Swastika is not just a Nazi sign though. It is a very important sign of Hindu culture.
"Blackface" Discussion
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Swastika is not just a Nazi sign though. It is a very important sign of Hindu culture.
You must have missed the post I was responding to then.
He's clearly arguing from the hypothetical perspective of not knowing what a swastika is. It is offensive regardless of whether you knew that or not. That is the point.
My honest opinion is no - I don't think he did anything wrong. I just don't live in a world where I see a problem with someone innocently dressing up as a black man.
I just used that as an example to show that intentions clearly matter. And you can cause someone's death and be found not liable too.
And Jippy not being Hindu and walking in a Jewish neighbourhood will make that argument difficult to sustain. But you are right to point to the different meaning in Hindu culture.
Well, no, you've just not really read it in context.
He responded to someone completely absolving Griezmann of his actions because he didn't mean to cause any offence by saying that intention was irrelevant as the act itself was racist.
In the grander scheme of things, intention is important, which is why MoneyMay knows, hence why he went on to emphasise how you can do or say something racist without actually being a racist.
That is wonderful for you but bares no relevance to this incident, or in fact the world we actually live in.
Out of curiosity - was he dressed up as an individual black man, celebrity or character?
Or did he don a costume and some black paint and figure that that’s a good enough representation of black people?
Does anyone even know which Harlem Globetrotter he was meant to be?
Of course it's still offensive, and people will naturally assume that he does know what it is. But if Jippy really did not have a clue what a swastika was or what it represented, and he just accidentally wandered into a Jewish neighborhood (a fairly ludicrous example, but ok) I honestly don't think he deserves condemnation in that scenario. He deserves to be educated.
And people, including MoneyMay, have said that this doesn't make Griezmann a racist. It was still a racist act though, even if it was done through ignorance. He's not on the hook for being a racist, but he still did something racist.
Just like you can not be on the hook for killing someone (i.e. be charged with murder/manslaughter), yet can still have killed someone.
Or with your other example, you can accidentally trip someone over through no fault of your own and them be entirely fine with it, but just as if you'd done it intentionally, you still tripped someone over and they may have hurt themselves in the process.
We actually had them on our wedding invites, which raised eyebrows in my family.
Yep, I can't rely hide behind my wife's ethnicity.
This is the Lukaku thread all over again.
It was a pretty lame example, I'll give you that, but lack of intent isn't a licence to get away with stuff. Ignorance isn't a defence.
Feck me, what a post.
Jose sign him up. Hopefully at a discount now!
It was a silly mistake. Presumably someone will now educate him on the history of blackface and he will release an apologetic statement.
It was a silly mistake. Presumably someone will now educate him on the history of blackface and he will release an apologetic statement.
It's not that intent does not matter; it's that the act overshadows the intent - so the intention becomes a much smaller thing.
People who kill with intent are charged with murder whilst no intent is deemed manslaughter. (I think anyway)
Either way someone died & that's the important thing. Whether AG had any intentions to hurt people or not; he ended up hurting some people & if it doesn't hurt you doesn't mean it doesn't hurt others.
People who kill with intent are charged with murder whilst no intent is deemed manslaughter. (I think anyway)
Either way someone died & that's the important thing. Whether AG had any intentions to hurt people or not; he ended up hurting some people & if it doesn't hurt you doesn't mean it doesn't hurt others.
I think he could rightfully be called an idiot, or labeled ignorant, which is pretty much the extent of the backlash against Griezmann on here. I'm led to believe there are people calling for his head on social media, but that happens with a lot of things nowadays and they're best left to themselves.
Jippy's point was that if he were to be blissfully unaware of the historic use of a swastika and instead think of it as nothing more than a cool looking logo, then wear a t-shirt with a swastika visibly printed on it through a Jewish neighbourhood, regardless of his intentions, the residents would have a right to take offence to his actions.
As you said, he would obviously need to be educated, as Griezmann needs to be now, but if we completely absolve people of responsibility for their actions because they've claimed ignorance then you're giving people a free pass to do and say a lot of horrible things at least once.
