Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

Well Paul, in reference to your first point I do feel somewhat free to make a judgement on an individual poster and the trend I see on the Caf.

I feel well positioned to make the judgement, it’s only my opinion but I’m actually talking to the person and judging his own words, in that sense I think it’s absolutely fair game.

I think projecting judgements and opinion onto almost 17.5 million people is not quite the same though, which is my entire point. The broadbrush and frankly smugly superior tone taken by that poster and other posters is in my opinion distasteful and simplistic to the point of ignorance, which is ironic given the intellectual high ground they believe they occupy.

As for the rest of your post I probably couldn’t agree more, I was vehemently opposed to Brexit as I was to the Scottish referendum. As someone from NI I’m very proud to be linked to the UK and Europe, I considered being European as much a part of my identity as British or Irish, it was bitterly disappointing to see that at odds with 17.5 million people. That’s not even getting started on what I felt was very strong, continual, evidence that we would be financially and institutionally worse off.

I’ll happily lay blame at the Governments feet, the ref was a vanity project of a disasterous PM, left to be managed by possibly an even worse one.

What I have realised is that blaming voters for having a different opinion borne out of a completely different outlook and experience than my own is totally unfair, going farther to patronise and belittle 17.5 million people is something else entirely and hardly helpful in bridging the divide.

I have been called all sorts of names by brexiters and some remainers , the brexiters have mainly disappeared, they were always in a minority on here , if I remember correctly a poll at the time of the referendum around 72% of posters voted remain on here. But I have never blocked or reported anyone on here, although I suspect some posters think I did.

It is an emotional subject and some people see their futures being changed by people who on the whole did not consider what the outcome could be, I doubt if anyone knows everything about the EU but clearly some know a lot more than others.

At this moment the government are spinning a load of blatant lies again, a slightly different set from pre-referendum. There are still many people who believe these because they want to believe them. This is really sad imo. Things that cannot possibly happen is not a matter of opinion and people are frustrated that despite this people still believe that they can be achieved.

Just the border issue in Ireland, for one amongst many, was a major obstacle to Brexit both before the referendum and still is. There are only two solutions and neither is going to suit one side nor the other.

 

[Kentonio]

Actually naivety and assumptions go hand in hand, thank you for instantly proving the point.

Projecting your own opinions onto others and then making judgements about their politics, personalities or intellect is the height of conceit.

To double down on that by playing it off as if you’re doing the poor common morons a favour by allowing them to have been tricked over ignorant, is not kind in any sense of the word, arrogant would be much more appropriate.

Actually I bothered to ask and read the thoughts of countless numbers of leavers, desperate to hear what this magical outcome they sought that us humble remainders had missed. Surely there must be some intellectual argument based in fact or solid economic theory that led them to risk the future of the country? But no, so far it's been nothing but wishful thinking and idiotic nationalism that completely ignores small factors like the EU countries own interests in negotiations.

So yes, they were either tricked or they're stupid. I can't see another rational answer.

 

[Adisa]

"The EU cannot cherry pick"...what planet is he on?

 

[Cal?]

This thread is a classic example unfortunately. And you're right about the demographic here - there's a United forum or two where things are significantly different and far more pro brexit.

But they were/are morons...

I thought that’s agreed by everyone in the world?

 

[Duafc]

Actually I bothered to ask and read the thoughts of countless numbers of leavers, desperate to hear what this magical outcome they sought that us humble remainders had missed. Surely there must be some intellectual argument based in fact or solid economic theory that led them to risk the future of the country? But no, so far it's been nothing but wishful thinking and idiotic nationalism that completely ignores small factors like the EU countries own interests in negotiations.

So yes, they were either tricked or they're stupid. I can't see another rational answer.

Empathy not a strong suit for you then. On a scale of 10 to 17.5 million how many would you say canvassed? Were they wall to wall morons or was there the occasional high functioning psychopath? Were they all less educated or earn less than you? Were they all fat and lazy? Tall? Broadly would you say they stand or sit when wiping their bums?

