"Blackface" Discussion

vi1lain said:
Do white people have a history of being mocked, dehumanised and humiliated purely because of the colour of their skin?
Have their physical features been compared to animals, and their rights been lessoned to be seen as being less than human?

Have white people been denied roles in movies and media that are centred around being a white person, only to have that character be given to a black person in painted white skin and dramatised features?

Are you seriously this dense and only using the fact that you’re African and you personally don’t find any fault in it, as reason enough for this to be okay?

For what it’s worth, I’m not saying anyone should partake in white face, or any other skin painting exercise - however theres a clear difference here.
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Yes they have. If you don’t know your history, find a library and shop spewing balderdash on the internet. You are not a victim. You are mostly responsible for what life threw at you.

White people were killed & eaten in many places in Africa. Savages cannibalized missionaries. Africans were also mostly responsible for the slavery ish. Rival villages captured youths and exchanged them for ammo, guns, etc. Don’t come here and start preaching heresy.

What happened many centuries ago belong there. Neither of us here are responsible for it. Griezmann isn’t responsible for any of them so you taking offence is the equivalent of a kid throwing his toys out of a pram.

There’s no clear difference. If you can’t paint your face white, the average white guy should also be able to paint to any colour he deems fit. What else are you going to be offended by? A white man wearing deadlocks or Afro-wig? You are pathetic!
 
MadMike said:
Did they even try to discreetly talk to him and explain why it's not OK? Some people are either too sheltered or too thick to understand what's wrong about it. Or, most commonly, both. They can't connect the dots, someone else has to do it for them.
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They said that they spoke to him, he apologised and they then considered the matter closed.
I can’t speak on the manner of which they spoke to him, or even if they understood why it’s harmful to me - but either way I haven’t noticed a particular change in his behaviour.

I’ve been in these situations enough to know that it’s not worth going against the machine and risk alienating yourself, unfortunately.
 
Son Of Sam said:
Continue being a victim. You will be a victim for eternity, your wards and their wards would follow the same.

Griezmann did nothing wrong. If it irks you, go to Madrid and sue instead of being a keyboard warrior seated on a dusty plastic chair in a ghetto. Asswipe!
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Did you think this was a good follow up post? I'm a keyboard warrior in the ghetto now? Am I common too? Shown yourself up for exactly what I suspected. An 'I'm alright Jack' ... You do you and I'll do me.
Jippy said:
We all learnt something today tbf. Penises have caused rape.
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Yup that post is one for the classics. As is the one above...
 
Son Of Sam said:
Yes they have. If you don’t know your history, find a library and shop spewing balderdash on the internet. You are not a victim. You are mostly responsible for what life threw at you.

White people were killed & eaten in many places in Africa. Savages cannibalized missionaries. Africans were also mostly responsible for the slavery ish. Rival villages captured youths and exchanged them for ammo, guns, etc. Don’t come here and start preaching heresy.

What happened many centuries ago belong there. Neither of us here are responsible for it. Griezmann isn’t responsible for any of them so you taking offence is the equivalent of a kid throwing his toys out of a pram.

There’s no clear difference. If you can’t paint your face white, the average white guy should also be able to paint to any colour he deems fit. What else are you going to be offended by? A white man wearing deadlocks or Afro-wig? You are pathetic!
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Wow, we went from 4Chan to The Daily Stormer real quick.
 
Son Of Sam said:
Yes they have. If you don’t know your history, find a library and shop spewing balderdash on the internet. You are not a victim. You are mostly responsible for what life threw at you.

White people were killed & eaten in many places in Africa. Savages cannibalized missionaries. Africans were also mostly responsible for the slavery ish. Rival villages captured youths and exchanged them for ammo, guns, etc. Don’t come here and start preaching heresy.

What happened many centuries ago belong there. Neither of us here are responsible for it. Griezmann isn’t responsible for any of them so you taking offence is the equivalent of a kid throwing his toys out of a pram.

There’s no clear difference. If you can’t paint your face white, the average white guy should also be able to paint to any colour he deems fit. What else are you going to be offended by? A white man wearing deadlocks or Afro-wig? You are pathetic!
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Dig up stupid
 
Blackface is considered racist now? Good grief. Al Jolson will have to find something else to do, I guess. PC gone mad, etc.
 
