in that regard, spend money and strengthen their respective squad ,but the irony comes when pep is treated some kind of messiah and jose is some kind of evil b*stard.

 

[totaalvoetbal]

It's funny how pep fanboys get sensitive the moment he is termed a chequebook manager but when it's jose they are quick to bash and taunt him for the same.

The truth is both jose and pep are of the same cloth in that regard, spend money and strengthen their respective squad ,but the irony comes when pep is treated some kind of messiah and jose is some kind of evil b*stard.

I do not care about how much money Jose Mourinho spends. I do not like the football he promotes. It's very simple. The premier league is anomaly in the world of football with the amount of money invested in it.

Imagine Jose Mourinho coaching Barcelona right after Rijkaard was relieved of his duties in 2008. It sends shivers down my spine.

 

[SuperiorXI]

I think similar to last season, the wheels will eventually fall off when plan A (the only plan) doesn't succeed.

 

[Sid234]

It's funny how pep fanboys get sensitive the moment he is termed a chequebook manager but when it's jose they are quick to bash and taunt him for the same.

The truth is both jose and pep are of the same cloth in that regard, spend money and strengthen their respective squad ,but the irony comes when pep is treated some kind of messiah and jose is some kind of evil b*stard.

I agree with this.. Mourinho's pragmatism is often mistaken to be a negative attitude to tactics.

At the end of the day, the main difference between the two is that Mourinho will place winning a trophy over style while Pep would rather play beautiful football but lose. Pep likes to think he is morally superior because of that.

Personally, I would take an ugly win over a beautiful defeat..

 

[antihenry]

These are all assumptions based on nothing but guesswork and biased thinking. How can you be so sure?

Everybody's biased, that's human nature. As for guesswork, I think I explained myself quite clearly, in my view, he requires a certain type of players to play football 'the right way' otherwise he struggles, as the last season showed. He was in a perfect situation at Barca and Bayern both in terms of having by far the best sides in their leagues and the profile of players he covets. At City he didn't quite have what he's used to, so now after two summers of huge spending they look like they're finally playing his style of football and at least for now look favorites for the title. Where was I wrong, exactly?

 

[AshRK]

I do not care about how much money Jose Mourinho spends. I do not like the football he promotes. It's very simple. The premier league is anomaly in the world of football with the amount of money invested in it.

Imagine Jose Mourinho coaching Barcelona right after Rijkaard was relieved of his duties in 2008. It sends shivers down my spine.

Fair enough. No one can force anyone to like any person but same way no one can spread false propaganda and over exaggerate Jose's flaws. The whole idea that jose would have made messi some kind of defensive winger (which is the thinking of jose haters) or would not have won with the barca squad is all unproven facts, considering his real.madrid side played some of the best football (which again is not talked about) shows he would have done the same with barca.

Yes his style is different from pep, pep plays more expansive football while jose is pragmatic. You talk as of jose goes on to defend each game. Considering how we have played so far this season, I have not seen anything bad he promotes. His idea is if other team played better and you are winning the game, he becomes pragmatic and choses to defend , whether that is good or bad is his choice but there is nothing vile in that. The way some (like you )make.it to be is as if jose hates scoring goals.

 

[AshRK]

I agree with this.. Mourinho's pragmatism is often mistaken to be a negative attitude to tactics.

At the end of the day, the main difference between the two is that Mourinho will place winning a trophy over style while Pep would rather play beautiful football but lose. Pep likes to think he is morally superior because of that.

Personally, I would take an ugly win over a beautiful defeat..

This. I don't know how some people take pride of losing playing beautiful football. Sorry , there is nothing beautiful in defeat. We blew up a 4-2 lead against everton 6 seasons ago which meant city won the league, there was nothing beautiful in that when sir alex should have been more pragmatic and closed down the game. I was pissed after that game. Jose critiques act aa if he defends every game, which as we are seeing is not the case.

