Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
I think some people think Brexit is just being used as a convenient excuse.

Their chocolate bar gets smaller and Brexit is blamed.

They react saying it is rubbish and they move on.

Trying to explain the complex trade involved in getting all aspects of that chocolate bar here, cocoa beans from Africa, cane sugar from Caribbean or beet sugar from domestic growers....but who will help with harvesting the crop with no cheap labour? - it's all too complicated so it is compartmentalised and ignored.

These stats with reductions in growth of 6-8% mask a terrible further truth. The reductions in public spending when the banks collapsed were against a background of these institutions having surpluses and good budgets. By now that has all been cut away and we are hitting bone. The cuts take time to filter through and we will see major institutions collapse if we continue down this road.

The brexiteers that voted in good faith to get the NHS more money may face a critical decision soon - do you want brexit OR the NHS as we can't afford both the way things are going. Interesting to see where people stand on that issue!
 
JPRouve said:
Simple. The benefits come from somewhere, if your economy shrinks by 2% to 5%, the benefits will be one of the first target, the people in your town that have a job might lose them which could easily kill your little town, the ones that could have left and partially finance your benefits will be in line with you at the job center or collecting their reduced benefits and that chain continue up to London.
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Right. I get that. But then i voted remain, am a graduate with a decent job, living in a city that hasnt had the life sucked out of it by a lack of opportunities. So my instinctive understanding of the situation is the same as yours. My personal take on it is the same as yours. But I am saying there is a constituency of people in the UK who see things very differently. And the "what is best for London is best for the rest of the country because London pays most of the taxes" argument just doesnt cut it with them. That much is surely evident.
 
What the f... just happened? The British mass media had spun an anti-EU and xenophobic agenda for years. Brexit advocates emphasized immigration and lost revenue in their arguments. Mix in a vague romance about England, Great Britain etc., and a unique set of political circumstances.

The Tories shoring up their right flank, UKIP, Boris; what a toxic cocktail steamed in the pot. The romance, of course, was just that, never more than a comfy bit of double-think, lip service for soft-focus Tories, a harmless delusion based around old glories, like a BBC re-run of a seventies favourite.

Until unexpectedly, almost impossibly, it went live, like an experimental virus escaping a lab. When it actually happened, that very day, the promoters looked more shocked than its opponents. Like Trumpism, anti-decision took on a life of its own, a millennial fever raged. Time itself and everyday reality appeared suspended as the ship of state wildly veered along a totally unplanned, nakedly populist course. No one expected the adults not to come back and restore order.

The next day reality is bitter. It’s nice to sing the old songs, especially in the witching hour, but the gap between how the international fabric works and the Britannia Rules the Waves myth is cruelly exposed in the cold light of day.

The trend - as shown by the gov’s own research as per Buzzfeed leak - is grim, that is, if Brexit goes ahead. All is not lost though. The Trump era will end. The mystery money to the DUP will not come again. Brexit fever shows signs of wearing off. Some ugly rocks loom up ahead. Only question now is the extent of the damage, politically, economically and in terms of international standing, before sanity is restored.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
So as has been said all along:
Soft Brexit: As you were, but no vote, no rebates and 2% drop in GDP, Remainers say whoopee!
Hard Brexit: 8% drop in GDP, economic hell - Brexiters say whoopee!

Looking for the benefit.
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A: We get to make our own laws.
Q: And which laws in particular are you looking forward to changing?
A: Er...... not sure really. But at least theyll be our laws, dammit.

Its really all about migrants I think. But there is no turning back the clock and I doubt in the end the control (if we even get it back) will be worth the price we end up paying for it. I mean, for sure I wont think so, but I suspect even people who voted to Leave will end up feeling the price was way too high.
 
Adebesi said:
A: We get to make our own laws.
Q: And which laws in particular are you looking forward to changing?
A: Er...... not sure really. But at least theyll be our laws, dammit.

