Well obviously, you skipped history class in school didn't you?
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Britain could slash environmental and safety standards 'a very long way' after Brexit, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the UK
Brexit: the ultimate revenge for colonialism
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the UK
Brexit: the ultimate revenge for colonialism
I have yet to hear a realistic advantage of Brexit for the country as a whole.
If I remember correctly we applied (not voted) to join the EEC 3 times and were eventually successful when France stopped blocking us. We then later voted to stay (not join) by a huge majority. And things have only (inevitably) evolved slightly since then (mainly to the UK's advantage).
A politically and economically stable Europe is about peace and prosperity therough creating more and bigger markets. It makes huge economic sense for the richer countries to subsidies the poorer ones.
Few will admit to being racists. Thatcher got in repeatedly but not many would admit to voting for her.
And leaving will place a huge strain on our public services, especially health and old age care as a hugely disproportionate number of workers in many of these arease are from other EU countries. So we will either have huge labor shortfalls (100k people per year by best estimate) or we will have to bring people in from outside the UK. The same as before only in a far more complex and expensive way.
Economic stability? Leaving will utterly screw our economic stability. We had far greater deal making power as part of the EU. We just aren't that important any more. And within 10 years of leaving we will have much less to export as the banana republic exchange rate the pounds will dive to (making the cheap TV's we love so much very expensive in world terms) as many companies have set up here because we are part of the EU - we will lose lots of manufaturing capacity because we aren'tbig enough on our owm for may of them to want to continue to manufacture here - they will move to somewhere within the EU.
It wasn't at all complex. The arrogant idiot threw it as a bone to keep the far right of his party happy just assuming we would stay. Referendums should only be for constitutional issues, not used as political toys.
The Leave campaign just made it up as they went along on almost everything with much just outright lies for political ends. And the remain campaign did a rubbish job but was essentially honest.
Boris planned to run a heroic losing campaign and get a political boost from it. He was totally shocked we voted to leave. Just another posh buffoon playing with our future. Give is just plain evil in the Trump sense.
All? No. A significant proportion? Probably, even if not card carrying storm troopers. But in a more general sense it is that long term failure of politicians to do anything other than act in their own interests and the interests of the top end of town that has allowed the self destructive politics of Brexit and Trump to flourish.
What we need is less despicable politicians. Kill this lot with fire and replace them with non-lizards.
Ahhh, nothing like a skewed statistic to back up the Brexiteer. These numbers mean nothing in terms if the reality. Yes there are more EU doctors, nurses, junior doctors etc. working in the NHS since the vote but that would include people already here finishing their studies and training (takes a few years to be a medical proffessional you know...) and BEFORE Brexit has even happened and those numbers are wayyyyyyyyyy lower than what it was, or needed in this country when there’s a shortfall of 30,000.
Maybe the Torygraph can help you understand better although reading some of the standard rubbish in your posts in this thread I don’t even have hope.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/number-eu-nurses-registering-work-britain-falls-90-per-cent/
Also no disrespect to nurses in Indonesia or anywhere else outside the EU but do you even know the main reason EU nurses and doctors can come and work here is because of the unification of the education standard which exists within the union?
Do you even know that diplomas of the absloute vast majority of countries outside the EU are not recognised by the UK?
Do you understand that absolutely nothing stops any qualified person outside the EU applying to come and work here?
You claim to have done research but all you have spouted is UKIP and right wing rubbish.
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Take back control.
