Argentina NT

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Only in your crazy world chief, did you not read this part "because there are valid causes for it but the way you do it is fecked up IMHO. It's massive collective failure in Argentina, they're all to be blamed. Messi for not playing as well as he can and his teammates for being as shit as they are." ?? How the hell is that absolving him ?
They're all at fault, there are reasons explaining why Messi is playing badly, just like there are reasons explaining why his teammates are playing badly too. How is that excusing him then ???

Either you are drunk today Koroux or there is suddenly something seriously wrong with your ability to think.

First, these quotes below are not from 'my crazy world'. They are from others and you in defence of Messi's shambolic showings in an Argie shirt compared to his true level, posted in this very thread:

"He had five assists last night, 5!! he´s surrounded by monkeys......

".....
Exactly. Messi is a WC player, but he can't do all by himself........'

"Messi vs Peru. Chances and assists wasted. Another game where his teammates went missing, and Leo was the one to try it all......."

I'll even quote you verbatim:

"It has nothing to do with him, no player can carry a team if his teammates are shit...".

"
You need a certain of level of performances from those around you (in order for you to play even better). Everything is linked, he isn't playing as well as at Barca because his teammates aren't performing the same. Pele had a fantastic team, Maradona had a fantastic team,Zidane same."

If you don't see what those statements directly imply its your fault alone. If you personally don't believe you have absolved Messi of blame, fine. But you are not the only one who had been posting about it in here. And people like the one who made the first statement two statements I quoted certainly fall into the category of absolving Messi.

Furthermore, to try to paint it as 'f-d up' and 'unreasonable' and 'extreme' for me to point the obvious discrepancy in his failure to take the big moments in Argentina with how he almost always grabs them for Barcelona, just confirms my earlier stance all the more. Because its rather abundantly clear that my position is simply this:
Messi and his team mates are collective chokers at international level, serial under performers who regularly fail to translate their extraordinary club level feats to international, which is why they are all without excuse and most likely all have a severe mental block that hopefully a Sampaoli or some other manager might be the man to help them over come in the future.
I'm yet to see you come up with one single valid reason as to how that position is flawed or extreme.

And IMO if the position counts as extreme in your view then you seriously have issues. For your response to me simply highlighting the contrast between the chances he takes for Barca whilst missing the same for Argentina, was to come up with a ludicrous defence for him that Barca create more than Argentina, so he can miss more for them. Then ran with an even more inane straw man that I some how insinuated Messi doesn't miss chances, when I highlighted why that excuse was lame. Now you've even jumped to calling me crazy

 

[giorno]

1986 Argentina was a very good team.

Maradona made 1986 Argentina a very good team. They're not even qualifying without him

 

[sun_tzu]

Maradona made 1986 Argentina a very good team. They're not even qualifying without him

Passarella, ruggeri, valdano
Are the others I remember well enough... certainly that 86 team was more than maradonna plus 10 others... but maradonna was by far the standout player

 

[Afganitia]

Maradona made 1986 Argentina a very good team. They're not even qualifying without him

Well, you consider Biglia and Banega WC. Even an semi-retired Mascherano who is no longer starter in Barcelona. You surely are overrating as feck Argentina NT.

 

[kouroux]

Maradona made 1986 Argentina a very good team. They're not even qualifying without him

Qualifiers mean feck all I'm sorry. What matters is the performance when the tournament starts. Brazil qualified with extreme difficult for the WC 2002, with the tournament we know.

 

[JustFootballFan]

Are people really saying Messi doesn´t have enough help? He´s playing for Argentina, not Antigua.

 

[antohan]

If Brazil want to do their best to get Argentina knocked out they just need to not win by more than one goal. By drawing or winning by one goal they keep their record and hurt Argentina's chances. It's irrelevant that they let Chile win since an Argentina win mean Argentina qualifies.

Brazil will play to win. It's not like Chile aren't a team worth leaving out of contention anyway.

 

[Fenomeno9]

Qualifiers mean feck all I'm sorry. What matters is the performance when the tournament starts. Brazil qualified with extreme difficult for the WC 2002, with the tournament we know.

100% facts. Current form means nothing.

 

[antohan]

1986 Argentina was a very good team.

They were indeed. Not star studded by any means but they had a strong spine and players who fit their roles in the system like a glove.

And yes, they will all admit if under pressure or out of ideas they would just give it to Diego. The key difference was they used him as and when rather than have their entire hopes pinned on getting the ball to him for 90 minutes straight.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Messi discussions where tired NBA style arguments migrate to Football.

