"Blackface" Discussion

You omit words when you're singing? :confused: Really? Who does that? Abhorrent practice. I'd rather not sing at all if the content is risqué and I'm in a public space.
It's quite easy, when you have children and you happen to like hip hop, r&b, dancehall etc... It just becomes natural.

It's actually quite enlightening. It does show how ignorant some people can be.

On a side note - when you were asked what cultures find blackface acceptable. You said "I don't know" before blaming it on Asians. Now you have just said it doesn't matter in your part of the world.
I'm still waiting for the minority representation from Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands etc to post and back up what these guys are claiming, there must be a redcafe poster among them, surely?

Maybe they can get their minority friends to post...

I don't know why but Clitoraid sounds to me like a refreshing drink, like Gatorade. :lol: :nervous:
I bet it does :lol:

Yeah, I don't really understand that, just sing the lyrics.
Yea that's right, sing profanity etc around my kids. Good idea that :rolleyes:. Plus I don't like to refer to my kin as 'nigga' either....
 
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You omit words when you're singing? :confused: Really? Who does that? Abhorrent practice. I'd rather not sing at all if the content is risqué and I'm in a public space.

Yeah, I don't really understand that, just sing the lyrics.
 
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these racist asian bitches spreading awareness about female circumcision

That's just ridiculous and quite pointless.:lol:
 
Tell you what, I can see your itching for an argument. You stick to being offended and I won’t. Let’s leave it at that.

Hey. Look. Strawman. Argument. Classic. Typical reply, really. You'll do nuttin'. You'll reply with nuttin' that I ain't already seen before.

At least if you're going to run, make sure you have something well-thought out posted. You came in with an asinine post, one that always pops up when these issues arise. I'm not offended myself. However I understand the history behind these things. And, guess what, if you bothered reading what was said, you might actually understand it a bit better. These are the only two posts you need if you want to dismiss the history of blackface:

Fwiw, I'm brown, but you've been sniffing too much if you think blackface is remotely funny or a good idea for a "costume". Also, my issue with blackface is that some people genuinely think that in order to be like me, all they need is shoe polish/make up... and that's that. That is extremely offensive to many people because you don't know shit about their struggle, it's much deeper than that. That's why I'm @ your neck. Once you form a coherent argument, I might tone it down... otherwise, please, stop perpetuating nonsense.
Precisely, there’s something seriously sinister in only seeing people of colour by the colour of their skin, and not their individual human traits.
This idea that a costume would be more ‘realistic’ if you change your skin colour, is almost an admission that being a person isn’t enough. You have to emphasise their skin colour.
 
Typical reply, really. You'll do nuttin'. You'll reply with nuttin' that I ain't already seen before.

At least if you're going to run, make sure you have something well-thought out posted. You came in with an asinine post, one that always pops up when these issues arise. I'm not offended myself. However I understand the history behind these things. And, guess what, if you bothered reading what was said, you might actually understand it a bit better. These are the only two posts you need if you want to dismiss the history of blackface:
someone needs a chill pill.
 
It seems that the biggest issue with this, is calling it racist. It simply isn't. Racism has a clearly defined meaning and emulating somebody to the T for the purposes of simply looking like the person you are emulating does not fit any of the criteria of racism and no amount of mental gymnastics that those who are offended can do in order to insinuate that the person intended something that they did not, can change that. It may offend you, and fair enough - you can make a great case for that. It may be insensitive, and fair enough - you can make an argument for that too but none of those things are racism. That doesn't mean it's suddenly okay, but it's important to approach the issue for what it actually is, and not for what you think it is or what you're trying to tell somebody else they mean or have in their head when you have no way of knowing that.
/Thread
 
Obviously the answer is no. The point of that post was to highlight the absurdity of "blacking up as culture devoid of racism" posts.

Well, I think we agree on this then (hopefully)

I don’t debate hypothetical situations, and I don’t believe there is such culture.

