Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc

It's interesting that with all the talk of the furore surrounding the Weinstein revelations representing a watershed event, and predictions of a sea change in attitudes from now on, none of the actresses who've come forward with stories of abuse by Hollywood bigwigs other than Weinstein have named names!

Reese Witherspoon claims she was assaulted by a director when she was sixteen years old, but omits to say who he was! If he's still in the business, that individual can assault another young actress tomorrow, confident that, even in the once in a generation shitstorm Hollywood is experiencing at the moment, he will never be publicly accused. Despite all the posturing, everybody is still playing it safe.

Plus ca change...
 
That bothered me too, that she didn't name the director. What's the point in even saying anything if she's not going to act on it? Perhaps she's afraid of being blacklisted aka Tippi Hedren, etc.
Or maybe she thinks she doesn't have a good enough case to pursue it...
 
Will Absolute said:
It's interesting that with all the talk of the furore surrounding the Weinstein revelations representing a watershed event, and predictions of a sea change in attitudes from now on, none of the actresses who've come forward with stories of abuse by Hollywood bigwigs other than Weinstein have named names!

Reese Witherspoon claims she was assaulted by a director when she was sixteen years old, but omits to say who he was! If he's still in the business, that individual can assault another young actress tomorrow, confident that, even in the once in a generation shitstorm Hollywood is experiencing at the moment, he will never be publicly accused. Despite all the posturing, everybody is still playing it safe.

Plus ca change...
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One agent and a director have been named, and an extra allegation about Polanski. That's just the from the links I've posted in the last couple of pages.
 
Silva said:
One agent and a director have been named, and an extra allegation about Polanski. That's just the from the links I've posted in the last couple of pages.
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The agent was a homosexual thing, wasn't it? - which excludes the word 'actress'. Polanski has been 'out' for decades, so no risk there. Who's the director? Is this historic or contemporary? Is he dead or alive?

Pretty slim pickings considering that harassment and abuse apparently occur on every street corner in Hollywood!
 
Will Absolute said:
The agent was a homosexual thing, wasn't it? - which excludes the word 'actress'. Polanski has been 'out' for decades, so no risk there. Who's the director? Is this historic or contemporary? Is he dead or alive?

Pretty slim pickings considering that harassment and abuse apparently occur on every street corner in Hollywood!
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http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...arassment-allegations-20171018-story,amp.html

And as has been mentioned in this thread before, people are wary of coming forward by themselves for obvious blacklisting and libel issues.
 
Silva said:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...arassment-allegations-20171018-story,amp.html

And as has been mentioned in this thread before, people are wary of coming forward by themselves for obvious blacklisting and libel issues.
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They're afraid of losing work, so they're playing it safe. What's changed?

The libel threat is hardly serious. If Witherspoon's story is true, the director might issue a public denial, but the last thing he's likely to do is sue. Sit in a courtroom while a parade of former actresses take the stand to thrash his reputation? Maybe end up imprisoned for perjury or assault?
 
Will Absolute said:
They're afraid of losing work, so they're playing it safe. What's changed?

The libel threat is hardly serious. If Witherspoon's story is true, the director might issue a public denial, but the last thing he's likely to do is sue. Sit in a courtroom while a parade of former actresses take the stand to thrash his reputation? Maybe end up imprisoned for perjury or assault?
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Until there is multiple women he'll likely be on the winning side. That's why news outlets don't publish these stories until they have multiple claims against one person. If someone doesn't to take the risk to be the first to name them, I'm not going to judge.
 
Silva said:
Until there is multiple women he'll likely be on the winning side. That's why news outlets don't publish these stories until they have multiple claims against one person. If someone doesn't to take the risk to be the first to name them, I'm not going to judge.
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News outlets operate by a different standard. But they're not shy about publishing allegations of this nature, even when made by a single person. Ask Donald Trump.

It's very hard to prove libel in US law. And in the nature of things, it's a racing certainty that Witherspoon's director has a long string of angry women in his past, many of whom would happily avail of an opportunity to hammer a nail in his coffin. No way he'd go to court.
 