Son Of Sam said:
Yes they have. If you don’t know your history, find a library and shop spewing balderdash on the internet. You are not a victim. You are mostly responsible for what life threw at you.

White people were killed & eaten in many places in Africa. Savages cannibalized missionaries. Africans were also mostly responsible for the slavery ish. Rival villages captured youths and exchanged them for ammo, guns, etc. Don’t come here and start preaching heresy.

What happened many centuries ago belong there. Neither of us here are responsible for it. Griezmann isn’t responsible for any of them so you taking offence is the equivalent of a kid throwing his toys out of a pram.

There’s no clear difference. If you can’t paint your face white, the average white guy should also be able to paint to any colour he deems fit. What else are you going to be offended by? A white man wearing deadlocks or Afro-wig? You are pathetic!
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Your post has nothing to do with what I asked.
And it’s clear you are the one who doesn’t know your history because the savages killed anyone, not focusing specifically on white people - it was anyone who was a threat to their life.

I’m not sure why you think your limited knowledge on the subject deems you superior enough to call out insults but it’s really not how things are done on this forum.
 
King_Eric said:
Personally, I don't see why you would want to resist the change since the colour of the character is not essential in the whole story/tradition. So if it offends people, just change the tradition to something else. The children, for which the whole thing is meant, won't care whether he has a black, pink or rainbow-coloured face.

But to be honest, the only reason I learnt about the history of 'blackface' is because of this discussion here the past few years. I consider myself quite educated, also regarding other cultures and especially history, but honestly, I had never heard of this issue or the history behind the 'blackface' practice until a few years ago. And I probably wouldn't be far off when saying that at least 90% of the people in Belgium still don't really have a clue about the history. The same might be true for France as well.
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This captures my feelings about Zwarte Piet perfectly too. If you were only ever exposed to Dutch/Belgian culture, you would never really have considered Pieten racist, simply because we don't have the same (recent) history of blacking up to demean black people. Similarly, growing up the N word was a fairly common way of describing a black person, without necessarily any derogatory implications. Fortunately, the influence from the English language have made this a lot less acceptable in the past decade or so. (fortunate because I personally think identifying anyone with a single term relating to the colour of their skin or similar attributes is rather crass and undesirable)

But for some reason people who grew up entrenched in a culture where blackface was deemed unacceptable from the get-go, due to its own history with the matter, seem to find the idea that others might not inherently conform to their norms completely insulting. There was a comment in this thread where someone suggested that even if Griezmann hadn't known about the connotations, he should have been able to come to the conclusion by now, seeing as it's 2017. How?

Again I'm not trying to defend blackface in any way, there's just something about this idea that the whole world should somehow adhere to norms based around one country in particular's cultural history and societal development over any of the hundreds of other countries', and by that I don't even mean western European countries, that bugs me a bit for some reason.
 
I remember about 7 or so years ago in high school a group of 5 girls at my school dressed up as the Jackson Five and did blackface. They won the costume competition for halloween, all the staff loved it. I didn't hear about blackface until a few years later. I guess no one at my school had heard of it then either which is a bit odd.
 
Moving this to the CE since it has little to do with football anymore.
 
Ajaxsuarez said:
This captures my feelings about Zwarte Piet perfectly too. If you were only ever exposed to Dutch/Belgian culture, you would never really have considered Pieten racist, simply because we don't have the same (recent) history of blacking up to demean black people. Similarly, growing up the N word was a fairly common way of describing a black person, without necessarily any derogatory implications. Fortunately, the influence from the English language have made this a lot less acceptable in the past decade or so. (fortunate because I personally think identifying anyone with a single term relating to the colour of their skin or similar attributes is rather crass and undesirable)

But for some reason people who grew up entrenched in a culture where blackface was deemed unacceptable from the get-go, due to its own history with the matter, seem to find the idea that others might not inherently conform to their norms completely insulting. There was a comment in this thread where someone suggested that even if Griezmann hadn't known about the connotations, he should have been able to come to the conclusion by now, seeing as it's 2017. How?