 

[GhastlyHun]

At the end of the day, the main difference between the two is that Mourinho will place winning a trophy over style while Pep would rather play beautiful football but lose. Pep likes to think he is morally superior because of that.

That's just you projecting your perception of Pep fans onto Pep himself.

 

[Stocar]

Everybody's biased, that's human nature. As for guesswork, I think I explained myself quite clearly, in my view, he requires a certain type of players to play football 'the right way' otherwise he struggles, as the last season showed. He was in a perfect situation at Barca and Bayern both in terms of having by far the best sides in their leagues and the profile of players he covets. At City he didn't quite have what he's used to, so now after two summers of huge spending they look like they're finally playing his style of football and at least for now look favorites for the title. Where was I wrong, exactly?

There is literally no evidence that his teams ultimately fail if very specific personnel isn't in place. Third place in first season with City isn't exactly a disaster, considering that implementation of new style and squad overhaul were taking place. It's not like other top managers at elite clubs don't have problems from time to time. How can you be so sure he wouldn't be able to adapt in different situations?

 

[totaalvoetbal]

Fair enough. No one can force anyone to like any person but same way no one can spread false propaganda and over exaggerate Jose's flaws. The whole idea that jose would have made messi some kind of defensive winger (which is the thinking of jose haters) or would not have won with the barca squad is all unproven facts, considering his real.madrid side played some of the best football (which again is not talked about) shows he would have done the same with barca.

Yes his style is different from pep, pep plays more expansive football while jose is pragmatic. You talk as of jose goes on to defend each game. Considering how we have played so far this season, I have not seen anything bad he promotes. His idea is if other team played better and you are winning the game, he becomes pragmatic and choses to defend , whether that is good or bad is his choice but there is nothing vile in that. The way some (like you )make.it to be is as if jose hates scoring goals.

At Real Madrid his team was criticsed even when they won 4-0 because they depended on the counter even when he had the most expense assembled squad in history. This is the reason why he suffered in his final season there because teams just gave Madrid the ball and Jose Mourinho cannot coach positional attacks so Madrid's form declined. The players at Real Madrid even complained that all they trained was transitions for counter attacking.

My idea of a big team is one thatshould always strives to be the protagonist and dominate the ball, not give it away and wait like a smaller team for opposition mistakes. I also disliked his attitude particularly in Spain. The eye poke against Tito Vilanova was the last straw for me and he made Real Madrid the most hates team in Spain when they are usually not hated. He stained the image of Real Madrid and was constantly going on about referees.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

You sound like a child.

I'm sorry but when I see a supposed United fan whinging like a petulant toddler about our own manager - a manager who has brought us 2 proper, solid, tangible trophies during a transition season (during which it turns out his father was passing away) and a manager who currently has us playing some great football, scoring goals for fun and defending well - while at the same time bigging up the trophyless manager of Man fecking Citeh I have to call it out.

Guardiola has won feck all, challenged for feck all and every season early on City are hyped as one of the best teams in Europe...

City should win trophies with the money they've spent, but until they do - I'll take the manager who is actually bringing his supporters silverware.

That's how SAF worked, and I love it.

 

[AshRK]

At Real Madrid his team was criticsed even when they won 4-0 because they depended on the counter even when he had the most expense assembled squad in history. This is the reason why he suffered in his final season there because teams just gave Madrid the ball and Jose Mourinho cannot coach positional attacks so Madrid's form declined. The players at Real Madrid even complained that all they trained was transitions for counter attacking.

My idea of a big team is one thatshould always strives to be the protagonist and dominate the ball, not give it away and wait like a smaller team for opposition mistakes. I also disliked his attitude particularly in Spain. The eye poke against Tito Vilanova was the last straw for me and he made Real Madrid the most hates team in Spain when they are usually not hated. He stained the image of Real Madrid and was constantly going on about referees.