MadMike said:
Most powerful people in Hollywood are men. Are white. Are Jewish. Shall we blame it on the Jews? :p
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The story I have heard is that Jewish Mafia gangs moved into Hollywood. Nixon was told this when he became president and was rather shocked they had expanded so far.

This gives some info on US Jewish mafia gangs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-American_organized_crime

Apparently Weinstein's driver was not keen on him abusing women in the car and was threatened that the Mafia would terminate him unless he kept his mouth shut.
 
The Outsider said:
The story I have heard is that Jewish Mafia gangs moved into Hollywood. Nixon was told this when he became president and was rather shocked they had expanded so far.

This gives some info on US Jewish mafia gangs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-American_organized_crime

Apparently Weinstein's driver was not keen on him abusing women in the car and was threatened that the Mafia would terminate him unless he kept his mouth shut.
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Reading on American organized crime is something I enjoy. Gotta hand it to the Jews, they can hustle.
 
Nikhil said:
Letterman is an arrogant, unfunny, moody git. He's not a good interviewer at all. Never understood why people in the US like him and his show. Graham Norton and Craig Ferguson are a million times better than him.
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Letterman was fantastic. Self depreciating genius IMO. It was more about the chemistry between him and the guest, not the actual interview (yeah we know when the album is coming out).
 
Silva said:
Until there is multiple women he'll likely be on the winning side. That's why news outlets don't publish these stories until they have multiple claims against one person. If someone doesn't to take the risk to be the first to name them, I'm not going to judge.
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Wait... how does this correlate with throwing the likes of Quentin Tarantino under the bus?
 
sammsky1 said:
Likewise, sexual harassment of women has also been a massive issue in Western society, as #metoo has proven, it was just swept under the carpet by the male owners and powerbrokers of western media and infrastructure. Trump being voted President after his public misogyny, was just the last hurrah for a generation who will soon cease to exist.
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They will cease to exist but that generation passed on their views to their children. They are also young people in the world who hold those same views themselves despite what their parents taught them.

Lets not kid ourselves that misogyny and sexism will die out once a certain generation dies. I would not be surprised to see another Trump like figure voted in as president/prime minister. There are young conservatives out there and political allegiances change, so although a large majority of the 20-29 age group might identify as liberals, who knows how they will vote once they get older.

If we want instances like sexual harassment and sexual assault to decrease (I would love to say end completely but no matter what we do as a society there will always be scum), then we can't just rely on old age to kill off the abusers, we need to teach each other and the next generation what is and what isn't appropriate behavior, especially when it comes to consent.
 
Silva said:
I'm sure you could make the argument that everyone who knew deserves a degree of blame. But it's unrealistic to expect people to do that.
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It may be unrealistic or unfair to expect people (both victims and others in the know) to speak out against folks like Weinstein but you have to examine the role of staying silent in perpetuation of this kind of culture in hollywood. Even Matt Damon has now said that he knew about Paltrow's harassment via Affleck, so that's 2 more A list actors who knew.

It is a right wing talking point right now but I have no problem in believing that several others who came out with a statement expressing complete surprise at these allegations, knew about it as well. Several have hinted at other predators and made it clear that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Everything that has come out since the first allegations hit the scene, tells us that something like this must such a routine and common occurrence for young starlets in hollywood that people are not going to jeopardise their career over it. That's why you have people like QT, Pitt, Affleck who continue to work with likes of Weinstein even when their girl friends at that time had been harassed by him.

It is harsh and in some way victim-blaming to say that Paltrow coming out a decade ago could have stopped other women from getting harassed by Weinstein but that does not mean it is not true. I am happy to give second tier or below actors and artists a pass over this but less inclined to do so with A-listers like Witherspoon, Paltrow who did or do have the clout to name their harassers and potentially save future victims. Could it have affected their careers? Perhaps yes, but whistleblowers in all industries are expected to do the right thing at some cost. I understand the hesitation in expecting the victims themselves to undertake this risk but just talking about 'rape culture' is not going to achieve anything. People have to confront the harsh fact that victims staying silent for so long does enable these kind of predators and perpetuate the casting couch culture of hollywood.
 
JSArsenal said:
They will cease to exist but that generation passed on their views to their children. They are also young people in the world who hold those same views themselves despite what their parents taught them.