If there is I’d like to understand the reasons behind it.
I know there are some cultures in the south Asian Pacific that partake in some questionable cultures, but they were forced upon them during colonialism

Well, it's unrealistic for any one person to know all cultures and historical significance of these customs. As for your other sentence, are you implying questionable cultures in remote areas are forced by colonialism? Wouldn't that be controversial as well?
 
What he did was black up.

Blacking up has a history steeped in racism.

What’s the difference here?
Because he was unaware?
That only means that he himself was ignorant and not racist - but the act itself is just that.
The difference is that he didn't intend to caricaturize or ridicule black culture at all by doing it unlike in those minstrel shows. We get that it offends some people and understandably so for the older generation when they get reminded of those horrible shows back in the day. But surely the younger generation should be able to see that this is completely different? There's zero malicious intent here. Would be a completely different case if it was some racist cnut mocking black people but this isn't the case here at all.

I'm not in any way saying racism isn't prevalent because sadly enough it still is. But imo branding things like this one as racism is going to be counter productive in the long run. It's slowly taking away the power of the word.
 
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The negative social effects of my nation's colonial and racist practices aren't invisible at all. I see it everyday. My grandfather came from Angola and was there during the colonial war.

But why does that make blackface an inherently racist act? Why would me going as LeBron James for a carnaval party without stereotyping or mocking black people be a racist act at all?

This has already been explain ad nauseam by multiple people. In short, you wearing blackface is inherently mocking minorities.

It is reducing the tremendous wealth and diversity of thousands of culture's histories and pain of millions of individual experiences into a genetically irrelevant set of five colors that are somehow supposed to represent their "race" : white, black, brown, yellow and red. That is inherently offensive in some form I don't care what your local culture says on it.

I think most people actually do pay attention to the historic context of blackfacing since almost everybody seems to silencely agree that blackfacing in the US (and UK?) is not socially acceptable. People here point out that different cultures exist and the world doesn't just consist of the US.

The second someone logs into the internet and goes on Instagram or football forums, etc they are no longer in their local culture. They have exited their local culture and entered world culture.

Like it or not the internet is global. The second you participate with people online you have a greater responsibility than simply seeing things through the narrow lens of your local.

This whole "its not offensive in my village" is irrelevant because the internet is not your village. If one wants to dress in blackface to be LeBron James at carnival and no one in your local community gets offended then good for you.

But if you post that picture online then you forfeit your "its only inoffensive local culture" defense because you are no longer in your local culture. If you choose to participate in a wider community outside your local one, then you have to respect the thousands of other local communities.
 
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these racist asian bitches spreading awareness about female circumcision

They might not be racist but that looks pretty fecking racist to me, good intentions or not.
 
It seems that the biggest issue with this, is calling it racist. It simply isn't. Racism has a clearly defined meaning and emulating somebody to the T for the purposes of simply looking like the person you are emulating does not fit any of the criteria of racism and no amount of mental gymnastics that those who are offended can do in order to insinuate that the person intended something that they did not, can change that. It may offend you, and fair enough - you can make a great case for that. It may be insensitive, and fair enough - you can make an argument for that too but none of those things are racism. That doesn't mean it's suddenly okay, but it's important to approach the issue for what it actually is, and not for what you think it is or what you're trying to tell somebody else they mean or have in their head when you have no way of knowing that.

Stop pussyfooting around the issue with pseudo intellectual babble. Call it for what it is. People make racist gestures and remarks unknowingly all the time. But it speaks volume of their character, if they realise their mistake and acknowledge it. Instead of doubling down and feigning ignorance.
 
Stop pussyfooting around the issue with pseudo intellectual babble. Call it for what it is. People make racist gestures and remarks unknowingly all the time. But it speaks volume of their character, if they realise their mistake and acknowledge it. Instead of doubling down and feigning ignorance.

I wasn't pussyfooting around anything. It's more telling of your character that instead of trying to engage in the discussion, to take issue with specific parts of the post or to show why your thought process is correct and mine is incorrect, that you instead go for weak attempts at insults regarding character and try to win me over to your side with some bullshit about me being better off in your eyes if I do. If you want a discussion, have a discussion with me otherwise bore off.
 