Cost of Brexit for workers is a week’s pay, says report
“Even before Brexit occurs, the increase in inflation caused by the Leave vote has already hurt households. Our results provide compelling evidence that, so far, households are paying an economic price for voting to leave the EU.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-workers-is-a-weeks-pay-says-report-2zvnbk065
Cost of Brexit for workers is a week’s pay, says report
“Even before Brexit occurs, the increase in inflation caused by the Leave vote has already hurt households. Our results provide compelling evidence that, so far, households are paying an economic price for voting to leave the EU.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-workers-is-a-weeks-pay-says-report-2zvnbk065
Jesus Christ. Link added.Britain could slash environmental and safety standards 'a very long way' after Brexit, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the UK
Brexit: the ultimate revenge for colonialism
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html
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I always find it strange that more isnt made of the fact that it was the UK that pushed hardest for the EU enlargement that lies at the core of the problems we now have with the EU and made us want to leave. Before that it was a club of countries of much more comparable economic levels, meaning there was much less reason for people within the block to migrate from one place to another en masse looking for work. You would get people moving around for specific jobs of course, but that would be far more evenly spread. It was when we invited the much poorer former Soviet states in that you got this massive spike in migration and while I believe that was an economic net positive for the UK, clearly there was a cultural and political cost that urban liberals like myself - the "anywheres" - never fully appreciated.
As a country, we pushed hard for changes that a lot of other countries - like France - resisted, and then once the implications of those changes started to really be felt we walked away, leaving the others to wrestle with the problems themselves.
I actually think whether the UK leaves or not (I assume it will) the EU will end up addressing the issue of free movement anyway, given how toxic it has become across the whole EU. So it could end up being a situation where the UK leaves and then the EU passes the reforms that would have kept it in, but too late to make any difference to us.
As a country, we pushed hard for changes that a lot of other countries - like France - resisted, and then once the implications of those changes started to really be felt we walked away, leaving the others to wrestle with the problems themselves.
I actually think whether the UK leaves or not (I assume it will) the EU will end up addressing the issue of free movement anyway, given how toxic it has become across the whole EU. So it could end up being a situation where the UK leaves and then the EU passes the reforms that would have kept it in, but too late to make any difference to us.
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At last a considered opinion well said. Sadly I find myself thinking along similar lines. Like many middle class folk (which I reckon encompasses most of the pro Eu faction on this board) I have done well from EU membership and even the financial crisis led to my assets increasing as it did for the majority of folk with assets. Ridiculously low and false interest rates are indeed a real boon. Trouble was that like most I ignored the poor sods that the system left behind as those on both sides of the fence continue to do. Its not just the Brexiters who seem to not care a toss for those less fortunate than themselves almost all those who advocate remain are just as much up their own backsides.
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What country is it as toxic in as the UK though?
I mean Germany is the 2nd most popular immigration destination in the world after the US, they don't really seem to hate immigrants, do they? The Swedes recently accepted 1,000,000+ refugees (which has come with problems, but the Swede's being the awesome people they are seem to have largely accepted them), etc.
Here in Ireland a country with almost entirely emigration to having 15% of our population (that's more per capita than anywhere else in the EU I believe) as immigrants during the Celtic Tiger (and it's back into net immigration again since the recovery) and we don't hate it. Sure you get the odd racist old prick who can't stand them (taxi drivers, usually), but mostly we accept that it was a very important part of our growth and wealth, and without the Pole's we would've never filled up all the jobs we had in our booming economy. We certainly don't hate the Pole's now either, we've accepted them pretty well, and this is a country known for being notoriously backwards up until around 20 years ago.
I think, maybe, the difference between most countries (us included) and the UK is that the UK has always been rich and emigration has never really been a thing, whereas throughout our history we've had mass emigration (as recently as the crash in 2009-2013) so we're probably more accepting of migrants coming our way now as a result. But that's a guess!
You have to understand that the EU will never address the freedom of movement of people because “addressing” it to the appeasement of those concerned only means eastern Europeans shouldn’t have the right to move freely within the EU, and they are full members with full equal rights within the EU so wouldn’t be idiotic enough to vote for and ratify that.
Well to be honest I have no direct experience of this toxicity outside the UK because I have never lived elsewhere in Europe, so I am going on what I read. But what I read is that it is pretty bloody toxic all over. You cite Germany, is it not the case that anti immigration sentiment is rising fast in Germany as a response to Merkel opening the borders to refugees? Again, I dont want to make out I know much about this first hand but this is what I have been reading. They have a big problem, OK the AfD is still a relatively young party / movement, but it has been gaining ground pretty quickly. Itll be interesting to see how the next election goes over there.