Criticised by who? Pep fans like you. The Tito eye poking was disgusting but jose did apologize for that, don't know why this one incident keeps on coming. I know many madrid fans who loved Jose's counter atta king football and barca fans hated him because jose assembled a side who could compete against them. Real madrid side were far from the hated side, so stop making false claims, only hated by barca and pep fans.

 

[Hugh Jass]

City were sublime yesterday.

 

[Dumbat12]

I do not care about how much money Jose Mourinho spends. I do not like the football he promotes. It's very simple. The premier league is anomaly in the world of football with the amount of money invested in it.

Imagine Jose Mourinho coaching Barcelona right after Rijkaard was relieved of his duties in 2008. It sends shivers down my spine.

The notion that Jose plays ugly football is a complete myth and an unfounded one at that. His first Chelsea side played absolutely amazing football, his Real Madrid was devastating and regularly destroyed lesser opponents all the while played absolutely beautiful attacking and counter-attacking (when needed) football. His Inter and Porto side also played decent football and went defensive only when it was required (like the big league games or CL matches). This Manchester United side is playing some of the best football we have seen since Sir Alex's days.

This notion that Mourinho plays ugly football mainly stems from the CL matches and big league games (and let's be honest, those are the most watched games. Nobody watches Manchester United vs Bournemouth if he isn't a fan of one of the two teams) where he is way more pragmatic and adjusts to his opponents. That's why he regularly plays defensive footbal in such scenarios - no point in going guns blazing like Arsene Wenger in every single match and get destroyed in the process

 

[antihenry]

There is literally no evidence that his teams ultimately fail if very specific personnel isn't in place. Third place in first season with City isn't exactly a disaster, considering that implementation of new style and squad overhaul were taking place. It's not like other top managers at elite clubs don't have problems from time to time. How can you be so sure he wouldn't be able to adapt in different situations?

He was never in a situation where he NEEDED to adapt until he came to City, so you're doing a guesswork, too. And the first time in his career he didn't have an absolutely best squad in the league at his disposal, even after spending a small fortune, he finished 3rd. That's not a disaster, but it's not a good sign, either. So he goes out and spends yet more piles of money on top of it and suddenly he's a genius again.

Guardiola is absolutely a top manager and his teams play some great football but I don't think he'd have won the CL with Porto in 2004, Liverpool in 2005, Inter in 2010, or Chelsea in 2012. He wouldn't know how.

 

[totaalvoetbal]

Criticised by who? Pep fans like you. The Tito eye poking was disgusting but jose did apologize for that, don't know why this one incident keeps on coming. I know many madrid fans who loved Jose's counter atta king football and barca fans hated him because jose assembled a side who could compete against them. Real madrid side were far from the hated side, so stop making false claims, only hated by barca and pep fans.

Yes they were around Spain and Mourinho was disliked by other managers because of his conduct. Real Madrid became hated that is true. Opposition managers and people associated with the club said this, Pepe, a Real Madrid player even came out and said this.

The players complained about Mourinho's tendancy to sit back in big games and complained Ronaldo even came out in an interview and said he did not like it but he did what the coach asked. A lot of the spanish players did notlike his approach as they were used to dominating with Spain and then they came back to the biggest club inhistory and were asked to play counter attacks. This is all public knowledge.

 

[AshRK]

Yes they were around Spain and Mourinho was disliked by other managers because of his conduct. Real Madrid became hated that is true. Opposition managers and people associated with the club said this, Pepe, a Real Madrid player even came out and said this.

The players complained about Mourinho's tendancy to sit back in big games and complained Ronaldo even came out in an interview and said he did not like it but he did what the coach asked. A lot of the spanish players did notlike his approach as they were used to dominating with Spain and then they came back to the biggest club inhistory and were asked to play counter attacks. This is all public knowledge.

I don't know why just because you are not fan of counter attacking football means everyone hates that. I know many madrid fans who loved the way madrid played. They scored record number of goals more than pep, so how can you speak on behalf of all madrid fans.