 

[Pink Moon]

Papu got denied by an unreal save and Rigoni by a great piece of defending, those were the two chances that should have gone in and it's not like they blatantly missed, it was just brilliant defending that stopped them. Messi missed his big chance too.

It's not like his teammates played like shit, even when they play world class forwards upfront they look clueless. The problem is the system, not the players. Argentina could field 2 elevens that would walk into Peru's team.

Gomez's chance was a complete sitter no matter which way you look at it. You need to score from there. Benedetto missed a couple of great chances too that Icardi, Aguero, feck, even Higuain would've put away with their eyes closed.

 

[Snow]

100% facts. Current form means nothing.

Their current form might cause them to not qualify so obviously both form and qualification games matter.

 

[Infordin]

A post from reddit that explains the state of the Argentinian national team better than I could ever:

Its impossible to play good football under the circumstances Argentina revolves around. There's no tactical answer to the pressure that has been laid upon these players by the argentinian media and the argentinian people. This is a team that has been convinced by everyone in their country that they are a failure after 3 consecutive finals. Every change that has been proposed has failed, every new manager, every new striker, every new midfielder, every new partner for Messi. Nothing has worked. And if Messi doesn't score or "save" them at the last minute, he's done alright but not at his level.

This is not how football is meant to be played, and there's no human mind that can take a hold of the weight put on their shoulders. DiMaría gets injured during warm-ups and every big game. Gago returns and goes limp almost immediately. Higuaín has shot down mentally. The mental burden is unbearable.

And the next day, you have the entire army lined up again. Journos and fans ready to shit on them. Over and over again. TV hosts destroying the players and manager while gloating about peak rating numbers. Only to proclaim before the next match that they are the greatestest country and should win 5-0 every time. Creating expectations that do not measure up to reality, only to feed into the frustration and disdain of the people. They wanted Martino out because his team only beat small teams, they wanted Bauza out because the team played like shit, they want Sampaoli out now because he is a "vendehumo" pretentious little shit. They wanted Messi out for a while, team was a disaster. They wanted Icardi in and he goes missing, they wanted Dybala in and barely touches a ball. They wanted Benedetto up front because Bombonera is his fortress, Boca a giant and the argentinian league is better than Europe... but he misses sitters as well. The new saviour now is Alario from River. But he will fumble as well. Nothing has worked.

And amidst this entire affair, there you have Messi. Playing right wing, centre forward, deep playmaker and attacking mid at the same time. Knowing everyone is counting on him to do something. For awhile people bitched no one passed it to him, now they bitch because everyone passes it to him. They bitched because he remained up front walking the pitch because no one assisted him. Now they bitch because he drops and sometimes (!) doesn't dribble 6 opponnents at once. His character is questioned, he is not a leader like Maradona. His legacy diminished, he only scores against shit european teams. But every time a new match is approaching, everyone prays he saves them this time.

Argentina's football enviroment is facing the problem of living in an alternate reality where they are meant to win everything despite not winning anything in the past 20+ years. Of gloating about their local league and players and treating their "european" players as ball-less complacent traitors. Of pretending they know everything about football while disparaging against the modernization of the game.

Football can not be played in this atmosphere. This is a preview of what the extreme "only-results matter" perspective that seems to be growing in football more and more. Because indeed, only-results matter, but the result is pursued true hard-work, development and patience. This can not be done when your entire fanbase lacks interest in any of these factors. These are elite professional athletes crumbling down before our own eyes. I've never seen anything like this before.

 

[Fenomeno9]

Their current form might cause them to not qualify so obviously both form and qualification games matter.

In that context your right but come World Cup time current form is irrelevant.

 

[Pink Moon]

A post from reddit that explains the state of the Argentinian national team better than I could ever:

That dismissive tone towards European football probably has some truth to it tbf. For years now there's always been so many shit players in the Argentina team that play in Argentina while better players playing in Europe are ignored.

 

[Snow]

That dismissive tone towards European football probably has some truth to it tbf. For years now there's always been so many shit players in the Argentina team that play in Argentina while better players playing in Europe are ignored.

Similar for Brazil. Willian made his debut in his 5th season for Shakhtar, already with over 40 CL games under his belt. I can't remember where I read it but I've read it somewhere from players/coaches that there's bias towards players that play in Brazil over the ones that leave for Europe at a young age.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Similar for Brazil. Willian made his debut in his 5th season for Shakhtar, already with over 40 CL games under his belt. I can't remember where I read it but I've read it somewhere from players/coaches that there's bias towards players that play in Brazil over the ones that leave for Europe at a young age.