Yeah it's a bad mistake but it’s one he won’t be castigated long term for. It will all be forgotten about soon enough because he's clearly not an avowed racist.
People are sensitive to this, some with good reason, some with not. But it's worth pointing out what he did was wrong and then move on.
The black one with the afro, obviously.
He was wearing this, which isn't exactly a real jersey.
The hair in this outfit is already toeing a line, but would likely get a pass. The blackface is just outright unacceptable.
If you're ignorant you're by definition not trying to "get away" with anything. You're just ignorant.
Griezmann (it appears) was ignorant, he intended no harm (quite the opposite it seems), and he immediately apologized when it was pointed out to him. I see no reason why he deserves any condemnation what so ever here. He made a mistake and apologized, move on.
Yep, but the Nazi version is an inverted form. Its' fairly common here. I myself have Swastika knick-knacks at home and even a tee, but I don't wear them or bring them with me when I go abroad. Obviously it could be misunderstood by people of other cultures and you have to respect their sensibilities when on their turf.
He was wearing this, which isn't exactly a real jersey.
Precisely.
I don’t actually remember many globetrotters with huge afros, his outfit just seemed like a stereotype.
If he was actually paying homage, then I would expect an actual jersey and shorts, with the name of a particular globetrotter on the back of it. He can certainly afford it.
Instead he not only wore a basic outfit, but decided to try being black too.
Quite frankly, the guy in this pic didn’t need the Afro, anyone who takes a brief look at that picture can determine he’s impersonating the globetrotters.
No blacking up was necessary.
He was wearing this, which isn't exactly a real jersey.
Notice they did not put the model in blackface?
yup you are right, about being sensible especially in regions where swastika is a sign of Nazi oppression.
But me personally don't care about symbols, and find them overrated.
eugene edgerson.
why is it unacceptable? It really isn't. I remember when my Indian friend came to a party and had whited up as an old english beach goer - he won the best dressed price. What the hell is wrong with people?! Everyone should just chill!I think a lot of people are just shocked that people still do this. There have been so many instances of shitstorms caused by it. He told people to calm down before apologising, but yeah, it seems he isn't the brightest.
He looked like a harlem globetrotter. You're not gonna tell me he did a bad job? Sorry how exactly should he be representing black people? By not blacking up? I don't get it.
Well, yes, I have read it in context. He explicitly says intention doesn't matter in response to someone saying that they do. Which is why I responded to him in the first place. Please read our exchange again.
He seems to be trying to backtrack now while accusing me of being dim for not understanding him, but his words are there for all to see.
So, nobody from the classic teams from the 70s-90s?
Certainly, not someone who Griezmann was paying homage to?
Yes, by not blacking up.
Black people are not just the colour of our skin ffs.
They had white players!
Whether it's offensive or not I think we can all agree it's an astoundingly braindead thing to do given the current sociopolitical climate.
So, nobody from the classic teams from the 70s-90s?
Certainly, not someone who Griezmann was paying homage to?
Yes, by not blacking up.
Black people are not just the colour of our skin ffs.
Well where does it stop? hair colour? facial features? The colour of somebody's skin is a pretty big part of how they look. Why don't people just accept that?
Bang on, too much PC in the world today with too much sensitivity.
I probably agree with this - but it's unfortunate. Far too much focus on this kind of thing that has come about through actual racism. Is griezmann racist? Of course not - but he'll be judged by current society - Unfairly as it happens.
I agree with you in the Angloshere, I think that, probably due to a common language with America, we are more advanced with our idea as to what and what constitutes racism and a racist post and what doesn't.
I am guessing, though I may be wrong, that he did not intend to b racist with his outfit.
Great post, good to see people such as your self and Koroux putting a balance to the viewpoint mainly being pushed in this thread.
the things being jumped on these days as racism is worrying, surely it's detrimental to combating genuine racism.
If you seriously are suggesting that someone dressed in a Harlem globetrotters uniform, wouldn’t be recognised as a Harlem globetrotter unless they blacken their skin and wear an afro, then just do me a favour and stop talking to me.