You can find it humorous as much as you want, the pitchforks know what they are doing, by their own reasons or even if manipulated, because they have it in their head in a way or another. Griezmann had nothing in their head (pun intended) regarding that being racist. And he apologized and now he knows
"Blackface" Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You can find it humorous as much as you want, the pitchforks know what they are doing, by their own reasons or even if manipulated, because they have it in their head in a way or another. Griezmann had nothing in their head (pun intended) regarding that being racist. And he apologized and now he knows
Of all the defences in this thread, I think the "He's got black mates, so he can't be racist" one is probably one of the most ridiculous.
Now, I personally doubt Griezmann's a racist, and it's a lot more likely he was just ignorant of the context surrounding the whole thing...somehow. But at the same time, it's absolutely possible for someone with black mates to be racist. They might not be openly racist in the sense where they hold a genuine dislike of people from other races...but it's still possible for them to hold certain innate biases and prejudices, even if they're rather subtle and far from obvious.
And, again, I doubt Griezmann's actually a racist...just someone who's done something incredibly stupid. But I still think it's a poor defence.
Now, I personally doubt Griezmann's a racist, and it's a lot more likely he was just ignorant of the context surrounding the whole thing...somehow. But at the same time, it's absolutely possible for someone with black mates to be racist. They might not be openly racist in the sense where they hold a genuine dislike of people from other races...but it's still possible for them to hold certain innate biases and prejudices, even if they're rather subtle and far from obvious.
And, again, I doubt Griezmann's actually a racist...just someone who's done something incredibly stupid. But I still think it's a poor defence.
I'd like to think those people would hold their hands up, say fair enough, then move on. Like I would.
Is that hard for you to picture?
True, but not surprising unfortunately.
You see it all the time with these kind of issues. You saw it with the Suarez case, with the Eniola Aluko case, muslim/terrorism-related discussions, in my country with the Black Pete discussion, even with the #Metoo discussion. Many people seem to be unable to acknowledge that racism, sexism, etc. are still very much real issues in our society and are quick to bring out the 'political correctness' argument when it's actually just about common decency and taking the feelings of 'minorities' into account.
In belgium is the same as netherlands were santa's helpers are black and brings bad kids to Madrid? outrageous!! racist at blacks and spaniards! to the fork!!
Little did Griezmann know when he opened up Pandora's chocolate box...
We can expand the discussion to the corsica flag or many other european racist topics
But would their heads have been ripped off before they got the chance... like what happened here and in other cases?
Yeah, it's exactly the same as in The Netherlands.
Sinterklaas and zwarte piet come from Spain on a boat to put the bad children in a bag and take them away, back to Spain
It takes seconds to say sorry, and no time at all to stfu.... Where are you going with this?
Yeah, it's exactly the same as in The Netherlands.
Sinterklaas and zwarte piet come from Spain on a boat to put the bad children in a bag and take them away, back to Spain
And I would never know that if my sister's ex-boyfriend would not be dutch. Knowledge
It is fecking funny the random european traditions. In catalonia in Christmas we have the Shitting log and nobody knows exactly where it comes from
Empathy must be given to the racists, for they do not know what they do, or something.
Clearly racist but it was very funny in a non PC way. What the feck was he thinking
Mere seconds after sending it anxiousness rang on my doorbell. It's just a metaphor.
A person can do a racist act without knowing and without being racist like Griezmann now.
So no, a racist never has to be given empathy but a nonracist doing an unknowingly racist act yes, definitely
Mere seconds after sending it anxiousness rang on my doorbell. It's just a metaphor.
pandora chocolate box? since when it was a chocolate box?
I agree with that, only when someone is unaware of what they’re doing to be racist.
However, it’s very few instances where someone can feign ignorance, stupidity or lack of understanding.
pandora chocolate box? since when it was a chocolate box?
She had many boxes in her house, all of them got cursed though. ;x
Well, In my case, if I would be famous and have followers I would ask myself if it is the right thing to do, everything involving racial topics has to be taken slowly, but again, not everybody has the same level brightness (considering myself pretty normal) so we have to judge people as well according to that
I think most of the people agree pretty much with everything. Why we still discussing?
This thread has been really, really disappointing. Some of the views expressed are ones I thought had been largely left behind but are clearly still very prevalent among normally sensible people.
As for the claim (made several times in this thread) that people in European countries shouldn't have to conform to UK or US ideals because racism is a US or UK problem and not an issue in their countries - it's complete and utter bullshit.
I've lived in Belgium and the Netherlands and spent a lot of time in Spain. All 3 countries have very real issues with racism and I would argue, do far less to counter the issue than the US or UK.
In Brussels I worked with people (not for long) who would openly refuse to deal with black people professionally for no other reason than the colour of their skin. I cannot imagine working in the US or UK with someone who would openly admit that in a professional environment without consequence.
In Spain there are no equality or non-discrimination laws to counter racism. There are no independent mechanism and no unified policy in place to combat it. Even with the many well documented cases we have seen in football, there is no real recourse to be taken against perpetrators.