Its really all about migrants I think. But there is no turning back the clock and I doubt in the end the control (if we even get it back) will be worth the price we end up paying for it. I mean, for sure I wont think so, but I suspect even people who voted to Leave will end up feeling the price was way too high.
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I've been waiting for two years for a Brexiter to name one law.
It is all about immigrants and some form of fantasy national identity. On the economic front Brexiters say that they don't care if the economy takes a hit as long as they get their way but at the same time claim that they want to save the £8bn (or £20+bn if you're Boris Johnson) a year.

Reality is slowly getting closer and this fantasy world Brexiters are hoping for gets further away day by day.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Brexiters in integrity shocker.
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I am not particularly proud of Malta's IIP tbh but this takes the biscuit. Its seems ok for this Brexiteer to buy his way into Europe while keeping the rest of the Brits away from such benefit.
 
devilish said:
I don't understand why the Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime gets so much prominence considering that he got owned by friggin Ali G. Expert trade negotiations will wipe the floor with him.
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I dont really get it either. He comes across as quite sincere, maybe? Certainly compared to a lot of other politicians. And while he is right wing, he has a sort of old-school Tory paternalistic kindness thing going on. Without question he is about as out of touch as it is possible to be, a super rich Etonian who has no idea what its like for anyone in the bottom 95% of the UK. And yet somehow it comes across that he at least might care - a little bit - if he knew. He seems... well meaning? Again, in comparison with the Tory party average.

That is the best I can do, in terms of explaining it. That is the sense i get. Certainly, the Tories I know regard him almost like a rock star, though there is a slight irony in their deference as well, an acknowledgement that part of his "cool" is how utterly uncool he is. I guess for some people that has some sort of appeal.

A general election pitting Rees Mogg's Tories against Labour under Corbyn would certainly be interesting.
 
Adebesi said:
I dont really get it either. He comes across as quite sincere, maybe? Certainly compared to a lot of other politicians. And while he is right wing, he has a sort of old-school Tory paternalistic kindness thing going on. Without question he is about as out of touch as it is possible to be, a super rich Etonian who has no idea what its like for anyone in the bottom 95% of the UK. And yet somehow it comes across that he at least might care - a little bit - if he knew. He seems... well meaning? Again, in comparison with the Tory party average.

That is the best I can do, in terms of explaining it. That is the sense i get. Certainly, the Tories I know regard him almost like a rock star, though there is a slight irony in their deference as well, an acknowledgement that part of his "cool" is how utterly uncool he is. I guess for some people that has some sort of appeal.

A general election pitting Rees Mogg's Tories against Labour under Corbyn would certainly be interesting.
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I think the Tory party will not win next GE. I doubt they even want to win in the first place. Sometimes in politics you reach a stage when parties are so stuck up in mud that they simply need some time in opposition to regroup. The Brexiteer strategy was to throw a spanner into the EU system which they hoped to either destroy the entire system or force the EU to give the UK a deal it can't refuse. It didn't work out. Now Trump can tank that as the US can afford not having a great relationship with the EU. Can the UK afford that? I doubt it.

Under such circumstance instead of being confronted with the consequences of their lies, I think that the Tories are better off with JC taking the Brexit hot potato off their hands. He will of course 'make a mess out of it' (the hype surrounding the UK is so big that nothing short then a scenario where the EU,US, India and China do not beg for a trade deal will be considered a dissapointment) and then be blamed it.
 
devilish said:
I think the Tory party will not win next GE. I doubt they even want to win in the first place. Sometimes in politics you reach a stage when parties are so stuck up in mud that they simply need some time in opposition to regroup. The Brexiteer strategy was to throw a spanner into the EU system which they hoped to either destroy the entire system or force the EU to give the UK a deal it can't refuse. It didn't work out. Now Trump can tank that as the US can afford not having a great relationship with the EU. Can the UK afford that? I doubt it.

