German Elections 2017

User 72192 said:
If there are new elections, people will want to punish Merkel, I'm pretty sure. The last result wasn't good anyways, next one could be a disaster for the Union. Expect SPD and FDP to gain a bit, especially greens and Union to decline. But all in all I feel like Jamaica coalition is still the most likely thing to happen, given new elections will be done.

Regarding the FDP: for most of the society, the FDP is a 1 man party. Most people simply don't know anyone but Lindner, the cnut.
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I don't think the results of another election would be much different. The way he positioned his party even right of the CSU at times during the coalition talks, Lindner might snatch up some of the AfD vote.
On the other hand, he's likely to lose part of the moderate and level headed voters who in all likelihood will defect to either CDU or the Greens. He orchestrated this mess, and obstructionism is rarely commonly appreciated.
The CDU might or might not lose some votes to the SPD, depending on how much they(SPD) are improving their campaign message. Don't think they'll lose more to the AfD, as I feel they already siphoned off the "o noes, foreigners will take us over and destroy our country"-crowd.
The Greens I predict to at least retain their last result if not achieving slight gains. The climate debate has gained traction again, and with the general convention being we're not going to achieve our reduction goals, their agenda has a lot of pull. Also, they employed a rather clever strategy during the talks by going public with suggestions for compromises. They appeared as constructive, which can much less be said about the FDP, and Lindner who was talking about re-elections 3 weeks ago already.
 
There can be no coalition with the Green party. I dont care for the FDP, but well done Lindner for fecking them over. Also hopefully the end of Merkel, but i doubt it
 
What a pointless statement from Steinmeier, comes across extremely like a spokeperson for Merkel to push someone into a coalition with the CDU.
 
User 72192 said:
It actually was a pretty good speech imo. He reminds those who were seeking responsibility to fulfill their duty.
It's not pushing anyone to form a coalition with the Union...some parties and by that I mean their leaders, have obviously lost humbleness. The way the FDP went into the coalition negotiations and how they ended suggest that they never planned on forming any coalition and only pay respect to themselves and those who elected them. They seem to not be able to grasp that the whole Bundestag consists of representatives of the whole country. This form of behavior is shameful.

Edit:

Seems like professional politicians simply have become professionals. There's no honor and dignity left in german politics.
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'Seeking responsibility to fullfill their duty' is such an empty statement. Neither responsibility nor duty are clear defined in the context of democracy, a party can well fullfill their duty by going into opposition. Going by your logic the CDU should try to form a goverment with the AfD or the Left Party just for the sake of it because they have responsibility.
It's clear as day that he's just trying to get Jamaica back together or the SPD into another great coalition - and that's exactly what Merkel and the CDU want.

FDP are pricks but that has nothing to do with the issue here.
 
devilish said:
I also cant comprehend why brexiters are so frightened about a united states of Europe considering how eager they are to appease a united states of america. The united kingdom itself is a united states of 4 countries
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Don't think we are frightened about a United States of Europe just let Europe pay for it.


The working classes in the UK are historically the biggest in Europe and due to the success of Hollywood the most vulnerable to losing their jobs to a younger more educated European youth able to replace British workers.


Fear of a powerful Europe is not driving Brexit it is more about a largely disempowered working class feeling excluded from the chance to earn a decent wage and get on the housing ladder. It also follows decades of this happening with high internal immigration from other places without a political mandate allied with outsourcing of 100,00s jobs to other parts of the word and no political representation.


The more socialist governments of Europe often give better education to their children and yet Britain pays more in funds to the EU. In effect we are subsidising the education of students in say Spain for them to come here and take jobs when working class British kids could not afford the courses.
 
The Outsider said:
Don't think we are frightened about a United States of Europe just let Europe pay for it.


The working classes in the UK are historically the biggest in Europe and due to the success of Hollywood the most vulnerable to losing their jobs to a younger more educated European youth able to replace British workers.


Fear of a powerful Europe is not driving Brexit it is more about a largely disempowered working class feeling excluded from the chance to earn a decent wage and get on the housing ladder. It also follows decades of this happening with high internal immigration from other places without a political mandate allied with outsourcing of 100,00s jobs to other parts of the word and no political representation.


The more socialist governments of Europe often give better education to their children and yet Britain pays more in funds to the EU. In effect we are subsidising the education of students in say Spain for them to come here and take jobs when working class British kids could not afford the courses.
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All of this has more to do with the voting in of conservative governments(Including New Labour)rather than the EU and its ''socialism''(I wish people would actually look what socialism means)but anyway this is a problem of global capitalism.Brexit if we are being super generous(I think it's was pretty clear it was almost executively about immigration)was nothing more than a smashing of the machines, a pointless exercise in trying to go back in time.
 
The Outsider said:
Don't think we are frightened about a United States of Europe just let Europe pay for it.


The working classes in the UK are historically the biggest in Europe and due to the success of Hollywood the most vulnerable to losing their jobs to a younger more educated European youth able to replace British workers.