I ask because you seem an authority on why people do, think or feel a certain way, your unequivocal certainty is close to god like.

The unfortunate reality for us all is that there were a great many reasons why people bought into leaving the EU, some certainly Ill conceived or downright fabricated but not all, it’s totally disingenuous to suggest there weren’t valid arguments made, otherwise there wouldn’t have been a debate, dominant national discourse and a rather sizeable thread on Redcafe. Not withstanding the fact that a lot of people just plain didn’t like things about their life in the UK.

I’d love to live in your simple black and white world though, can’t imagine it’s very much fun for anyone who holds opinions that don’t align with yours though (those would be the idiotic, moron, easily tricked, stupid ones)

Carry on saying I told you so and winning Kentonio! You’re killing it bro.

 

[Silva]

I can't say I've talked to all 17.5 million yet, but the ones I tried to canvas were just shouting that their nurse isn't English enough.

 

[Kentonio]

Empathy not a strong suit for you then. On a scale of 10 to 17.5 million how many would you say canvassed? Were they wall to wall morons or was there the occasional high functioning psychopath? Were they all less educated or earn less than you? Were they all fat and lazy? Tall? Broadly would you say they stand or sit when wiping their bums?

I ask because you seem an authority on why people do, think or feel a certain way, your unequivocal certainty is close to god like.

The unfortunate reality for us all is that there were a great many reasons why people bought into leaving the EU, some certainly Ill conceived or downright fabricated but not all, it’s totally disingenuous to suggest there weren’t valid arguments made, otherwise there wouldn’t have been a debate, dominant national discourse and a rather sizeable thread on Redcafe. Not withstanding the fact that a lot of people just plain didn’t like things about their life in the UK.

I’d love to live in your simple black and white world though, can’t imagine it’s very much fun for anyone who holds opinions that don’t align with yours though (those would be the idiotic, moron, easily tricked, stupid ones)

Carry on saying I told you so and winning Kentonio! You’re killing it bro.

Sure Duafc, I'm just seeing things in a total black and white way, hell I probably didn't even give it any serious thought considering how certain I am. Or perhaps unlike the vast majority of Brexit people I might just be one of the UK citizens who live in the EU yet fall just short of permanent residency, meaning that a no deal Brexit could actually cost me not only my job but my home too. Oh and maybe, just maybe I come from a heavily Leave voting area, had both parents and several siblings vote leave not to mention a huge number of people I grew up around. Perhaps again unlike most people I've been studying this shit pretty much daily since July last year trying to understand, trying to find some get out clause that doesn't mean Britain and by extention the British are actually 100% going to be damaged by this.

So yes, after immersing myself in the fine detail of this fecking nonsense for 17 months now I might feel like I can be fairly certain about what happened. Leave voters fall into multiple categories, there were the bigots and racists, there were the nationalists (not the same group although people often fall into both) and there were the people who felt disassociated from British democracy and believed the bullshit about leaving the EU offering a chance for substantive positive change to their lives. Obviously there will be others, but those 3 camps largely cover most of the reasoning and are quite distinct despite many people belonging in multiple groups. Of those groups, the first are fecking assholes and/or idiots. The second are willing to put their own families economic futures at risk for the sake of an idealistic notion of nationhood and are again out of touch idiots who haven't understood the inevitable implications of globalization, and the third group (the ones who actually deserve the most sympathy) are either idiots for believing the impossible or were tricked into believing the same. There's actually a fourth group which consists of people who stand to profit from economic damage to the UK and near inevitable deregulation, but in terms of numbers (though sadly not influence) they are vanishingly small.

Regardless of which, thanks to their ill advised choices I'm facing potentially not only having my own life royally fecked but also watching all my British friends and family have theirs fecked too in a variety of ways. So if you think I give many fecks about anyone's hurt feelings when I call them idiots, then you'd be very much mistaken.

 

[Javi]

Late contender for rant of the year right there, well done!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The cabinet has agreed to demand a bespoke deal from the EU in the first meeting it has had devoted to a proper discussion of what Brexit outcome it wants.

There are so many things wrong with this headline but it is an accurate summary of how farcical the whole thing is.