Come on..that blackface of them is no racism. And it's not motivated by racism.

Who said that it was racist? You told me that they weren't racist, how am I supposed to know that?
 
Who determines which culture has to give in, since the internet is global? The internet is not your village either. But that doesn't seem to matter to you at all.
The hypocriticism regarding this topic is a neverending story, I guess.

There is no hypocrisy.

Maybe start with the people themselves. People should have a right to represent their own identity without it getting distorted by other people.

When they tell you its offensive, you should listen not double down on this "b-b-but in my local its not offensive".

Its really a simple, simple concept.

Think of of it this way. Let's say your real name is "Fjed". So I meet you and you introduce yourself as "Fjed". But I refuse to call you Fjed. I call you Frank, Furd and Freakers Jeeders. You say you don't like my nicknames, your name is Fjed please call you Fjed. Fair enough I didn't know right? But now, I say "But in my community no one likes being called Fjed so I'm going to call you Flunky Four Fingers because that's a cool name in my community" and I completely disregard how you want to be called.
 
People in this thread said that every act of blackfacing is always racist.
I told you they weren't racist because it's obvious. Neither is their blackface.

How is that obvious that they are or aren't racist? How do you determine that one?

Also I'm not the one who said that all act of blackfacing are racist, I already said that if it isn't done as a joke, an insult or caricatural then in my opinion it's not racist.
 
Blackface can definitely be offensive and even racist given the context. In today's day and age, anyone who claims not to know that it doesn't fit a lot of social norms and generally isn't done is having a laugh. I think most black people actually couldn't give a feck but society has a constant need to be offended by something.
 
There is no hypocrisy? You just said that you don't care about my village and that the internet is a global place, yet you force your village's believe on me :lol: that's text book double standard and hypocrisy! My village doesn't matter as long as it doesn't fit yours, but if your's doesn't fit mine, yours still matters. Okay..

No no, it's like you're calling yourself fjed. But not to make fun of me, if you do so, you're an idiot, but because you're a fan. And I don't care whether you call yourself fjed or not.
This is not about defining who someone else has to be from the blackfacing person's point of view. It's completely different to your example what the feck.

Think about what you are actually arguing for in this thread and in this context.

You are insisting that you should have the right to costume in blackface and post pictures of it on the internet completely irrespective of who it might offend due to numerous historical factors simply on the basis of the "in my local community this is not offensive".

Seriously think about it a minute. It is analogous to my example because you, an outsider, are insisting on continuing your representation of other cultures and communities irrespective of the fact people are telling you its offensive.
 
I wasn't pussyfooting around anything. It's more telling of your character that instead of trying to engage in the discussion, to take issue with specific parts of the post or to show why your thought process is correct and mine is incorrect, that you instead go for weak attempts at insults regarding character and try to win me over to your side with some bullshit about me being better off in your eyes if I do. If you want a discussion, have a discussion with me otherwise bore off.

Ofcourse you are pussyfooting around when you ignore the historic context of blackface. Something which has been repeated several times in this thread and why the act is considered racist. You are choosing to ignore it and when you make the "racism by definition is..." statement. And why exactly is it the right thing to engage in discussion? when time and again it has been proven to be a racist gesture?
 
Blackface can definitely be offensive and even racist given the context. In today's day and age, anyone who claims not to know that it doesn't fit a lot of social norms and generally isn't done is having a laugh. I think most black people actually couldn't give a feck but society has a constant need to be offended by something.

Most of us aren't offended. Personally my reaction is more:" WTF is that supposed to be?"
 
What he did was black up.

Blacking up has a history steeped in racism.

What’s the difference here?
Because he was unaware?
That only means that he himself was ignorant and not racist - but the act itself is just that.

Blacking up is steeped in racism because of the fact that it was intended to mock black people, present them as amusing, and to generally portray stereotypes that weren't true - not because they simply painted their face black. An act is not inherently anything until its motivations are judged. I absolutely will not try to argue with you about the history of blackface, because it's self evident. But that's not what happened here.