I think they will be fear that if you only call up European based players you are telling the domestic players the only way to get called up is to move in Europe. Which would worsen the exodus of South American players to Europe.

 

[kouroux]

100% facts. Current form means nothing.

Just like France were a bit rubbish and worrying in the series of friendlies leading to the WC 1998. Jacquet was one of the most criticized France headcoach in the history at one point.

They were indeed. Not star studded by any means but they had a strong spine and players who fit their roles in the system like a glove.

And yes, they will all admit if under pressure or out of ideas they would just give it to Diego. The key difference was they used him as and when rather than have their entire hopes pinned on getting the ball to him for 90 minutes straight.

Spot on. The current Argentina is a collective failure, from the players individually to the various managers setting them wrongly over and over again. A lot of people talk about the fear of not seeing Messi for WC but personally I think Argentina needs to miss out on this WC to build itself back.

 

[Gonçalo Motta]

I think they will be fear that if you only call up European based players you are telling the domestic players the only way to get called up is to move in Europe. Which would worsen the exodus of South American players to Europe.

That's actually a good point and makes sense if that's the reason behind some of their choices.

 

[ZAGREB RED]

.

Qualifiers mean feck all I'm sorry. What matters is the performance when the tournament starts. Brazil qualified with extreme difficult for the WC 2002, with the tournament we know.

I remember watching the Brazil-Belgium game in the first knockout round at that tournament, beforehand some pundits were tipping Belgium to win and a lot of people were writing Brazil off as pretty mediocre, but obviously they won that game and the tournament

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I hope they miss out on the next world cup. Then give Sampaoli 4 years to build a vision and a team for the Albiceleste. Only hunting for results without proper foundation like the English often do leads to constant failure.

 

[AshRK]

I hope they miss out on the next world cup. Then give Sampaoli 4 years to build a vision and a team for the Albiceleste. Only hunting for results without proper foundation like the English often do leads to constant failure.

That would be a disaster for Argentina. I can't see sampaoli staying , new manager will be under immense pressure. There will be no messi and other players have to up their game. It's sad the talent argentina have produced in last decade , they have nothing.much to show. Aguero, higuain, messi, di maria and now dybala , icardi and they have disappointed big time.

 

[viscaelbarca]

A generation of serial chokers in a national shirt. Messi included

No.

The only reason Argentina haven't been eliminated yet is because of messi and no one else. The players apart from him have been absolutely mediocre and the tactics haven't been anywhere near okay for a long time now. Argentina have won 5 out 6 matches with messi and won only 1 out of 6 without him in WC qualifiers just before.

The worst thing is people don't realize how important he has been and in contrast criticise him for failing with such a good team on paper, but if one actually watch argentina play he will realize what a joke players performances bar messi have been and how ridiculous the tactics are.

 

[Acheron]

If Messi retires or if he wasn't playing for them I think they should still remain a relevant and top football nation and he's also part of this group of players so I wouldn't absolve just him, or blame just him for that matter, but at this point is more a mental issue and having huge pressure. They're still qualifying and maybe once in the World Cup, and playing away from Bombonera and their public they will start better performing.

 

[giorno]

People keep saying how argentina is shite without Messi...well, they drew their last three games with Messi, too. Yeah Messi was the only guy making things happen, but still. And it's not like argentina have been crap for a long time -they played and lost 3 straight major finals. Messi has lost 4 major finals with Argentina. Yes he's been very good for them, but it's not like he wasn't part of those teams. He didn't carry those teams all the way either. It's only really been in these qualifiers where he truly had to carry them, and so far he's failed

The mistake was insisting with this group of players who were clearly mentally shot after last summer's failure(2016)

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

I hope they miss out on the next world cup. Then give Sampaoli 4 years to build a vision and a team for the Albiceleste. Only hunting for results without proper foundation like the English often do leads to constant failure.

They can't absolutely miss the WC. It would be an immense shock for them. Can see them going into a downward spiral, then.

 

[Infordin]

That would be a disaster for Argentina. I can't see sampaoli staying , new manager will be under immense pressure.

Sampaoli himself said that 2022 was the long term goal. He wants full control of the Argentinian NT, including the under-20, to build an identity of play. He even paid his own contract release clause from Sevilla just so he could coach his country.