Under such circumstance instead of being confronted with the consequences of their lies, I think that the Tories are better off with JC taking the Brexit hot potato off their hands. He will of course 'make a mess out of it' (the hype surrounding the UK is so big that nothing short then a scenario where the EU,US, India and China do not beg for a trade deal will be considered a dissapointment) and then be blamed it.
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I agree whoever is in charge when we march off the Brexit cliff is going to have a very, very big problem. I guess the fact both sides appear to be doing everything they can to portray themselves as unelectable morons would support your theory that the Tories dont really want power (and neither, in that case, do Labour). It would explain why nobody is challenging May, despite the current leader having absolutely nothing going for her at all. You could ask who would want to lead the Tories now. But there is at least one person - Boris Johnson.

Actually I dont think politicians are that sophisticated. They want to win because they want power and they think they have the answers. I think one side of the Tory party is genuinely rabidly anti-EU and desperate for the chance to realise their career-long ambition of getting us out. And the other side probably think they are the only ones who can steer us safely though the minefield without blowing the country up, while saving us from descending into Trotskyism. And then you have Labour, who really ought to be the ones keenest to steer clear of the whole sorry business until after the issue has been settled, who must be determined to get their hands on power, having spent the past 3 decades assuming they would never lead anything more significant than a CND march.

So as much as it looks like everyone is doing their best to appear incompetent, in fact I suspect actually they all really are.
 
Adebesi said:
I agree whoever is in charge when we march off the Brexit cliff is going to have a very, very big problem. I guess the fact both sides appear to be doing everything they can to portray themselves as unelectable morons would support your theory that the Tories dont really want power (and neither, in that case, do Labour). It would explain why nobody is challenging May, despite the current leader having absolutely nothing going for her at all. You could ask who would want to lead the Tories now. But there is at least one person - Boris Johnson.

Actually I dont think politicians are that sophisticated. They want to win because they want power and they think they have the answers. I think one side of the Tory party is genuinely rabidly anti-EU and desperate for the chance to realise their career-long ambition of getting us out. And the other side probably think they are the only ones who can steer us safely though the minefield without blowing the country up, while saving us from descending into Trotskyism. And then you have Labour, who really ought to be the ones keenest to steer clear of the whole sorry business until after the issue has been settled, who must be determined to get their hands on power, having spent the past 3 decades assuming they would never lead anything more significant than a CND march.

So as much as it looks like everyone is doing their best to appear incompetent, in fact I suspect actually they all really are.
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I have to disagree there. I’ve witnessed situations were politics willingly sabotaged their leader because they believed they could do better or the party is better off out of power during such critical time. I am not enough well versed in UK politics to pinpoint many definitive examples of that. However I believe that the Brexiteers reaction to Cameron’s resignation is a good start. At that time Davies and Fox vanished in thin wind, Farage resigned, there was that ridiculous Gove and Boris childhood spat that couldn’t come out more choreographed if they wanted to not to forget Leadsom’s vile insult towards Theresa May which basically burned every chance of her winning. That’s not how politicians act if they really want the job.

There’s a similar situation at the moment. TM is being mocked both in the UK and in Europe, the Brexiters are on revolt, the Tory party are in turmoil and yet, the prime minister still linger to power. If there's someone who really want the job he would get it. Instead you've got Boris whose constantly making gaffes to keep himself out of the race and the Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime who keep reitarating about what a good leader she is.


And honestly, I can’t blame them for not wanting the role. First of all, most of the Brexit promises were over exaggerations if not lies. Secondly since WW2 there was no worse time to start negotiating trade deals then now. I mean look around you. Russia is on the defensive and the ME/North Africa are in shambles. Not to forget that the US is led by a mad man who might or might not remain president for long and whose idea of making the US great again is to trample over the rest. That is leading almost everyone (EU, China, Canada, India etc) to the defensive and might degenerate to a trade war.