Are people honestly arguing that because racism is more tolerated, or less frowned upon in Spain, Belgium or Netherlands, people from countries like the US or UK which largely condemn it shouldn't be allowed to point at incidents in those other countries and say "that's wrong"?
As for the claim (made several times in this thread) that people in European countries shouldn't have to conform to UK or US ideals because racism is a US or UK problem and not an issue in their countries - it's complete and utter bullshit.
I've lived in Belgium and the Netherlands and spent a lot of time in Spain. All 3 countries have very real issues with racism and I would argue, do far less to counter the issue than the US or UK.
In Brussels I worked with people (not for long) who would openly refuse to deal with black people professionally for no other reason than the colour of their skin. I cannot imagine working in the US or UK with someone who would openly admit that in a professional environment without consequence.
In Spain there are no equality or non-discrimination laws to counter racism. There are no independent mechanism and no unified policy in place to combat it. Even with the many well documented cases we have seen in football, there is no real recourse to be taken against perpetrators.
Are people honestly arguing that because racism is more tolerated, or less frowned upon in Spain, Belgium or Netherlands, people from countries like the US or UK which largely condemn it shouldn't be allowed to point at incidents in those other countries and say "that's wrong"?
Shitting log?!?
You know, spaniards don't have an healthy diet.
We will let you pass this as well Antoine
You only say so because you want to see him in a Barca shirt. Double s..
I will speak only about Spain because is what I know
Nobody said in any case that in this countries racism is less than UK or US. Actually I can't quantify. Most likely in US are more aware because it had been a big issue for a long time and society evolved way more than in Spain. And that is because in Spain we had a pretty homogeneous ethnic group because they brought slaves to US and Spain sent slaves (and enslaved locally shortly later) to the colonies, but in the peninsule was pretty rare to have other ethnicities, mainly because we were in a dictatorship and poor and it was us that immigrate to europe like in Germany. It was very slightly in the 80's and specially in the 90's were we received immigration in enough quantities to be considered and "issue" (people against/favour) than that odd black guy or that odd south american or that odd Moroccan.
It was kind of racism for example in Catalonia towards people in Andalucia and other internal issues
The positive:
Racism was not developed much in Spain because there was no conflict till barely 20 years ago. By that time, spanish society was more advance ideologically than US, White supremacy as understood in northern Europe is not an issue because we are not precisely blonde so we are less inclined of finding difference with north africans and southamericans.
The negative:
As you said, we do not have as much resorts as in US to fight the racism because we are just catching up in this immigration phenomenon and as well, some structures still comes from the fascism regime that are not really inclined to have anyone that is not spanish (speaks spanish, likes bullfighting and its paella, hyperboling of course).
So there is racism, like anywhere in the world, but my perception is that is not as intense as in other places as we have a quite laidback culture of live and let live in terms of race and sexual orientation (not in football and internal cultural viewings). But we still have a pretty long way to go to apply the corrected measures that US has
Is a log that shits presents when the kids beats the feck out of it with sticks (no worries, the log is not black so is not racism)
Explanation of our scatological culture in catalonia by Stephen Fry
It’s quite odd, as we actually had a discussion thread about Black Pete on here 4 years ago, and a poster who was either Dutch or lived there claimed it was a very prominent talking point at the time, and that the likes of Kluivert and Davids had come out against it, and it’d even been used as an insult to black players...
Anyway since this is a football forum, this is what happened when Leroy Fer posted a selfie after the last international break this year, when the Black Pete discussion was very prominent:
Translated comments: ,,Almost 5 december, then they are popping up everywhere". ,,Nine Black Petes". ,,Freed themselves from the 'chains' and then this is what you get''. Anyway, you get the idea.
.
So the idea they’re just blissfully and innocently ignorant of its potential offence seems wilfully disingenuous.
You only say so because you want to see him in a Barca shirt. Double s..
Never liked him. I mean, has a Manchester United level used to lukkaku's level but for Barcelona....please
Can't believe this non issue is already 26 pages long. My best friend is black and when we saw the images we laughed at it together and drank another pint
close down the thread, broccolis black friend is cool with it
Me too.I love that episode.
You can't do/say that in Belgium without consequences, absolutely not.
The difference with the UK and US is that racism is a much more recent phenomenon in my country. While the US went to racial changes in the fifties, my parents and grand parents just didn't come across coloured people. It's the older generation that was born in the 50's and 60's that is the biggest issue I think. I'm certainly not denying there is a problem, most countries have.
Never seen this before. It's awful. However that is not the point I've been making. This is using the Black Pete in a racist context, which wasn't the case when growing up.
It was bad here in the UK too. We had a show called the Black and White Minstrel Show that was pretty bad.
I didn’t realise all black people were the same as your best friend.
It is in the UK as well Google a show called Black & White Minstrel Show.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/black-white-minstrel-show-most-2077085
racist!