Again I'm not trying to defend blackface in any way, there's just something about this idea that the whole world should somehow adhere to norms based around one country in particular's cultural history and societal development over any of the hundreds of other countries', and by that I don't even mean western European countries, that bugs me a bit for some reason.
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Have to agree with my fellow "Lowlanders" here... Growing up in Belgium (and Holland) we would never think someone who painted his face black, playing Zwarte Piet, was being racist. Might seem very weird to Americans/Brits, I understand.
 
Ajaxsuarez said:
Again I'm not trying to defend blackface in any way, there's just something about this idea that the whole world should somehow adhere to norms based around one country in particular's cultural history and societal development over any of the hundreds of other countries', and by that I don't even mean western European countries, that bugs me a bit for some reason.
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Well, the world is becoming smaller, people have much easier access to all information, and people are moving all around the globe. So different cultural sensitivities are obviously going to be imported as well. And since the issue is obviously offensive to some people, why would you not change your views and traditions?
 
King_Eric said:
Well, the world is becoming smaller, people have much easier access to all information, and people are moving all around the globe. So different cultural sensitivities are obviously going to be imported as well. And since the issue is obviously offensive to some people, why would you not change your views and traditions?
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Fortunately, this is happening already. You'll always have hardliners who aren't willing to change.
 
onemanarmy said:
Have to agree with my fellow "Lowlanders" here... Growing up in Belgium (and Holland) we would never think someone who painted his face black, playing Zwarte Piet, was being racist. Might seem very weird to Americans/Brits, I understand.
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Do you and @Ajaxsuarez think that this might have anything to do with the low amount of black people that have been a part of your culture until recent times?

I can imagine to you it may not be harmful, but I know a number of people of colour particularly in Holland who have always taken issue with it, but as immigrants and largely outnumbered ethnically, they haven’t felt comfortable voicing their opinions publicly.
 
onemanarmy said:
Fortunately, this is happening already. You'll always have hardliners who aren't willing to change.
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Yes indeed. As I said in one of the previous posts, it seems that the group in society in favor of change (or no longer resisting it) is growing steadily, year by year. At least in The Netherlands. In a few years, the group resisting the change will be a minority I guess. I'm wondering though if in Belgium, we'll also still have to go through a very mediatized phase of strong polarization as they have in The Netherlands. I get the feeling that things are changing here as well, with much less fuss or discussion. People seem to care less about it.
 
Home&Away said:
@BlakeUtd

Wow your first paragraph is insane. Political correctness isn't the world going mad; it's a way of society cleansing & recleansing itself to its most purest core.

Never saw it like that!
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wait you know I agree with you right, that was the point of my post unless i'm missing something
 
FFS. 20 odd pages. You’d think Grizemann had also been taking Banjo lessons and posted a video of himself playing Alabama Joe.
 
People like Griezmann should thank their lucky stars they know how to kick a football. Obviously isn't much else being processed up there.
 
I think there's a clear difference between the stereotypical and highly offensive blackface, and dressing up as somebody who is actually black. Obviously I don't feel the emotion regarding it because I'm not black, but you have to disregard emotion in order to have an actual rational discussion about an action and its intentions/meaning. You wouldn't go dressed as the Rock and be white, you would tan up. If you go as a black person then you would dress to suit that costume. The reason that blackface is offensive is not because somebody makes themself look black, it's because they do it in order to be derogatory. That's the difference.
 
onemanarmy said:
Have to agree with my fellow "Lowlanders" here... Growing up in Belgium (and Holland) we would never think someone who painted his face black, playing Zwarte Piet, was being racist. Might seem very weird to Americans/Brits, I understand.
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Ajaxsuarez said:
This captures my feelings about Zwarte Piet perfectly too. If you were only ever exposed to Dutch/Belgian culture, you would never really have considered Pieten racist, simply because we don't have the same (recent) history of blacking up to demean black people. Similarly, growing up the N word was a fairly common way of describing a black person, without necessarily any derogatory implications. Fortunately, the influence from the English language have made this a lot less acceptable in the past decade or so. (fortunate because I personally think identifying anyone with a single term relating to the colour of their skin or similar attributes is rather crass and undesirable)
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Here's the thing, Black Pete is your history of blacking up to demean black people. Everything about the story is rooted in painful colonial history – the fact that this is only being addressed now is a product progress and not some imaginary influx of oversensitivity. In 30 years it's going to be looked on the same way minstrel shows are looked on in the UK and the U.S. and arguments like the one you're making are going to make people recoil.
 
vi1lain said:
Do you and @Ajaxsuarez think that this might have anything to do with the low amount of black people that have been a part of your culture until recent times?