He loves Argentina and this is his dream job. He's not going anywhere.

 

[AshRK]

Sampaoli himself said that 2022 was the long term goal. He wants full control of the Argentinian NT, including the under-20, to build an identity of play. He even paid his own contract release clause from Sevilla just so he could coach his country.

He loves Argentina and this is his dream job. He's not going anywhere.

It will be a great surprise to see Argentina board keeping him if he fails to get them to the wc. Unfortunately, that Is a sackable offense.

 

[Infordin]

It will be a great surprise to see Argentina board keeping him if he fails to get them to the wc. Unfortunately, that Is a sackable offense.

Bauza is the main reason to why Argentina are in the position they are right now.

Argentina cannot get anyone better than Sampaoli. What he did with Chile was legendary. He needs time.

 

[Ecstatic]

There is a gap in terms of quality between Messi and the others.

- Benedetto: 27 years but 2 caps only (?). Great stats with Boca but never played in Europe.
- Angel Di Maria plays for a great club I know but inconsistent player
- Gomez: 29 years but 2 caps (?)
- Banega & Biglia: experienced player ok

 

[Fenomeno9]

Sampaoli himself said that 2022 was the long term goal. He wants full control of the Argentinian NT, including the under-20, to build an identity of play. He even paid his own contract release clause from Sevilla just so he could coach his country.

He loves Argentina and this is his dream job. He's not going anywhere.

I love that idea and hopefully Tite stays on even if we don’t win the World Cup. I believe an NT needs that stability and consistency instead of a new coach every 4 year cycle.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

There is a gap in terms of quality between Messi and the others.

- Benedetto: 27 years but 2 caps only (?). Great stats with Boca but never played in Europe.
- Angel Di Maria plays for a great club I know but inconsistent player
- Gomez: 29 years but 2 caps (?)
- Banega & Biglia: experienced player ok

The keeper as well. They have never had a good one.

 

[viscaelbarca]

People keep saying how argentina is shite without Messi...well, they drew their last three games with Messi, too. Yeah Messi was the only guy making things happen, but still. And it's not like argentina have been crap for a long time -they played and lost 3 straight major finals. Messi has lost 4 major finals with Argentina. Yes he's been very good for them, but it's not like he wasn't part of those teams. He didn't carry those teams all the way either. It's only really been in these qualifiers where he truly had to carry them, and so far he's failed

The mistake was insisting with this group of players who were clearly mentally shot after last summer's failure(2016)

And its entirely possible that argentina would have lost those 3 matches instead of drawing if messi wan't there.

Argentina haven't been this crap for a long time but they have still been incompetent for a very long time. Its just now that they are in deepest of shits possible but they were never a reliable big team with minimal flaws. Spain would be a good example of what a good team it was once and how they declined but not argentina.

He has carried them always. It was a great messi + an average team that took argentina to WC finals (bar mascherano and dimaria who missed the final) and now its a little less great messi but still great + a below average team and thats why they aren't even quialifying. Not even one player can be mentioned bar messi who has been anywhere near good for argentina in the WC qualifiers.

Failed? This is not failiure. To expect one man to carry a joke of a team all alone. Its not his fault.

He will have some godly matches, some very good matches and some matches where he won't be able to do it all alone. Someone has to step up for him then. And this doesn't happen only in argentina. Take the barca treble season for example. He was just okayish in the final against juventus but the team scored 3 goals still. Why? Because barca had many more good players, not as good as messi, but good enough to make an impact in case messi fails to. In the quarters he didn't do much. Suarez ran the show by nutmegging david luiz twice and scoring a screamer. He failed to score in both legs IIRC. But he did carry barca all alone against bayern when nothing seemed to work and he alone scored 2 screamers when everyone else in barca was clueless of what to do. But does that mean he should be doing that all the time? No.

Argentina is really messi and 10 pieces of wood right now. That old saying that give me 10 pieces of wood and zidane and I will give you the CL is very wrong. No player can do shit with 10 pieces of wood, as is evident here.

 

[giorno]

Argentina haven't been this crap for a long time but they have still been incompetent for a very long time.

Four major finals between 2007 and 2016. That's not incompetence

He has carried them always. It was a great messi + an average team that took argentina to WC finals (bar mascherano and dimaria who missed the final)

Nope. Messi carried them in the group stages, and he and di maria and the post put them into the QF. Then the defence took them the rest of the way. The only thing Messi did against Belgium, Holland and Germany was missing chances. All 3 copa finals were the results of great team pefformances -in 2016 they would have gone to the final without Messi. Probably in '15 too, were Messi took a backseat until the SF against Paraguay

To expect one man to carry a joke of a team all alone. Its not his fault.