 

[rcoobc]

The cabinet has agreed to demand a bespoke deal from the EU in the first meeting it has had devoted to a proper discussion of what Brexit outcome it wants.

There are so many things wrong with this headline but it is an accurate summary of how farcical the whole thing is.

Democracy/government in a nutshell really.

Surprised they haven't subbed brexit out to G4S

 

[Silva]

Surprised they haven't subbed brexit out to G4S

This was actually considered, but the government found someone less competent at the last minute.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Or perhaps unlike the vast majority of Brexit people I might just be one of the UK citizens who live in the EU yet fall just short of permanent residency, meaning that a no deal Brexit could actually cost me not only my job but my home too. Oh and maybe, just maybe I come from a heavily Leave voting area, had both parents and several siblings vote leave not to mention a huge number of people I grew up around. Perhaps again unlike most people I've been studying this shit pretty much daily since July last year trying to understand, trying to find some get out clause that doesn't mean Britain and by extention the British are actually 100% going to be damaged by this.

Aren’t there any jobs in the UK?

 

[Kentonio]

Aren’t there any jobs in the UK?

So its fine for me to lose my job and home because I can always get one back in England? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Steven Seagull]

So its fine for me to lose my job and home because I can always get one back in England? Is that what you're saying?

Lose the attitude it’s just a question. Only trying to understand why some people are so dogmatic about it from either side

 

[fcbforever]

So its fine for me to lose my job and home because I can always get one back in England? Is that what you're saying?

Yes. Get back to mother England, pleb.

Lose the attitude it’s just a question. Only trying to understand why some people are so dogmatic about it from either side

You question was just very, very dumb. There’s surely jobs for me in New Zealand as well. I still don’t want to leave my friends, home and family if I don’t have to.

 

[Kentonio]

Lose the attitude it’s just a question. Only trying to understand why some people are so dogmatic about it from either side

Well shucks yeah, when you put it like that why should anyone get upset about potentially losing their home and job when they can just move to a different country and get a new one?

For fecks sake the state of that post..

 

[Steven Seagull]

Well shucks yeah, when you put it like that why should anyone get upset about potentially losing their home and job when they can just move to a different country and get a new one?

For fecks sake the state of that post..

Was wondering whether you moved away for work or were just posted abroad for the time being.

I’ve moved away due to lack of work before. It’s less than ideal that’s for sure

 

[Kentonio]

Was wondering whether you moved away for work or were just posted abroad for the time being.

I’ve moved away due to lack of work before. It’s less than ideal that’s for sure

Sorry for snapping, this subject just gets me really pissy. Nah I moved for a great job and because I wanted to be in France.

 

[Jippy]

The cabinet has agreed to demand a bespoke deal from the EU in the first meeting it has had devoted to a proper discussion of what Brexit outcome it wants.

There are so many things wrong with this headline but it is an accurate summary of how farcical the whole thing is.

I understand that the government is useless and incompetent, but I genuinely don't understand how we could get so far down the line before this is actually discussed.
I assumed (or hoped) they'd just had infomal meetings which weren't minuted and it was just semantics.
But after Davis admitted he lied and just couldn't be arsed to do the impact assessments, it seems they really have just done nothing.
Did a cabinet member just one day pipe up in a meeting and say 'oh crap, we still haven't discussed that Brexit stuff yet, maybe next week'?
My god. Take back control.
Penises have caused rape.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Aren’t there any jobs in the UK?

At best that question is insensitive.

 

[Steven Seagull]

At best that question is insensitive.

Yes. You’re the 3rd person to complain about such vile words. I meant no harm

 

[GloryHunter07]

Yes. You’re the 3rd person to complain about such vile words. I meant no harm

Lose the attitude, maybe you are in the wrong?

 

[Smores]

Dear god the sectoral analysis papers are embarrassing.