Like o said no one will force you to like jose but stop over exaggerating facts to suit your agenda.

 

[Stocar]

He was never in a situation where he NEEDED to adapt until he came to City, so you're doing a guesswork, too.

We are all doing guesswork, but some people seem to be very confident in their assumptions based on almost nothing. Besides, there actually were some major adaptations taking place in all teams he has managed. Those who actually followed and watched the teams would be aware of that.

Guardiola is absolutely a top manager and his teams play some great football but I don't think he'd have won the CL with Porto in 2004, Liverpool in 2005, Inter in 2010, or Chelsea in 2012. He wouldn't know how.

If a tactical mastermind such as you says so, it must be true.

 

[shaggy]

One of the few things I have gotten right on the caf. Excellent manager. Bought superbly as well.

 

[totaalvoetbal]

I don't know why just because you are not fan of counter attacking football means everyone hates that. I know many madrid fans who loved the way madrid played. They scored record number of goals more than pep, so how can you speak on behalf of all madrid fans.

Like o said no one will force you to like jose but stop over exaggerating facts to suit your agenda.

You misunderstand me. I do not hate counter attacking football at all. It is a great weapon to be used and is an essential part of the game. As I said, I believe big teams should want to dominate the ball. Nothing more, nothing less.There is no agenda. I did not care much for Jose before he joined Manchester United, I do not care for him now and I will not care for him when he leaves.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I do not care about how much money Jose Mourinho spends. I do not like the football he promotes. It's very simple.

What a snob @totaalvoetbal

His first Chelsea & his Real side were devastating, brilliant to watch, the pace in those sides and ability to turn attack was awe inspiring. Way more fun than pass, pass, pass, pass, pass.

United this season are a great watch.

 

[Hugh Jass]

He was never in a situation where he NEEDED to adapt until he came to City, so you're doing a guesswork, too. And the first time in his career he didn't have an absolutely best squad in the league at his disposal, even after spending a small fortune, he finished 3rd. That's not a disaster, but it's not a good sign, either. So he goes out and spends yet more piles of money on top of it and suddenly he's a genius again.

Guardiola is absolutely a top manager and his teams play some great football but I don't think he'd have won the CL with Porto in 2004, Liverpool in 2005, Inter in 2010, or Chelsea in 2012. He wouldn't know how.

This.

 

[El cangrejo]

Yeah, I'm sure something coaching genius Roberto Di Matteo managed to achieve is beyond Guardiola.

 

[adz_87]

I'm sorry but when I see a supposed United fan whinging like a petulant toddler about our own manager - a manager who has brought us 2 proper, solid, tangible trophies during a transition season (during which it turns out his father was passing away) and a manager who currently has us playing some great football, scoring goals for fun and defending well - while at the same time bigging up the trophyless manager of Man fecking Citeh I have to call it out.

Guardiola has won feck all, challenged for feck all and every season early on City are hyped as one of the best teams in Europe...

City should win trophies with the money they've spent, but until they do - I'll take the manager who is actually bringing his supporters silverware.

That's how SAF worked, and I love it.

I thought it was only city and Liverpool fans who were bitter.

I'm not sticking up for pep but he was also in a transitional period and had a pretty ageing squad last year that needed overhauling. Then you're going on about the money they've spent when we've spent similar and spend more on players wages. The moral of the story is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

[adexkola]

Yeah, I'm sure something coaching genius Roberto Di Matteo managed to achieve is beyond Guardiola.

It's such a ridiculous comment. I mean, I'm sure all Chelsea fans are eternally obliged to Di Matteo for placing a CL trophy in their cabinet, but that's not a template to go after in terms of winning CLs. Jose couldn't win a CL for Chelsea in 5 attempts with superior squads; why would he be magically able to replicate Di Matteo's hail Mary? Mind you, I'd label anyone who used this line of criticism on Jose as ridiculous too.