Similarly in places like Sweden. Again, here there is a disconnect between what the government - which seems to be very liberal - is doing, and the way that is being perceived by the general public. It seems they might be going through a similar stage to the one the UK went through in the 90s when we first started seeing a lot of Poles coming to the UK and UKIP started to gain a lot more traction. Obviously its quite different for a number of reasons, not least that they are not dealing with Europeans so much as Africans and Arabs, with the added cultural implications of that. Also, in the 90s the economy was in a much better place to absorb this kind of influx, now it is seen to be compounding the problems of the poorest sections of society. It is at these times of economic stress that this kind of scapegoating that you currently see of immigrants takes off.
You have the rise of the National Front in France, you have increasingly intolerant attitudes in places like the Netherlands - even if Wilders doesnt seem to be able to capitalise on it in quite the same way. And that is before you get into the attitudes in places like Poland and Hungary. Again, I know very little about these countries really, but it does seem there is a lot of push back from them on this free movement issue, particularly when it comes to EU efforts to share out the immigrants across the block, to relieve pressure on Italy and Greece, where most of them arrive in the EU. I think a lot of the rest of the EU is slightly burying its head in the sand at the moment when it comes to what is going on in Italy and Greece, those countries have problems that have to be resolved at some point.
Or you leave medically incapacitated people with zero income. When you stop classifying sick people as unemployed they don't magically get a job.
For the already rich top end of town. The greatest con job of all time is getting the working poor to vote Tory. If you are getting fisted up to the the shoulder joint you should at least know it.
Yet leaving will be disproportionately worse for the poor, working or otherwise. How could it not? Even just looking at the shower of shit we call MPs should be argument enough that we are better off in Europe.
Yes it is
There are two different things here - there is some animosity against foreigners in France for sure but it's generally not against European immigrants. The Brexit vote is about immigrants from the EU although it is clear that Brexiters are confused and think it also affects the immigration of non-EU people. Secondly the Uk didn't sign up to bring in large quantities of refugees so there are no large hordes of refugees that are going to invade the country , yet another lie circulated by the brownshirts.
I dont think this distinction means much, in practice. You have Italy and Greece dealing with huge numbers of arrivals from outside the EU, if the rest of the EU doesnt agree to share the burden the whole case for free movement of people starts to break down, regardless of whether the migrants in question were born inside the EU or not.
I had a lot more sympathy for certain parts of the country before they voted to self destruct not only mine, but their own lives in a variety of colourful ways. Because despite having sympathy for people who are economically struggling, I also give them the respect of assuming they are just as capable of addressing facts and news as I am. If they did and still voted Brexit then they're idiots, and if they didn't research and still voted Leave then they're irresponsible idiots.
Frankly I'm getting a bit sick of this patronizing idea that people from poor working class areas should be treated like children. I'm from an ex-mining village and grew up around many of the people who voted Leave. They don't need people saying 'oh my gosh, we totally didn't understand how bad you poor folks had it!' they need a kick up the backside and a reminder that if they don't look after their own economic best interests then a bunch of public school boys in Westminster sure as feck aren't going to.
The distinction means a lot since FN voters rejected them when they started to use anti EU discourse, it's also the main reason behind the recent implosion of the party.
Fair enough. We'll see how it plays out.
Stupid question, but if Italy and Greece grant it's 'arrivals' citizenship would they not then be entitled to move anywhere in the EU? I know there's a thing about having to support themselves but most have come to work of course.
Theresa May's "negotiating" reminds me of mother Fecker Jones.
Hopefully someone who knows more about this can answer your question a bit more authoritatively than I can. But my understanding is no, if they are granted asylum that does not give them the right to full free movement. They are not actually being granted citizenship in that sense. Though obviously they will still move around within the EU even if they are not supposed to.
