Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Silva]

How many people qualify in either one of the two criterias?

Idk, enough. That's why the Tories win the countryside and richer London boroughs and Labour win the urban areas.

 

[Sweet Square]

We have the same in my country. The middle class had kept the Nationalist party (ie our tory party version) in government for nearly 25 years. However the NHS and education were always red lines in Malta. When the socialists tried to mess around those 2, the situation got nasty and they ended up out of government for 25 years (they did governed for 2 years but that government collapsed).

Which makes me wonder why do the UK voters allows this shit to happen? We're speaking of the UK here, one of the most prosperious countries in the world. Surely the government can afford providing decent free education and health care if they want to.

To put it very bluntly - a lot people in this country still think the reason for the crisis in 2008 was because the government overspent on health care and schools.

Example

Spoiler

Although all this seems from longer historical reasons - nearly 40 odds years of the same political ideology, constant attack on the working classes, break down of collectivism, etc.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Back to Brexit

The prime minister has told reporters that phase two Brexit talks will start “straight away”, despite Jean-Claude Juncker saying they will commence in March next year.

Another discussion with themselves.

 

[devilish]

Idk, enough. That's why the Tories win the countryside and richer London boroughs and Labour win the urban areas.

Both my missus and I are professionals. We both earn good salaries and we live in a good ‘expensive’ area. However we are still reliant on the NHS and public education (if I ever have kids). If we don’t have that, then for us it’s not worth living in the UK anymore. Everything from rent to transport right to food, electricity, child-care and heating is expensive. We’re talking of the strict necessaries here

I am pretty sure that we make part of the upper middle class and yet, if we ever have kids then our standard of living will nose-dive significantly. Same can be said about most of our friends who most have a good high paying job.

Which makes me wonder, how many people can afford losing the NHS or see public education go tits up? Surely it’s a minority. Also most of these people must have siblings or friends who would struggle if these two sectors are hit. Those who do not, must be educated enough to feel disgusted of how the likes of Gove, Davies and Johnson act and still get away with it. Surely they must understand the enormous damage these officials are doing and would want to punish the party who placed them there in the first place.

I respect your opinion but in my opinion its a matter of chickens voting for Christmas.

 

[devilish]

To put it very bluntly - a lot people in this country still think the reason for the crisis in 2008 was because the government overspent on health care and schools.

Example

Spoiler

Although all this seems from longer historical reasons - nearly 40 odds years of the same political ideology, constant attack on the working classes, break down of collectivism, etc.

Some of the things the unions here are allowed to do defy logic. For example I never understood how the tube drivers union is able to paralyse an entire city for the most ridiculous of reasons and get away with it. That doesn't make sense to me.

Having said that, that is not enough to justify why people vote Tories. Its like shooting at your feet because of an ingrown toe nail.

 

[Stanley Road]

How many rich old people read the Sun, Mail, Express and Star

I don't know their ages but it seems most people on here read them, just look how many quotes & links there are from those papers.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I don't know their ages but it seems most people on here read them, just look how many quotes & links there are from those papers.

Do you have many papers like that in Holland?

 

[Stanley Road]

Do you have many papers like that in Holland?

The honest answer is I don't know, I very much doubt it. I prefer to watch the news than to read it unless my mrs points out an article that I may be interested in.

 

[Smores]

In which way do Labour voters vote against their interest?

For people like myself id be better off voting Tory. I live down south and earn a decent wage, I've got private healthcare etc.

I mean its not all one way, there are benefits to me voting Labour on other services but the core elements of why people vote Tory (i.e taxes) are still present for some Labour voters.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/32236/15-euco-art50-guidelines-en.pdf

European Council Guidelines, today's meeting

 

[The Outsider]

Both my missus and I are professionals. We both earn good salaries and we live in a good ‘expensive’ area. However we are still reliant on the NHS and public education (if I ever have kids). If we don’t have that, then for us it’s not worth living in the UK anymore. Everything from rent to transport right to food, electricity, child-care and heating is expensive. We’re talking of the strict necessaries here

I am pretty sure that we make part of the upper middle class and yet, if we ever have kids then our standard of living will nose-dive significantly. Same can be said about most of our friends who most have a good high paying job.

Which makes me wonder, how many people can afford losing the NHS or see public education go tits up? Surely it’s a minority. Also most of these people must have siblings or friends who would struggle if these two sectors are hit. Those who do not, must be educated enough to feel disgusted of how the likes of Gove, Davies and Johnson act and still get away with it. Surely they must understand the enormous damage these officials are doing and would want to punish the party who placed them there in the first place.

Unless you have your own accountant and solicitor I doubt you are part of the upper middle class perhaps lower middle class.