I can imagine to you it may not be harmful, but I know a number of people of colour particularly in Holland who have always taken issue with it, but as immigrants and largely outnumbered ethnically, they haven’t felt comfortable voicing their opinions publicly.
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That is definately a possibility. Both to explain why there had never been a broad nationwide discussion before recently, and also to explain why people never really considered or linked it to racism.

I think in Holland, there have been black people much earlier than in Belgium, but still nothing compared to the US and UK of course. The Belgian colonial period (20th century) came much later than the Dutch, and there was no real slave trade, so we have had very little migration of Congolese before let's say the 1960s or 1970s, in the post-colonial period.
 
vi1lain said:
Do you and @Ajaxsuarez think that this might have anything to do with the low amount of black people that have been a part of your culture until recent times?

I can imagine to you it may not be harmful, but I know a number of people of colour particularly in Holland who have always taken issue with it, but as immigrants and largely outnumbered ethnically, they haven’t felt comfortable voicing their opinions publicly.
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I'm sure that's one of the reasons. It's more of a topic in bigger cities (with more immigrants) then in smaller villages. The image of Black Pete already changed in the sixties, when more immigrants came to Belgium.

But, I actually also know quite some people of colour, although in Belgium, and frankly, they couldn't care less. They grew up with the same image as we did of Zwarte Pieter and really don't see it as a racist image.

King_Eric said:
Yes indeed. As I said in one of the previous posts, it seems that the group in society in favor of change (or no longer resisting it) is growing steadily, year by year. At least in The Netherlands. In a few years, the group resisting the change will be a minority I guess. I'm wondering though if in Belgium, we'll also still have to go through a very mediatized phase of strong polarization as they have in The Netherlands. I get the feeling that things are changing here as well, with much less fuss or discussion. People seem to care less about it.
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Biggest reason is that Belgians are less vocal and have more moderate opinions then Dutch people, I think.
 
MrPooni said:
Here's the thing, Black Pete is your history of blacking up to demean black people. Everything about the story is rooted in painful colonial history – the fact that this is only being addressed now is a product progress and not some imaginary influx of oversensitivity. In 30 years it's going to be looked on the same way minstrel shows are looked on in the UK and the U.S. and arguments like the one you're making are going to make people recoil.
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I don't think anyone disagrees with this (well, here at least). The issue is that, at least in the past decennia, noone seemed to realise this.

Edit: To nuance this, the story itself is not rooted in colonial history, since it predates it by centuries. It's the depiction of the helper that is obviously influenced by the colonial period. In Germany, where Saint Nicolas always had a 'helper', it's a white person. In Holland, the helper was only added in the 19th century.
 
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onemanarmy said:
Have to agree with my fellow "Lowlanders" here... Growing up in Belgium (and Holland) we would never think someone who painted his face black, playing Zwarte Piet, was being racist. Might seem very weird to Americans/Brits, I understand.
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I spent a fair amount of time at my grandparents in Germany as a kid. They had this card game called Schwarzer Peter, a favourite of mine at the time. I think the story was of a kid working as a chimney sweeper and who's face was covered in black soot. Or at least that's how my auntie described it to me at the time.

Is that related to Zwarte Piet of the Dutch stories?
 
King_Eric said:
That is definately a possibility. Both to explain why there had never been a broad nationwide discussion before recently, and also to explain why people never really considered or linked it to racism.

I think in Holland, there have been black people much earlier than in Belgium, but still nothing compared to the US and UK of course. The Belgian colonial period (20th century) came much later than the Dutch, and there was no real slave trade, so we have had very little migration of Congolese before let's say the 1960s or 1970s, in the post-colonial period.
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onemanarmy said:
I'm sure that's one of the reasons. It's more of a topic in bigger cities (with more immigrants) then in smaller villages. The image of Black Pete already changed in the sixties, when more immigrants came to Belgium.