And who the hell would want to negotiate with such hostile man? One day he says one thing, the next day he say sanother thing and there’s no guarantee he won’t get impeached anytime soon which would then put everything either on hold or on heavy scrutiny. The only thing Trump is constant about is that he wants to screw the rest in favour of national interest, which of course, is bad news for the UK especially at a time when its desperate on its ally + is still relearning how trade deals are done. FFS up to few months ago the Brexit secretary didn’t even know that it wasn’t possible to make a trade deal with individual EU countries. These are the people leading the UK at the moment.
 
devilish said:
I have to disagree there. I’ve witnessed situations were politics willingly sabotaged their leader because they believed they could do better or the party is better off out of power during such critical time. I am not enough well versed in UK politics to pinpoint many definitive examples of that. However I believe that the Brexiteers reaction to Cameron’s resignation is a good start. At that time Davies and Fox vanished in thin wind, Farage resigned, there was that ridiculous Gove and Boris childhood spat that couldn’t come out more choreographed if they wanted to not to forget Leadsom’s vile insult towards Theresa May which basically burned every chance of her winning. That’s not how politicians act if they really want the job.

There’s a similar situation at the moment. TM is being mocked both in the UK and in Europe, the Brexiters are on revolt, the Tory party are in turmoil and yet, the prime minister still linger to power. If there's someone who really want the job he would get it. Instead you've got Boris whose constantly making gaffes to keep himself out of the race and the Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime who keep reitarating about what a good leader she is.


And honestly, I can’t blame them for not wanting the role. First of all, most of the Brexit promises were over exaggerations if not lies. Secondly since WW2 there was no worse time to start negotiating trade deals then now. I mean look around you. Russia is on the defensive and the ME/North Africa are in shambles. Not to forget that the US is led by a mad man who might or might not remain president for long and whose idea of making the US great again is to trample over the rest. That is leading almost everyone (EU, China, Canada, India etc) to the defensive and might degenerate to a trade war.

And who the hell would want to negotiate with such hostile man? One day he says one thing, the next day he say sanother thing and there’s no guarantee he won’t get impeached anytime soon which would then put everything either on hold or on heavy scrutiny. The only thing Trump is constant about is that he wants to screw the rest in favour of national interest, which of course, is bad news for the UK especially at a time when its desperate on its ally + is still relearning how trade deals are done. FFS up to few months ago the Brexit secretary didn’t even know that it wasn’t possible to make a trade deal with individual EU countries. These are the people leading the UK at the moment.
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As I said, I think most of this is genuine ineptitude, not conscious self-sabotage. Farage resignation is a red herring because he was not in a position of power even as leader of his party. The Gove - Johnson fallout was real, Im pretty sure of that. Johnson really is that much of a buffoon, its not an act, its consistent with his political career from the beginning. If Leadsom's comments about motherhood were designed to prevent her getting the leadership then fair play to her. But surely there are easier ways to destroy your own political career.

I agree people "supporting" May do not come across as sincere. And I agree few people would want her job at the moment (Johnson definitely wants it). But not wanting to be PM and not wanting your own party to be in government are quite different things. Especially if the alternative is the Labour party. I dont doubt that the right are genuinely terrified about what a Labour government would do to this country. And in fact the simplest explanation for their "pretend" support for May is they are petrified of another General Election that they would probably lose, ushering in the Labour government you think they want.

But anyway, we agree on the bigger point, that this country is up shit creek without a paddle and Brexit is going to be catastrophic.
 
devilish said:
I have to disagree there. I’ve witnessed situations were politics willingly sabotaged their leader because they believed they could do better or the party is better off out of power during such critical time. I am not enough well versed in UK politics to pinpoint many definitive examples of that. However I believe that the Brexiteers reaction to Cameron’s resignation is a good start. At that time Davies and Fox vanished in thin wind, Farage resigned, there was that ridiculous Gove and Boris childhood spat that couldn’t come out more choreographed if they wanted to not to forget Leadsom’s vile insult towards Theresa May which basically burned every chance of her winning. That’s not how politicians act if they really want the job.
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As Adebesi points out, it's worth remembering that these people really are very, very stupid.
 