Here's my thoughts on voting patterns -

2015 Election we had sizable votes for UKIP and Greens, Tories panicked and promised a referendum since then politics has become polarised although that may have happened anyway as neither Greens or UKIP got any additional seats.

This is how I see the main voting split:


Labour

Workers in state industries and state services mostly vote Labour.

Benefit recipients mostly vote Labour.

Recent immigrants mostly vote Labour.

Socialist ideologues.


Tories

Business interests mostly vote Tory.

Self-employed mostly vote Tory.

Libertarian idealogues.


Groups that switch depending on policy and whether that policy is trusted.

Pensioners

Working classes in private industries and services.

 

[afrocentricity]

People need to think about more than themselves...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

For people like myself id be better off voting Tory. I live down south and earn a decent wage, I've got private healthcare etc.

I mean its not all one way, there are benefits to me voting Labour on other services but the core elements of why people vote Tory (i.e taxes) are still present for some Labour voters.

I’m similar, though living up North. I have private healthcare and am most likely Brexit proof. My economic interests would be 100% better protected with a Tory vote. I have only ever voted Labour though. Perhaps it is coming from the Manchester area, although my family are more inclined to the right politically.

 

[711]

Back to Brexit, I see on the news a joint press conference between the two premiers of France and Germany, which is fair enough as two separate nations, and in the background a French flag, a German flag and an EU flag. In front of this they spell out the aims of the EU. Just the two of them.

To paraphrase Orwell, every EU member is equal, but some are more equal than others.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Back to Brexit, I see on the news a joint press conference between the two premiers of France and Germany, which is fair enough as two separate nations, and in the background a French flag, a German flag and an EU flag. In front of this they spell out the aims of the EU. Just the two of them.

To paraphrase Orwell, every EU member is equal, but some are more equal than others.

Well yeah, that’s why now the UK have left Trump will be tapping up the Austrian Premier for influence, cause they all have a veto and equal influence....right?..

 

[711]

Maybe the EU should have an elected president, prime minister or whatever that could speak for it. The key being elected, by the citizens of all the countries, not just some.

 

[Pexbo]

Maybe the EU should have an elected president, prime minister or whatever that could speak for it. The key being elected, by all the citizens, not just some.

How would that vote work?

Germany get ~60m votes? France and England ~40m, Ireland ~3m?

 

[711]

How would that vote work?

Germany get ~60m votes? France and England ~40m, Ireland ~3m?

Well you missed out Poland, Belgium et al, but a lot of options, could be a country's vote based on population, or why not the simple 'one man one vote' as the old slogan goes, although maybe updating that for women in some way would be a good idea.

My point is that an Italians or whatever's vote should count the same as a Germans. If the leaders of France and Germany had delivered their speech in front of their own flags that would have been fine, but they didn't, it was the EU flag in the middle, and I don't see what right they have to appoint themselves as EU spokesmen.

 

[Pexbo]

Well you missed out Poland, Belgium et al, but a lot of options, could be a country's vote based on population, or why not the simple 'one man one vote' as the old slogan goes, although maybe updating that for women in some way would be a good idea.

My point is that an Italians or whatever's vote should count the same as a Germans. If the leaders of France and Germany had delivered their speech in front of their own flags that would have been fine, but they didn't, it was the EU flag in the middle, and I don't see what right they have to appoint themselves as EU spokesmen.

I didn’t miss out anyone it was just examples to make a point. If it’s one person one vote then you’re going to see blocks like France and Germany formed where media and governments guide their populations to vote how they want them to vote and then you have a voting power which dwarfs the total number of votes the 10 smallest countries combined can make.

Conversely, if it’s an electoral college style vote where each country gets one vote, you’re going to have countries with 3m voters having the same power as countries with 50m.


There’s no such thing as “fair”. People will always moan at perceived inequalities. It just has to be a collective effort to operate in the best interests of everyone. It’s not perfect but it’s a damn sight better than having a bunch of paranoid isolationists who only give a shit about themselves. Note, “themselves” rather than “their country” because for all the Union Jack profile pictures it’s only their own interests they care about otherwise they’d have stopped this self harm ages ago.

 

[711]

I didn’t miss out anyone it was just examples to make a point. If it’s one person one vote then you’re going to see blocks like France and Germany formed where media and governments guide their populations to vote how they want them to vote and then you have a voting power which dwarfs the total number of votes the 10 smallest countries combined can make.

Conversely, if it’s an electoral college style vote where each country gets one vote, you’re going to have countries with 3m voters having the same power as countries with 50m.


There’s no such thing as “fair”. People will always moan at perceived inequalities. It just has to be a collective effort to operate in the best interests of everyone. It’s not perfect but it’s a damn sight better than having a bunch of paranoid isolationists who only give a shit about themselves. Note, “themselves” rather than “their country” because for all the Union Jack profile pictures it’s only their own interests they care about otherwise they’d have stopped this self harm ages ago.