But, I actually also know quite some people of colour, although in Belgium, and frankly, they couldn't care less. They grew up with the same image as we did of Zwarte Pieter and really don't see it as a racist image.
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Interesting point to note.
I guess it’s important to have the conversation now even if it is late, than to pretend there’s nothing strange going on at all.

The first time I saw Zwarte Pieter and pictures of the festival I immediately was very confused, even at the age of 10/11 I remember it vividly because there had been a few stories about golliwogs in the UK.

But I guess if it’s entrenched in your culture, it’s harder for you to know better.
 
Keep it civil - otherwise the infractions will come.
 
MadMike said:
I spent a fair amount of time at my grandparents in Germany as a kid. They had this card game called Schwarzer Peter, a favourite of mine at the time. I think the story was of a kid working as a chimney sweeper and who's face was covered in black soot. Or at least that's how my auntie at the time described it to me.

Is that related to Zwarte Piet of the Dutch stories?
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That card game is a German version of the British 'Old Maid' card game. There obviously is a connection to this German version and the Black Pete thing, given the name the Germans have given to it. And looking at the card shown here on the Wiki page, it doesn't just seem like a kid with soot sweeps though...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzer_Peter

So there is obviously a connection, both given the name, and given the explenation given by adults to children about the black colour of the figure (the chimney thing).

In fact, the Saint-Nicolas tradition exists in Germany as well, but has different versions. The most popular has 'Knecht Ruprecht', a white figure, in the role of Black Pete. And this version is much old than the Dutch version.
 
Son Of Sam said:
White people were killed & eaten in many places in Africa. Savages cannibalized missionaries. Africans were also mostly responsible for the slavery ish.
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It's hard for a non-academic like me to understand technical terms like 'ish'.
 
King_Eric said:
Well, the world is becoming smaller, people have much easier access to all information, and people are moving all around the globe. So different cultural sensitivities are obviously going to be imported as well. And since the issue is obviously offensive to some people, why would you not change your views and traditions?
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Exactly. And I agree with you that our tradition should change. But I can also recognise the fact that this is due to the American influence on our world culture. Now imagine Americans having to change parts of their tradition or the words they use due to adhere to norms developed in China as a result of something in their recent cultural history, or the idea that we would change our traditions or behaviour to adhere to some Chinese norms? It's almost comical to imagine, yet with the US it's somehow "stupid" and "worrying" if we don't adhere to all of theirs.

vi1lain said:
Do you and @Ajaxsuarez think that this might have anything to do with the low amount of black people that have been a part of your culture until recent times?

I can imagine to you it may not be harmful, but I know a number of people of colour particularly in Holland who have always taken issue with it, but as immigrants and largely outnumbered ethnically, they haven’t felt comfortable voicing their opinions publicly.
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I grew up in Amsterdam. Both my parents aren't from here though. (though white/Jewish).

24% of the population of Amsterdam are from Suriname, and are extremely well integrated in society as a whole. 26% are Moroccan. 49% are "autochtoon" ("from here")

MrPooni said:
Here's the thing, Black Pete is your history of blacking up to demean black people. Everything about the story is rooted in painful colonial history – the fact that this is only being addressed now is a product progress and not some imaginary influx of oversensitivity. In 30 years it's going to be looked on the same way minstrel shows are looked on in the UK and the U.S. and arguments like the one you're making are going to make people recoil.
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I doubt you know much about the history of Zwarte Piet in Holland. I agree that it's not a healthy tradition anymore, and also an unhealthy portrayal of black people.
 
King_Eric said:
That card game is the German version of the British 'Old Maid'. There obviously is a connection to the Black Pete thing, given the name the Germans have given to it. And looking at the cards, it doesn't just seem like a kid with soot sweeps though...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzer_Peter

So there is obviously a connection, both given the name, and given the explenation given by adults to children about the black colour of the figure (the chimney thing).

In fact, the Saint-Nicolas tradition exists in Germany as well, but has different versions. The most popular has 'Knecht Ruprecht', a white figure, in the role of Black Pete. And this version is much old than the Dutch version.
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I think I had a very watered down version of that game... :nervous:

150


The card of Peter itself had him in blackface, if I recall correctly though.
 
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