Lets not kid ourselves that misogyny and sexism will die out once a certain generation dies. I would not be surprised to see another Trump like figure voted in as president/prime minister. There are young conservatives out there and political allegiances change, so although a large majority of the 20-29 age group might identify as liberals, who knows how they will vote once they get older.

If we want instances like sexual harassment and sexual assault to decrease (I would love to say end completely but no matter what we do as a society there will always be scum), then we can't just rely on old age to kill off the abusers, we need to teach each other and the next generation what is and what isn't appropriate behavior, especially when it comes to consent.
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This post is full of absurdity. The notion that new 'enlightened' generations might eventually sweep most of this misbehaviour away is so contrary to the facts of Western society!

There's presently an epidemic of abuse in the dorms, frat houses and hallowed halls of American universities. Girls whose grandmothers walked the campuses unmolested are now being assaulted in record numbers. A recent study revealed that 1 in 4 female graduates experience some kind of sexual assault during her stay at a typical American institution of higher learning.

But these young people, boys and girls, are the favoured children of political correctness. They've been drinking the holy water of enlightened liberal attitudes on sex, gender roles, female empowerment etc. from the day they were born, from every tap in our media, educational system and public culture. And the result? - young men have less respect for young women than their grandfathers, as shown in the most convincing way, the lack of respect for their personal dignity.

The nonsense of blaming conservative attitudes for harassment and sexual assault, when such behaviour is particularly associated with bastions of ultra-liberalism like the media, Hollywood, the fashion industry and show business in general, speaks for itself.
 
Some of the most influential research involving campus sexual assault was that done by Mary Koss and various colleagues. The results of her first study of sexual aggression among students at Kent State University (Koss & Oros, 1982) were published in a 1982 Ms.article that popularized the term "date rape." The article was "the first national magazine article to address the issue." (Koss, 1988, p. 190). In 1983, Koss and the Ms. editors began planning research that would pinpoint the incidence of sexual assault on college campuses across the country, gather details about incidents, describe both victims and perpetrators, and examine any psychological difficulties resulting from sexual violence. The study encompassed 32 campuses of varying types and involved 6,159 participants. The scope of the study, for methodological reasons, was limited to women as victims and men as perpetrators. Surveys were administered in randomly chosen classes in 1984 and 1985.

When the results were published in 1987 (Koss, Gidycz, & Wisniewski), some of the findings were surprising. Of the female participants, 54% reported having been sexually victimized in some way, and 27.5% reported experiencing an act that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape (based on various state laws, rather than the FBI definition). Of the male participants, 25% reported exhibiting sexual aggression, and 7.7% reported behaviors that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. The rates of victimization did not differ significantly based on the size of the institution or the ethnic composition of the student body, although the rate was twice as high at private colleges and major universities as at religiously affiliated institutions. The average age of both victims and perpetrators at the time of incident(s) was between 18 and 19, indicating that traditional age first year students are the most vulnerable group.
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Unfortunately I can't find any sources going back further, but there's little reason to assume sexual assault was less of an issue for women who were never asked the question.
 
Silva said:
Unfortunately I can't find any sources going back further, but there's little reason to assume sexual assault was less of an issue for women who were never asked the question.
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I don't think research undertaken for Ms magazine in the early 80s meets the definition of 'objective'. Studies carried out by feminists were generally worthless, being designed not to discover truth but to provide fuel for political argument. In this case the definition of 'assault' was broadened to the point of becoming meaningless.

Specific statistics for campus assaults are hardly available, so one has to rely on stats for sexual assault and rape in society as a whole, which are normally closely correlated. But there's plenty of first hand accounts of university life in those days, including sexual activity, so a good deal is known about it. And, as I say, some of us can still remember.
 
Will Absolute said:
I don't think research undertaken for Ms magazine in the early 80s meets the definition of 'objective'. Studies carried out by feminists were generally worthless, being designed not to discover truth but to provide fuel for political argument. In this case the definition of 'assault' was broadened to the point of becoming meaningless.