If it were one person one vote then it wouldn't matter which country they lived in, would it?
Which is my point, and hopefully what the EU should be about, I'm just questioning whether it is or not.

I'm not sure if the perceived, paranoid, shit and themselves jibes are aimed at me or not, in any case I'll put them down to the time of night unless you say different.

 

[devilish]

Unless you have your own accountant and solicitor I doubt you are part of the upper middle class perhaps lower middle class.

Here's my thoughts on voting patterns -

2015 Election we had sizable votes for UKIP and Greens, Tories panicked and promised a referendum since then politics has become polarised although that may have happened anyway as neither Greens or UKIP got any additional seats.

This is how I see the main voting split:


Labour

Workers in state industries and state services mostly vote Labour.

Benefit recipients mostly vote Labour.

Recent immigrants mostly vote Labour.

Socialist ideologues.


Tories

Business interests mostly vote Tory.

Self-employed mostly vote Tory.

Libertarian idealogues.


Groups that switch depending on policy and whether that policy is trusted.

Pensioners

Working classes in private industries and services.

I can afford and probably I should use both an accountant and a solicitor. However I can't get arsed doing so. I can take care of my accounts. I have no intention of avoiding paying tax as I think its one's duty to do so and I also love living a simple life. There again, I do feel that my taxpayer's money should be invested well which means more on the NHS and education and far less on military, the monarchy and bribes to the DUP.

All I am saying is that I don't understand how a party whose so dedicated to a tiny minority of people (ie the wealthy) can still win GE. It doesn't make sense to me

 

[Mozza]

I can afford and probably I should use both an accountant and a solicitor. However I can't get arsed doing so. I can take care of my accounts. I have no intention of avoiding paying tax as I think its one's duty to do so and I also love living a simple life. There again, I do feel that my taxpayer's money should be invested well which means more on the NHS and education and far less on military, the monarchy and bribes to the DUP.

All I am saying is that I don't understand how a party whose so dedicated to a tiny minority of people (ie the wealthy) can still win GE. It doesn't make sense to me

You convince the middle they are wealthy or going to be wealthy. You convince them that cutting taxes will make them rich. You convince the middle that the poor are poor by choice so deserve nothing, so cut the services that keeps your taxes high

 

[Adisa]

You convince the middle they are wealthy or going to be wealthy. You convince them that cutting taxes will make them rich. You convince the middle that the poor are poor by choice so deserve nothing, so cut the services that keeps your taxes high

The right, still convince the poor to vote for them.

 

[Mozza]

The right, still convince the poor to vote for them.

You get the white poor to hate the brown poor by saying they are the reason you've got no money

 

[Adisa]

You get the white poor to hate the brown poor by saying they are the reason you've got no money

Very true.

 

[JPRouve]

You get the white poor to hate the brown poor by saying they are the reason you've got no money

Then you explain to the brown poor that you are not racist, you just want to give equal chances to everyone which is good for him.

 

[Member 5225]

Such a likeable fella

 

[Oscie]

He's right

 

[Dobba]

If only his self-awareness was even 1/10th of his ego.

 

[Adisa]

He often speaks sense.
The problem is that he isn't aware him saying these things won't help matters.

 

[Oscie]

He often speaks sense.
The problem is that he isn't aware him saying these things won't help matters.

The problem is that those from the left shout down the only person in politics who seem to be actually opposing what the Tories are doing.

Tories: Hard Brexit! Which means leaving the single market and customs union!
Labour: Soft Brexit! But we must leave the single market and customs union!
Blair: Um..how about no Bre-
The Left: Shut up! War criminal!


Might not like Blair but at some point it has to be acknowledged he's pretty much the ONLY person of note making the case the majority of Labour voters want someoen to be making. And that isn't that we should rethink the whole thing. Constantly shouting him down if you're going to make the anti-Brexit point is one thing. Shouting him down and not doing so then all you're doing is aiding the Tories. Trust me, I'm not thrilled nobody of note in the Labour party are saying what he is either.

I don't really get Labour's position. It seems to be:

"We were lied to! So let's deliver the thing that we were lied to about!"

 

[Tarrou]

Maybe Blair should shut up? He's the last person anyone is going to listen to, least of all the Brexiters.

 

[Cheesy]

And no matter how sensible it may be, just cancelling Brexit isn't really an option when any claim that they 'lied' can be countered with lies of the Remain side, even if those lies may have paled in comparison to what Boris et al were spewing.

 

[Sweet Square]

It's worth saying that Corbyn has said many times that if there's a case to bring Blair to trial then it should happen, so it's easy to see why old tony doesn't want a Labour government.