Fear of a powerful Europe is not driving Brexit it is more about a largely disempowered working class feeling excluded from the chance to earn a decent wage and get on the housing ladder. It also follows decades of this happening with high internal immigration from other places without a political mandate allied with outsourcing of 100,00s jobs to other parts of the word and no political representation.


The more socialist governments of Europe often give better education to their children and yet Britain pays more in funds to the EU. In effect we are subsidising the education of students in say Spain for them to come here and take jobs when working class British kids could not afford the courses.
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Already said this in the Brexit thread but we receive a ton of beneficial subsidies from the EU in areas like Wales and Cornwall, subsidies which haven't really been guaranteed to continue post-Brexit. It's not as if we were continually pouring in money with no return.

But don't want to go too far off-topic...
 
Cheesy said:
Already said this in the Brexit thread but we receive a ton of beneficial subsidies from the EU in areas like Wales and Cornwall, subsidies which haven't really been guaranteed to continue post-Brexit. It's not as if we were continually pouring in money with no return.

But don't want to go too far off-topic...
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Just staying off topic. So according to your economics I give you ten pounds and you give me 5 back and somehow that translates to you giving me beneficial subsidies? Sorry but seriously I cannot get my head around that logic. Its perverse.
 
The Outsider said:
Don't think we are frightened about a United States of Europe just let Europe pay for it.


The working classes in the UK are historically the biggest in Europe and due to the success of Hollywood the most vulnerable to losing their jobs to a younger more educated European youth able to replace British workers.


Fear of a powerful Europe is not driving Brexit it is more about a largely disempowered working class feeling excluded from the chance to earn a decent wage and get on the housing ladder. It also follows decades of this happening with high internal immigration from other places without a political mandate allied with outsourcing of 100,00s jobs to other parts of the word and no political representation.


The more socialist governments of Europe often give better education to their children and yet Britain pays more in funds to the EU. In effect we are subsidising the education of students in say Spain for them to come here and take jobs when working class British kids could not afford the courses.
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What.

As for the second bolded part: every country in the EU except GB grants some form of free education to their people. No matter if net payers or not. The German taxpayer is subsidizing British students in Germany who can’t afford studying at home. Yet everyone can afford it and nobody complains. I’ve got a revolutionary idea for you: couldn’t GB as well?
 
The Outsider said:
Don't think we are frightened about a United States of Europe just let Europe pay for it.


The working classes in the UK are historically the biggest in Europe and due to the success of Hollywood the most vulnerable to losing their jobs to a younger more educated European youth able to replace British workers.


Fear of a powerful Europe is not driving Brexit it is more about a largely disempowered working class feeling excluded from the chance to earn a decent wage and get on the housing ladder. It also follows decades of this happening with high internal immigration from other places without a political mandate allied with outsourcing of 100,00s jobs to other parts of the word and no political representation.


The more socialist governments of Europe often give better education to their children and yet Britain pays more in funds to the EU. In effect we are subsidising the education of students in say Spain for them to come here and take jobs when working class British kids could not afford the courses.
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That's quite wierd to say considering that most countries offered free tertiary education for decades. Countries such as Malta had been doing so long before they entered in the EU. There again those country tend to avoid bombing countries because the US said so, they refuse to give financial aid to a country whose got a space programme in place and they certainly dont money to spend on some royal family.

I do agree on housing issues though. There again there's ways and means to control that too like for example limiting house ownership from non EU member landlords and investing heavily on council flats. I wonder how successful the Tory government was on that regard. If I remember well the Qataris own more of London then the queen.
 
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The Outsider said:
Fear of a powerful Europe is not driving Brexit it is more about a largely disempowered working class feeling excluded from the chance to earn a decent wage and get on the housing ladder.
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I take a different view. Fear of increasing political integration in the EU is 100% what is driving Brexit. Brexit, for the political ruling elite in this country (see privileged Eurosceptics like Rees-Mogg) , is all about sovereignty, they deeply resent ceding any powers to the EU and see the current situation as the thin end of the wedge.

The disenfranchised working class have been weaponised by these elites in order to achieve Brexit. The working class are disenfranchised by the inequality apparent within our society, a dynamic that is mostly due to internal economic and social policies, the UK have the worst levels of social mobility of any developed nation bar the US, for example.

The working class have been led to believe that their problems are all due to immigrants taking their jobs and bleeding the country through dishonest welfare claims.

The fact is the by far the largest percetage of welfare payments go to the elderly through state pensions. With the elderly living longer and with more complex and expensive health problems this drain on public funds will increase exponentially.

As we do not have the birth rate to provide enough workers to generate the extra tax receipts to cover these increasing costs we need to import labour. This is why immigration will not end in any significant way after Brexit.
 