Specific statistics for campus assaults are hardly available, so one has to rely on stats for sexual assault and rape in society as a whole, which are normally closely correlated. But there's plenty of first hand accounts of university life in those days, including sexual activity, so a good deal is known about it. And, as I say, some of us can still remember.
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Anecdotal evidence is only good so far as the person telling it and doesn't paint a full picture. I was also at university and also didn't see or experience widespread sexual assault, yet it was there. The same applies your experience, I'm glad you didn't see or experience such things but it doesn't mean much. Even if Ms. Magazine was greatly flawed, it's a better marker than our limited experiences.

And, excuse my targeting of the Irish here (I realise that hundreds of countries were no different), but Ireland has a fecking horrific record on womens rights up to and including very recent living memory. I would suggest that if you saw a world in which women were respected, you weren't paying attention.
 
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Will Absolute said:
This post is full of absurdity. The notion that new 'enlighte ned' generations might eventually sweep most of this misbehaviour away is so contrary to the facts of Western society!

There's presently an epidemic of abuse in the dorms, frat houses and hallowed halls of American universities. Girls whose grandmothers walked the campuses unmolested are now being assaulted in record numbers. A recent study revealed that 1 in 4 female graduates experience some kind of sexual assault during her stay at a typical American institution of higher learning.

But these young people, boys and girls, are the favoured children of political correctness. They've been drinking the holy water of enlightened liberal attitudes on sex, gender roles, female empowerment etc. from the day they were born, from every tap in our media, educational system and public culture. And the result? - young men have less respect for young women than their grandfathers, as shown in the most convincing way, the lack of respect for their personal dignity.

The nonsense of blaming conservative attitudes for harassment and sexual assault, when such behaviour is particularly associated with bastions of ultra-liberalism like the media, Hollywood, the fashion industry and show business in general, speaks for itself.
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Wait, what?

I did not mean to phrase it as a liberal vs conservative thing, sexual assault does not know political allegiance.

I was first addressing the point or the implication that we will never see another Trump like figure elected to government once his generation dies off. I believe this isn't the case because there are young people who share his views.

I also did not mean to imply that women are treated better now in terms of sexual assault than in the past as I have no figures to back it up. My only point being is that if we want sexual assault to decrease, then it will not happen naturally or overnight, it will require work from everyone and a reeducation on what is and is not acceptable.
 
Every objective stat available
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Specific statistics for campus assaults are hardly available
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I don't think research undertaken for Ms magazine in the early 80s meets the definition of 'objective'.
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Studies carried out by feminists were generally worthless
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What an utter mess.
 
berbatrick said:
What an utter mess.
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We have stats for societal sexual assault and rape over the course of the twentieth century, and from what we do know, the figures from college campuses should reflect those trends, even in cases where there are no specific stats available. If the figures for rape in the West during the 1950s are relatively low, it's not likely such behaviour was common on university grounds. More significantly, we know from the written accounts of alumni that the spirit of such institutions was very different from the hyper-sexualisation of the present day. It was a completely different world.

There's no point in continuing to argue about something for which no definitive proof can be offered, but I'm confident that if older women, who went to college in the 1950s, were interviewed, there would be few accounts of sexual assault.
 
Rapes_per_1000_people_1973-2003.jpg
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The above graph is subject to underreporting according to organisations that deal solely with rape victims, but it's a good indicator of the trend. I'm still struggling to find these 1950s rape stats.

I've found some historical crime data here but it's a ballache to go through. Everything you've said in this thread, and almost every other thread, has been easily debunked horseshit.
 
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Rape is down a lot in the past two decades isn't it? No idea about before that though. I expect it wasn't reported as much back in the day, either.
 
Silva said:
All violent crimes have been on a downward trend for decades. Most likely caused by the removal of lead from gasoline.
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Wow never heard that before, that's interesting. Gonna do a deep dive into google on that :)
 
Silva said:
All violent crimes have been on a downward trend for decades. Most likely caused by the removal of lead from gasoline.
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I think the lead angle has been debunked or at least it's been proven that it played a rather small role. I read about it on Reddit a while ago.
 
VorZakone said:
I think the lead angle has been debunked or at least it's been proven that it played a rather small role. I read about it on Reddit a while ago.
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I haven't seen anything, infafct I've noticed corroborating research including a biochemical mechanism of how it acts...If you have a link can you please send it?
 
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