Not saying it is

Argentina is really messi and 10 pieces of wood right now. That old saying that give me 10 pieces of wood and zidane and I will give you the CL is very wrong. No player can do shit with 10 pieces of wood, as is evident here.

The saying in question means Zidane could turn 10 pieces of wood into good players, not that he could win alone. And that's been Messi's problem with Argentina his entire career: he's never made his teammates better. In fact, there's an argument to be made that he's made some of them worse...

 

[Infordin]

The keeper as well. They have never had a good one.

That's just false.

Amadeo Carrizo and Ubaldo Fillol are legends of the goalkeeper position. Roberto Abbondanzieri was also quality.

Right now, Geronimo Rulli is very good but for some reason he doesn't get a chance.

 

[Infordin]

There is a gap in terms of quality between Messi and the others.

People really don't realize how much Argentina's squad quality has decreased compared to 2006, apart from their attacking players.

Abbondanzieri
Zanetti - Samuel - Ayala - Heinze
Mascherano - Cambiasso
Riquelme - Maxi Rodriguez

Their defense and midfield was so much better a decade ago than it is today.



What is carrying Argentina's team right now is their vast riches in attacking talent - Messi, Dybala, Di Maria, Higuain, Aguero, Icardi. No country has more talent than that on paper in forward positions.

Everywhere else, they have gotten significantly worse.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Infordin

In the past, you had a team whose members were all playing in Europe

I know that as a PSG fan: Heinze, Pochettino & Sorin

 

[Infordin]

In the past, you had a team whose members were all playing in Europe

Rulli
Mercado - Otamendi - Mascherano - Acuna
Biglia - Banega
Dybala - Messi - Di Maria
Higuain

In theory, this too is a team that consists entirely of players who play in Europe (and are regular starters for very good teams).

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

That's just false.

Amadeo Carrizo and Ubaldo Fillol are legends of the goalkeeper position. Roberto Abbondanzieri was also quality.

Right now, Geronimo Rulli is very good but for some reason he doesn't get a chance.

I mainly meant in the last years.

 

[viscaelbarca]

Four major finals between 2007 and 2016. That's not incompetence


Nope. Messi carried them in the group stages, and he and di maria and the post put them into the QF. Then the defence took them the rest of the way. The only thing Messi did against Belgium, Holland and Germany was missing chances. All 3 copa finals were the results of great team pefformances -in 2016 they would have gone to the final without Messi. Probably in '15 too, were Messi took a backseat until the SF against Paraguay


Not saying it is


The saying in question means Zidane could turn 10 pieces of wood into good players, not that he could win alone. And that's been Messi's problem with Argentina his entire career: he's never made his teammates better. In fact, there's an argument to be made that he's made some of them worse...

1) As I said, there were a few good players back then that made argentina a good team and thats why they came to 4 finals. Also 3 out of those 4 were copa america where it isn't that hard to reach a final. They were always flawed but individual brilliance masked it for long and now with only messi left the flaws are extremely conspicuous.

2) The chances he missed weren't sitters. They were half chances that are missed all the time everyday. No big deal. I count the semis and the finals of the WC only where he was kind of silent but even then he didn't miss sitters and saw his team choke by missing sitters. I mentioned the barca treble in this context to show how messi was silent even in the quarters and the finals but we won convincingly. So what was the big dea if messi wasn't fire in the two matches at WC? They would have gone to the finals without messi in 16 and 15? Don't pass me whatever you are smoking. Copa is way easier than WC to reach finals in but no way argenitina would have reached finals without him. They are shambles without him and its evident from the fact that they ony won only 1 out of 6 matches without messi in WC qualifiers. Even when messi doesn't score he is the reason there is any attack happening and provides subtle influence in their attack by dropping deep. Not a single player comes to mind part from messi who could be absolved of blame of playing poorly.

3) I know what that quote meant. And it is very relevant here. There is not a player in the world today who makes others look great because of how good he is. He has bailed out neymar and suarez for ages and they both were made to look way better than they were, specifically suarez who is extremely bad at anything apart from scoring these days. The chances he puts on a plate for others and make others look great is second to none and whoever the second best player will be in this category will be a good distance behind messi. This idea that he has made players worse is such bollocks, he regularly sacrifices his stats for others and the team.