If we step away from race, and we shelve that for the moment and apply the same principle to something else, i.e sexism. Suppose I said to you:

'is passing over a female in a job interview, in favour of a male, sexist?'

If you replied yes to me, I would ask why your first instinct wasn't to question why the person did that and to instead rush to labelling it, perhaps the person was more qualified, perhaps they passed over them soley because they were a woman. One of those is sexist, and one is not. If you replied to me 'no, because it would depend on why he did that' I would then ask you why you applied that logic to this example but not to the one of race. Unless you can educate me on the difference between those examples that then means you no longer have to properly analyse a situation before deciding it meets the definition of something, I don't see how that is any different in that before you can term something racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic etc etc, you need to take apart the situation and judge the situation. 'Blacking up' to mock black people or present bullshit stereotypes, make them out to be amusing etc is of course immediately racist and there's a long history of that. Doing so because you truly believe that it enhances your costume whether you agree that it actually does or not is not racist. It's misguided, it's inappropriate, it's offensive to some people, it's ignorant and it reflects poor decision making. It's the wrong thing to do, and he should apologise for the offense he caused. It is all of those things but it is not racist. You cannot just term something as something because it bears semblence to something else. It isn't rational.

Somebody asked me earlier why I was seemingly arguing this over nothing, but I don't have the time to go back over the pages to quote it, but if it appears I'm doing that then I apologise. I think racism is a very, very serious thing. It needs to be stamped out, and it needs to be tackled head on. My ex girlfriend is black and on many, many occasions I had to console her after she suffered racism in her professional career and her personal life and though I have never experienced it, and cannot truly understand what it actually feels like I do know how it made her feel, and how bad it made me feel that she had to go through this and that there wasn't more I could do to change what she experienced. Equality is the key issue of this generation whether it's gender equality, racial equality, LGBT rights etc and I take it very seriously and I genuinely believe, and see anecdotally on this forum that every time somebody rushes to term something as something whether it's race simply because it involves skin colour, homophobic because it simply involves LGBT, or sexist because it simply involves something to do with gender that the discussion immediately shifts from the issue at hand, to one side vs the other clashing and throwing insults at each other, telling each other they're awful people, defending their choice of words, and generally they become more concerned with simply winning an argument than actually dealing with the issue at hand. If you throw such a charged word at someone they will of course defend it, because it's not something that should be thrown around lightly. It also devalues the impact of the word, and desensitises people to it. It's possible to simply be an asshole and not racist when it comes to something like this. This is not going to change anything for the future, it's just going to breed contempt between groups of people who end up in a situation where they can't be bothered to speak to each other because it just makes them all angry. I would much prefer sides to give and take, one side to say 'this is why this offends me' and the other side to say 'I understand that and I'm sorry, I can understand why your mind jumped to shit that's happened before and I should have known better and considered that, it was never my intention' and for both sides to find common ground rather than what we have now which is two opposing sides more interested in showing the other person why they're a piece of shit than actually improving anythng for anybody.

On a side note, I would also much prefer (and I obviously can't speak for black people regarding this but anecdotally my ex echoed this opinion so I'm not alone) that my children grow up in a world where they can present themself as whatever they want and not even give it a second thought. We had this recently with a white kid dressing up as Pocahontas for some party she went to and people blew up about it. Kids at that age can barely understand the concept of racism, they just want to emulate their heroes and you could make an argument about it being a compliment that they actively wish to portray themselves as something that previously nobody would want to, completely free from malice because to them it simply isn't an issue or worth thinking about, than continue living in a world where we help continue to keep the issue alive by identifying it and making out that it's bad. That world is the one where colour won't matter.
 
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you were so easy to tell that someone is racist, can't it work the other way around too?
Sorry if I confused you regarding this specific topic, I lost track of all the names and find it very nice of you that not every blackfacing is racist by itself!

I called someone racist? I didn't call Griezmann racist, nor did I called anyone in the thread racist, I did say that making fun of someone because of his skin's color was racist though.
 