The conversation in England regarding Guardiola deviates so far from actual facts (as stated by historical accounts, and fans of Bayern and Barcelona) that it's impossible to tell whether it's a giant troll campaign or some aversion at the notion that some manager is determined to play the game in a way he deems fit, but is different from the regular rumble and tumble that is packaged as world class PL football.

Forget the way in which City dominated affairs at Stamford Bridge. If Mourinho took United there and grabbed a 1-0 win playing hoof-ball (a legitimate tactic), he would be hailed as a tactical genius, able to stymie the reigning champions and get a result. Shoot, any other manager would get the same praise. I don't expect United fans to be glowing in praise for a Manchester City manager, but it says something that such a comprehensive domination by the away team from defense to attack is given muted praise by some commentators and fans. This is done, ignoring all the tactical adjustments made by Guardiola to render media darlings Kante and Fabregas impotent when having the ball for more than 5 seconds, or nullifying counter attacks with great offside traps, and not biting on overlaps, leaving Hazard and Will.I.An with no other option but to pass back. To do this alone and win through a jammy goal would be given numerous plaudits if it was someone else in the dugout.

And that's ignoring the numerous times that Chelsea were sliced up in midfield and defense, even after relinquishing all initiative and going into full park the bus mode. To go to Stamford Bridge and treat Chelsea as if they were Crystal Palace. People have asked, "well what is City/Guardiola's plan B for when a team sits deep and tries to hit them on the break?" Here you go, implemented versus a team that is normally deadly on the counter. The proof of the pudding will be the Manchester derby, and in the post match interview Guardiola recognized United as a team firmly in Jose's gap, and the benchmark he has to beat. But at the moment not recognizing him as a premier tactician is burying heads in the sand.

 

[MJJ]

Absolutely. Look at Kevin De Bruyne for example. A lot of people (incl here on the Caf) thought that it is ridiculous idea KDB to play a much deeper role than his usual one as an AM, winger or even striker.. They thought he is misused by Pep and can't show his full potential. Year later he still plays deeper and is arguably the best player in the league.

The same kdb that was played in a deeper role by martinez first and after seeing him play that role to a good standard Pep played him in midfield? Yeah, that was ingenious.

 

[adexkola]

The same kdb that was played in a deeper role by martinez first and after seeing him play that role to a good standard Pep played him in midfield? Yeah, that was ingenious.

Kdb wasn't orchestrating things like this under Martinez.

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

KdB the best player in the league, now I have read everything

 

[adexkola]

KdB the best player in the league, now I have read everything

I mean, he clearly outshone Hazard, a player who many hold up to be the PL's best player (I disagree and think that De Bryune is the better of the duo, but that's beside the point). At the very least he's in the conversation.

 

[MuranoLover]

KdB the best player in the league, now I have read everything

Well who is ?

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

I mean, he clearly outshone Hazard, a player who many hold up to be the PL's best player (I disagree and think that De Bryune is the better of the duo, but that's beside the point). At the very least he's in the conversation.

It’s all a matter of opinions of course, I happen to think he isn’t even the best player at City let alone the out and out best player in the league. It also depends how you judge these sort of things, for me DDG is the best player in his position in the world.. a line I don’t think you can say about any other player in the league but being a goalkeeper he’ll get overlooked in such discussions.

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

Well who is ?

Not him. I’d even go as far as saying David Silva would be my choice between the two from City for example.

 

[finneh]

Did you watch his Bayern side play in the Bundesliga very often? Probably the most dominant I've ever seen a team be in one of the major European leagues.

A Bayern manager and team dominating the Bundesliga... Next people will tell me Rodgers' is one of the world's best managers for going unbeaten last season with Celtic with a goal difference of +81 to boot... That Rodgers.

 

[Sid234]

That's just you projecting your perception of Pep fans onto Pep himself.

Not really.. Some of his comments in the media about Mourinho have been backhanded compliments at best..