I just looked at the asset management one since its relevant to me. It's 5 pages of large spread out text and contains nothing of value or no analysis. It's astonishing

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I understand that the government is useless and incompetent, but I genuinely don't understand how we could get so far down the line before this is actually discussed.
I assumed (or hoped) they'd just had infomal meetings which weren't minuted and it was just semantics.
But after Davis admitted he lied and just couldn't be arsed to do the impact assessments, it seems they really have just done nothing.
Did a cabinet member just one day pipe up in a meeting and say 'oh crap, we still haven't discussed that Brexit stuff yet, maybe next week'?
My god. Take back control.
Penises have caused rape.

Any government would find this a massive challenge because what they want to do is just about impossible. This government is easily the worst government in my lifetime and haven't a hope.
They have to keep the border open , they have to stay in the single market not only for trading but the City, however, if they hint this at the Brexiters the hardliners and the press start jumping up and down.

Businesses and the City must be very close to making some big decisions. What could be even worse is that these decisions are taken and in the end the UK stays in the EU in all but name.
Which businesses would trust this government to deliver anything. The EU don't trust them and why should other countries around the world. How low can they drag the UK down?
Problem is Corbyn is the opposition, the devil and the deep blue sea.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Dear god the sectoral analysis papers are embarrassing.

I just looked at the asset management one since its relevant to me. It's 5 pages of large spread out text and contains nothing of value or no analysis. It's astonishing

I just read the one about the Maritime and Ports.
Did someone ask a schoolboy to write a 13 page essay about some aspects of shipping?

Not one word about any impact of leaving the EU - surely this can't be happening.

 

[Jippy]

Any government would find this a massive challenge because what they want to do is just about impossible. This government is easily the worst government in my lifetime and haven't a hope.
They have to keep the border open , they have to stay in the single market not only for trading but the City, however, if they hint this at the Brexiters the hardliners and the press start jumping up and down.

Businesses and the City must be very close to making some big decisions. What could be even worse is that these decisions are taken and in the end the UK stays in the EU in all but name.
Which businesses would trust this government to deliver anything. The EU don't trust them and why should other countries around the world. How low can they drag the UK down?
Problem is Corbyn is the opposition, the devil and the deep blue sea.

Their mandate is impossible, agreed, but the cackhanded way they've gone about it, not to mention riling the EU and member states along the way is what is most galling.

 

[Smores]

I just read the one about the Maritime and Ports.
Did someone ask a schoolboy to write a 13 page essay about some aspects of shipping?

Not one word about any impact of leaving the EU - surely this can't be happening.

I can see why they didn't want them released but couldn't they have done something since the first request to at least make it look like they did their job. Even from a purely documentation standards perspective its horrendous.

They'll be saying they don't trust or see the value in words next.

 

[Jippy]

Dear god the sectoral analysis papers are embarrassing.

I just looked at the asset management one since its relevant to me. It's 5 pages of large spread out text and contains nothing of value or no analysis. It's astonishing

I haven't had a chance to have a look yet. Does it even mention passporting?

 

[Adisa]

Dear god the sectoral analysis papers are embarrassing.

I just looked at the asset management one since its relevant to me. It's 5 pages of large spread out text and contains nothing of value or no analysis. It's astonishing

Read the same thing for the same reason.
My boss had a similar word for it...
"Useless".

 

[Smores]

I haven't had a chance to have a look yet. Does it even mention passporting?

Only in the dictionary sense, its all just descriptive. A few sentences what management passport is, a few on UCITS, MiFiD etc.

If you did a quick google you'd glance at more information.

If i was being extemely kind id say maybe maybe they'd qualify as a terms of reference.

 

[JPRouve]

I just read the one about the Maritime and Ports.
Did someone ask a schoolboy to write a 13 page essay about some aspects of shipping?

Not one word about any impact of leaving the EU - surely this can't be happening.

I said it earlier but these things exists and are already out there which tells you how inept your government is, they can't even cheat and steal someone else's job.

https://www.britishmarine.co.uk/News/2017/November/British-Marine-latest-update-on-Brexit

 

[Jippy]

Only in the dictionary sense, its all just descriptive. A few sentences what management passport is, a few on UCITS, MiFiD etc.

If you did a quick google you'd glance at more information.