 

[Member 5225]

The saddest thing about Brexit, is the rhetoric used by the Conservative party was complete guff. They never used the tools given to them to curb immigration, because they didn't want to.

Tool 1 - Changes to taxation.

I've mentioned this many times on here, but simply changing taxation could have cut immigration fairly drastically. They actually made it worse, by increasing the 'take home pay' from low paying jobs (not that I am against that).

https://infacts.org/government-use-taxation-restrict-immigration/

Now there are sensible reasons not to have implemented this, you can question whether it's fair, whether it will increase poverty, how it will affect returning ex-pats and why the government should have to resort to such backwards taxation anyway... but it was a tool that no government chose to use to curb immigration.

And actually, when the worst part if EU immigration is the reduction in low-skilled wages over time, this would have reversed that.

Tool 2 - Ask migrants without a job for three months to leave.

David Cameron claimed he'd got a concession that allowed migrants that haven't had a job here for 6 months to be asked to leave. But we already had that right.


And we (Theresa May/David Cameron) just didn't use it.

Tool 3 - Ask migrants to register with the local government,

Pretty much every other country requires you to register with the local government.

Tool 4 - Ask everyone to get Health Insurance (UK Citz would use the NHS)

A bit of a weird one. Healthcare is entirely devolved to the countries in question. This goes against the whole point of the NHS, but...

You are allowed to require people working in the UK to have private Health Insurance. You could also give everyone who has been in the UK for over a year "NHS Health Insurance." EU migrants would still get this NHS Health Insurance after a year, but would need to get their own Health Insurance to start with...

There are any number of tools available. And yet, the Conservative government didn't choose to use any of them. Why? Because Immigration is good for the UK.

It's all bollocks.

EU citizens aren't entitled to benefits until they are permanent residents though which is 5 years, before that they can be deported on the ground that they are a burden on the welfare system.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36449974

hmmm

Home Office policy to deport EU rough sleepers ruled unlawful
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...olicy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

 

[JPRouve]

hmmm

Home Office policy to deport EU rough sleepers ruled unlawful
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...olicy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

If you read the article, there is no abuse of welfare system and these people for a big part allegedly have employment, also you can't use a systematic method to deport people you have to prove that they are a burden case by case.

 

[Oscie]

It's worth saying that Corbyn has said many times that if there's a case to bring Blair to trial then it should happen, so it's easy to see why old tony doesn't want a Labour government.

But there isn't really a case. Calling Blair a war criminal is something George Galloway does. So far nobody who matters has at all been convinced there's anything for him to answer to. Thinking someone is guilty of something is fine, but it doesn't it so.

 

[Oscie]

And no matter how sensible it may be, just cancelling Brexit isn't really an option when any claim that they 'lied' can be countered with lies of the Remain side, even if those lies may have paled in comparison to what Boris et al were spewing.

Remain didn't win. If you were conned into buying double glazing, the company that conned you can't argue that it doesn't matter because the other company that was courting your business were trying to con you too.

 

[Barca84]

But there isn't really a case. Calling Blair a war criminal is something George Galloway does. So far nobody who matters has at all been convinced there's anything for him to answer to. Thinking someone is guilty of something is fine, but it doesn't it so.

Oh there's plenty who regard Blair as a war criminal beyond that clown Galloway. Start with Michael Mansfield QC for example. Teflon Tony gets a free pass though due to his ability to hide behind immunity and the vagueness of UK law when it comes to a crime of aggression.

Or you could listen to this chap..



....or indeed any of the relatives of the estimated (ORB survey 2007) 1.2 million casualties since 2003. I guess they don't matter at all really do they?

 

[Dobba]

The problem is that those from the left shout down the only person in politics who seem to be actually opposing what the Tories are doing.

Tories: Hard Brexit! Which means leaving the single market and customs union!
Labour: Soft Brexit! But we must leave the single market and customs union!
Blair: Um..how about no Bre-
The Left: Shut up! War criminal!


Might not like Blair but at some point it has to be acknowledged he's pretty much the ONLY person of note making the case the majority of Labour voters want someoen to be making. And that isn't that we should rethink the whole thing. Constantly shouting him down if you're going to make the anti-Brexit point is one thing. Shouting him down and not doing so then all you're doing is aiding the Tories. Trust me, I'm not thrilled nobody of note in the Labour party are saying what he is either.

I don't really get Labour's position. It seems to be:

"We were lied to! So let's deliver the thing that we were lied to about!"

Are those the same Tories Blair was telling people to think about voting for at the last election? Five minutes after saying Corbyn's Labour was only interested in protest, not power - a viewpoint he's done a complete 180 on in the last 24 hours?

So which of these people do they listen to again?