Ofcourse you are pussyfooting around when you ignore the historic context of blackface. Something which has been repeated several times in this thread and why the act is considered racist. You are choosing to ignore it and when you make the "racism by definition is..." statement. And why exactly is it the right thing to engage in discussion? when time and again it has been proven to be a racist gesture?

Nobody has ignored the historic context of black face, if you even bothered to read my posts you'd have seen that so I can only assume that you didn't read any of them and just jumped on the wagon with your quote.
 
Yea, as I said, I'm sorry, I thought you were one of those who believe that every blackface would be racism per se.

But bear in mind that the ad campaign is still offensive, that's a ridiculous depiction.
 
as long as it's not racist, I'm fine. Since I blackfaced too when I was 6 and stuff. And don't want to be viewed as racist. I hate that shit.

To be fair, I wouldn't rule it out. You will have to make sure that the doubts vanish.;)
 
The whole us vs. them, outsider vs. insider, it cements racism, in fact, I'm pretty sure that many of such views are racist as well. Telling you again, it's not comparable, since you're the one defining an outsider by calling him something else, while the person who blackfaces himself is defining himself.
Just get it in your head: I don't define us vs them and black vs white, I won't live by those standards. It's the root of this conflict.

I'll rephrase one last time for posterity.

Numerous communities of black people and other minorities around the world have made it clear that the whole idea of blackface is offensive at the very least and racist at the worst. For both historical and simple logical reasons it is offensive.

If someone chooses to continue to costume in blackface and post pictures online after being made aware by numerous communities around the world that it is offensive, then they are the ones in the wrong.

Using the "but in my local its not offensive" is not a valid excuse. You are in the world and there already is a consensus in the world on this issue.

If someone intentionally does something after they know it is offensive to some then they are the arsehole not the people pointing out its offensive and they should not have done it because they have been made aware.
 
Nobody has ignored the historic context of black face, if you even bothered to read my posts you'd have seen that so I can only assume that you didn't read any of them and just jumped on the wagon with your quote.

If you had taken the historic context you wouldn't have so much trouble calling the gesture for what it is. Instead, you choose to circumvent the issue by calling it insensitive, offensive and everything else under the sun.
 
If you had taken the historic context you wouldn't have so much trouble calling the gesture for what it is. Instead, you choose to circumvent the issue by calling it insensitive, offensive and everything else under the sun.

You're refusing to accept that what is legitimately racist i.e historical use of black face, is not what happened here. There's not much more I can say to you if you won't accept that. If you believe that correlation implies causation then that's up to you but there's literally a saying that goes 'correlation does not imply causation' and it means that just because something looks like something, doesn't mean it is.
 
You're refusing to accept that what is legitimately racist i.e historical use of black face, is not what happened here. There's not much more I can say to you if you won't accept that. If you believe that correlation implies causation then that's your issue.

See, there you go again. If the act has been historically proven to be racist, what else is there to prove? sure he didn't mean it and has loads of black friends. That doesn't change the fact that it was a racist gesture. All this bollocks about "legitimately racist" is just mental gymnastics and nothing more.
 
Until yesterday I didn't even know it was offensive anywhere else so I don't know. Especially because I can't know what all black people in Portugal think.

My point is that the historical context isn't there. Unless I was mocking black people they wouldn't have any reason to be upset because that blackface cultural background isn't there, just like if a black guy dressed as Cristiano Ronaldo with some white paint there wouldn't be any reason for me to be upset by it.
You're not a minority.
 
See, there you go again. If the act has been historically proven to be racist, what else is there to prove? sure he didn't mean it and has loads of black friends. That doesn't change the fact that it was a racist gesture. All this bollocks about "legitimately racist" is just mental gymnastics and nothing more.

No, its a valid philosophical argument. You and others just want to be absolute about your interpretation.
 
Who gives a feck? It's history, it's there for us to learn from it. Was Europe the only continent involved in the slave trade? Africans were selling themselves to others, such were the times. Should every generation after that suffer because of their ancestors? You think Africans in Africa didn't kill and enslave each other? Do you have any idea what the Arabs did to their African slaves?

Why should our generation care about what our ancestors did years ago when everyone else did the same shit, including Africans
'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'