If i was being extemely kind id say maybe maybe they'd qualify as a terms of reference.

But nothing on how many jobs we might lose to Dublin, Lux or wherever or impact of this on tax receipts etc...I'm guessing?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Their mandate is impossible, agreed, but the cackhanded way they've gone about it, not to mention riling the EU and member states along the way is what is most galling.

It's almost as if they've given up trying to make a decent stab at doing a reasonable job, they seem to be at the point of just saying anything to keep the wolves from the door. What I really don't understand is how they get away with it.

I can see why they didn't want them released but couldn't they have done something since the first request to at least make it look like they did their job. Even from a purely documentation standards perspective its horrendous.

They'll be saying they don't trust or see the value in words next.

It is pure negligence.

I said it earlier but these things exists and are already out there which tells you how inept your government is, they can't even cheat and steal someone else's job.

https://www.britishmarine.co.uk/News/2017/November/British-Marine-latest-update-on-Brexit

Quite, but please do not call them my government

 

[JPRouve]

Quite, but please do not call them my government

You are british and a tory, it's your government.

But on a more serious note, the assessments are done and published by entrepreneur federations and associations, it's done in the UK and abroad. So it's perplexing to see a government naive enough to think that they can dodge it, at some point decent journalists will bypass the government and just use the multiple sources that are available and the public will know what the professionals already know.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You are british and a tory, it's your government.

But on a more serious note, the assessments are done and published by entrepreneur federations and associations, it's done in the UK and abroad. So it's perplexing to see a government naive enough to think that they can dodge it, at some point decent journalists will bypass the government and just use the multiple sources that are available and the public will know what the professionals already know.

I didn't vote this rabble in

Yes, assessments are being done continuously and the professionals are certainly not waiting or relying on some government reports. The public had plenty of information available prior to the vote to inform them of what was at stake, but was by and large ignored as will any information available now or later.

The truth and reality are irrelevant. I was talking to some Brits the other day who voted Brexit, apparently the UK have already concluded a deal with the USA and Germany are also about to leave the EU. It's part of a new book coming out, Theresa in Blunderland.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Any government would find this a massive challenge because what they want to do is just about impossible. This government is easily the worst government in my lifetime and haven't a hope.
They have to keep the border open , they have to stay in the single market not only for trading but the City, however, if they hint this at the Brexiters the hardliners and the press start jumping up and down.

Businesses and the City must be very close to making some big decisions. What could be even worse is that these decisions are taken and in the end the UK stays in the EU in all but name.
Which businesses would trust this government to deliver anything. The EU don't trust them and why should other countries around the world. How low can they drag the UK down?
Problem is Corbyn is the opposition, the devil and the deep blue sea.

It’s a massive (impossible) challenge because May tacked so hard to the right at the start of her premiership and implicitly signed up to the “have cake and eat it” position. If she had shown leadership and engaged in honest dialogue with the wider country at that time, she wouldn’t be so busy trying to square circles.

 

[Stanley Road]

So its fine for me to lose my job and home because I can always get one back in England? Is that what you're saying?

Why would you lose your job in france cos.of brexit? I've just lost mune in Holland not.cos of brexit. I spose if i lose my home at the end of.the day i could try blaming brexit.

Its capitalist greed that has cost my job and hundreds in the company over the years. I wish i could blame brexit but that would just be silly cos its not true.

 

[Wibble]

Why would you lose your job in france cos.of brexit? I've just lost mune in Holland not.cos of brexit. I spose if i lose my home at the end of.the day i could try blaming brexit.

Its capitalist greed that has cost my job and hundreds in the company over the years. I wish i could blame brexit but that would just be silly cos its not true.

If he hasn't been there long enough for post Brexit employment he can lose his job due to Brexit.

 

[Dan]

Yay blue passports are coming back.

 

[Stanley Road]

If he hasn't been there long enough for post Brexit employment he can lose his job due to Brexit.

When a company wants you, they will keep you using any means they can. I'm afraid that's the bottom line and why around 40% of my colleagues are non eu passport holders.