Wow, not even sure where to start with that totally biased one-sided, frankly rude response!
Anyways here’s an example:
Britain could slash environmental and safety standards 'a very long way' after Brexit, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the UK
Brexit: the ultimate revenge for colonialism
Someone needs to remind this asshat that we're in 2017 and not 1917. Ridiculous twat.
It's not what you think, he is talking about PESCO. Also quite ironically, the UK alongside Germany, Italy and Spain are one of the main example behind this idea, you are partners in Eurofighters and mutualised your resources and knowledge in order to minimize cost and be more effective. France was initially in it but left very early because of disagreements.
Don't know the complete answer to this but:
Did the refugees in Calais break through into Dover : No
Does the UK have open borders before Brexit: No (apart from the Irish one nobody wants to shut)
Can the UK refuse entry to their country: Yes, people entering have to meet criteria
Has the UK accepted to take in large numbers of refugees: No
Perhaps add to the equation:
Does the UK sell arms to countries that have caused the fleeing of said refugees: Yes
Will the Uk stop selling these arms: No
Just for transparencies sake, I voted Tory at last election however:
2010 - Lib Dem: believed country needed austerity but was worried Tories would come down too hard, so wanted Lib Dem to help regulate via coalition, which happened.
2015 - UKIP: was already anti-EU and wanted my voice (vote) added to the many millions that wanted it to be a real issue (and hopefully a referendum one day!)
2017 - Tory: Thought that Tories would be the best for us re negotiating tough with EU (disappointing thus far).
But I also get why people vote other ways, in fact I encouraged my cousin, Junior Doctor who wanted to vote Labour at last election.
My lefty friends/family think I’m a Tory posh boy, and my Tory friends/family think I’m a champagne socialist!
I have tough skin
It's ok, it's just yet more evidence that most Tories wouldn't know a socialist if it jumped up and bit them.
Ive always heard about these people who voted Lib Dem in 2010 and then UKIP in 2015 but I always assumed they were a myth.
Thanks, but what I meant was if Greece did grant them citizenship as opposed to mere asylum. Since I asked I've thought maybe the EU allows free movement only to people who have been citizens of a member for a qualifying period or something, otherwise granting everyone citizenship seems a too obvious solution for Greece.
I never mentioned the UK, Brexit, or selling arms you knee-jerking loon, I was questioning what action Greece and Italy might be able to take from their point of view, namely to make their asylum seekers citizens and watch them move on. I've no doubt it wouldn't work, hence why I called it a stupid question, I was just wondering if anyone could tell me why.
Oh right. Well yes, absolutely, if Italy and/or Greece started awarding citizenship to people then yes they would then become Italians / Greeks and as such have the same rights as any other EU citizen. I dont know how likely that would be to happen to be honest but if there is no deal to relieve the pressure in Italy and Greece they might start to talk about something like this.
I assume that you mean residents and not citizens, in that case only long term residents have the same right than EU nationals and even then they need to be registered and granted a leave to remain.
To become citizens or residents they would have to fulful the criteria of those countries. Since we're in the UK Brexit thread don't see what's knee-jerking about it when you then infer that they could move anywhere in the EU
Right, you might be highlighting my lack of knowledge. I didn't say resident status, I meant full Greek citizenship, would that not automatically make them EU nationals with the same rights as any other EU national?
Yes, I'm wondering if Greece might consider changing their criteria for citizenship. Arms sales my arse, thread title or no thread title.
It would but that's not a good thing for Greece and Italy, they would be totally responsible for these people and they would have to pray for them to find a job in other EU countries, it's also a huge incentive to migrants to come to Greece and Italy.
I don't know how difficult it is to meet the Greek criteria but if they were to consider changing it, surely it would require massive resources to put it into practice.
Apologies for the arms bit, not my usual type of arguments, had an overwhelming urge to include a cause/effect statement