Yet another Brexiter managed to drag this thread offtopic:mad:
 
devilish said:
Is this the EU fault too?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ter-homes-budget-philip-hammond-a8066571.html

Flagship Government housing plan fails to deliver a single home in three years
@The Outsider
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Agree not the EU's fault, though the perception remains that governments with their own agendas do not care for the wider population. Hammond has conceded legislation will be needed to force developers to build house instead of just holding the land. It will be interesting to see if he sticks to this pledge.

Classical Mechanic said:
I take a different view. Fear of increasing political integration in the EU is 100% what is driving Brexit. Brexit, for the political ruling elite in this country (see privileged Eurosceptics like Rees-Mogg) , is all about sovereignty, they deeply resent ceding any powers to the EU and see the current situation as the thin end of the wedge.

The disenfranchised working class have been weaponised by these elites in order to achieve Brexit. The working class are disenfranchised by the inequality apparent within our society, a dynamic that is mostly due to internal economic and social policies, the UK have the worst levels of social mobility of any developed nation bar the US, for example.

The working class have been led to believe that their problems are all due to immigrants taking their jobs and bleeding the country through dishonest welfare claims.

The fact is the by far the largest percetage of welfare payments go to the elderly through state pensions. With the elderly living longer and with more complex and expensive health problems this drain on public funds will increase exponentially.

As we do not have the birth rate to provide enough workers to generate the extra tax receipts to cover these increasing costs we need to import labour. This is why immigration will not end in any significant way after Brexit.
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I think Brexit is due to a number of factors and you have identified two at least in bold above. I think it is perceived as the system being unfair and this corresponds with social mobility falling quickly in the UK.

It is interesting with the maps we have seen of German support for AFD being most highly concentrated in areas where there is little immigration. Similarly in Brexit the countryside with relatively low immigration voted strongly for Brexit.
There appears to be a lack of understanding of the dynamics involved. East Germany is typically poorer and less industrialised than West Germany. In both countries economics might be a factor with a lack of investment or their might be another in that they have seen what has happened in other places with high immigration and do not want that in their areas and so have voted the way they have.

Re the low birth rate - couples do not feel they can afford large families with child care costs and housing costs per my conversations with those at work.
 
Hopefully the SPD base kills the idea of another great coalition.
German politicians need to stop being so afraid of minority governments.
 
Knew it. The SPD has basically become a centrist party. Just merge with the CDU and case closed.
 
I hope that Glyphosate vote by the Union in Brussels is enough to kill the great coalition talks early on...
 
Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 said:
Read Germany voted in favour. How does it work there?
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Normally if two ministries disagree on an issue the responsible ministery abstain the vote. Ministry of enviroment (SPD) wanted to reject the proposal why the ministry of agriculture (CSU) was in favor and therefore voted yes without listening. The SPD is now understandably pissed.
 
Kasper said:
Normally if two ministries disagree on an issue the responsible ministery abstain the vote. Ministry of enviroment (SPD) wanted to reject the proposal why the ministry of agriculture (CSU) was in favor and therefore voted yes without listening. The SPD is now understandably pissed.
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So the great coalition could be in danger.
 
Breaking



‘Votes against motion to block‘ = ok to discuss?
 
The SPD is hilarious and incredible dumb at the same time. Had the chance to force Merkel to squirm into a minority government and blew it.
 
Kasper said:
The SPD is hilarious and incredible dumb at the same time. Had the chance to force Merkel to squirm into a minority government and blew it.
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Guess they are afraid of voting again and trying to capitalize on a minority government. All the left-wing around the globe lack courage atm though. GroKo is the safest option.
 
Seehofer and Schulz both very happy with the results of coalition talks. State of the SPD:lol:
 
Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 said:
The SPD is finished. Sad.
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It's amazing, and the more I read about it the more it becomes a symbol of the grand failure of Marx. The party was formed on Marxist principles near the end of his life (late 19th c). It grew quickly despite huge repression, and by early 20th c was the largest and most powerful workers party anywhere (including Russia), and the single-largest party in Germany.
When it had probably enough power to disrupt the whole country, the SPD led by Kautsky (as the only powerful leftist party anywhere in the world) voted *for* WW1, which created a fatal division in the "international" communist movement. It came to power at the end of the war and was notable for destroying a leftist uprising and murdering its leaders (Rosa Luxemberg and Karl liebknecht, who had both left the party because of the war). It then shares the blame alongwith the Communist Party for not allying when the Nazis were gaining in strength.
I'll confess I don't know much about the party till Schroder and the embrace of 3rd way stuff I believe they had a successful chancellor post-war. Now after moving to the right, it has been completely subsumed under the Christian Democrats.

From revolutionary international communism to the junior partner of the conservatives.
 
Brandt and Schmidt were two former chancellors from the SPD. They did well for their party and the European Union.

Despite not being marxist anymore after The Godesberg Program, the SPD was still leftist enough until Schroder came to power. He approved many reforms that did well to Germany, but caused the actual collapse for the SPD.
 
The worst thing is that the opposition will be lead by a far-right party now. What a shit decision.
 
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