Kentonio said:
As Adebesi points out, it's worth remembering that these people really are very, very stupid.
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Well I happen to know a former classmate of Boris (wife's colleague) and he insists that its all for show. I am not the only person in the UK who thinks that Brexiteers do not want to be part of the government whose negotiating Brexit. James O'Brien agrees with this idea too. It would explain why Boris is doing his absolute best to get kicked out of government and why no one has seriously challenging TM for the PM role.
 
devilish said:
Well I happen to know a former classmate of Boris (wife's colleague) and he insists that its all for show. I am not the only person in the UK who thinks that Brexiteers do not want to be part of the government whose negotiating Brexit. James O'Brien agrees with this idea too. It would explain why Boris is doing his absolute best to get kicked out of government and why no one has seriously challenging TM for the PM role.
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To be fair, Boris isn't stupid, he's just ridiculously arrogant.
 
Kentonio said:
To be fair, Boris isn't stupid, he's just ridiculously arrogant.
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I've worked with politicians and arrogance is a common trait. You need to be arrogant to think that you can manage a country. However, arrogance is not the issue here. The trouble with Boris is that he would do absolutely anything to advance in his political career. Such obsession is so relevant in his book about Churchill. In that book, he sort of hinted that Churchill went toe to toe against the Nazis not because of morals or principle but because it was good for his own career.

Someone like that, would do anything to advance (ie lying, throwing people under the bus etc) and would never allow anything to wreck his career. If that means stepping back a little, allow other to be blamed for his mistakes only to pounce back when the environment is 'more appropriate' then so be it.

I mean, seriously, look at him. There's no better time for him to take the top job so what is he waiting for? Brexit Theresa May is so weak that even a drift of wind can wipe her away from Westminster. Instead of launching an serious bid to take her place, he's seems focused on his weekly gaffes all of which are serious sackable offenses. Last time round we was at a whisker away from power only to have his former Brexit best mate Gove backstabbing in what looked like a school boy's brawl. That basically ruled them both out of the PM race. That script was more predictable then predicting who would win in a football match between La Liga Stars and Redcafe XI. There's no way Gove and Boris would have done that without knowing what the consequence of it would be.

Most Brexiteers in the Tory party don't want to be in the Tory Brexit government anymore. They know its a bad thing and when the jury is out they want to be as far away as possible so he can shift the blame to others (TM, JC etc). Rees-Mogg is doing the same thing. Brexit is good, I would do things differently BUT Im 100% loyal to Theresa May as she's the most appropriate player for the job. Let TM or JM takes the slack and then return to blame someone for their mistake.
 
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devilish said:
I've worked with politicians and arrogance is a common trait. You need to be arrogant to think that you can manage a country. However, arrogance is not the issue here. The trouble with Boris is that he would do absolutely anything to advance in his political career. Such obsession is so relevant in his book about Churchill. In that book, he sort of hinted that Churchill went toe to toe against the Nazis not because of morals or principle but because it was good for his own career.

Someone like that, would do anything to advance (ie lying, throwing people under the bus etc) and would never allow anything to wreck his career. If that means stepping back a little, allow other to be blamed for his mistakes only to pounce back when the environment is 'more appropriate' then so be it.

I mean, seriously, look at him. There's no better time for him to take the top job so what is he waiting for? Brexit Theresa May is so weak that even a drift of wind can wipe her away from Westminster. Instead of launching an serious bid to take her place, he's seems focused on his weekly gaffes all of which are serious sackable offenses. Last time round we was at a whisker away from power only to have his former Brexit best mate Gove backstabbing in what looked like a school boy's brawl. That basically ruled them both out of the PM race. That script was more predictable then predicting who would win in a football match between La Liga Stars and Redcafe XI. There's no way Gove and Boris would have done that without knowing what the consequence of it would be.

Most Brexiteers in the Tory party don't want to be in the Tory Brexit government anymore. They know its a bad thing and when the jury is out they want to be as far away as possible so he can shift the blame to others (TM, JC etc). Rees-Mogg is doing the same thing. Brexit is good, I would do things differently BUT Im 100% loyal to Theresa May as she's the most appropriate player for the job. Let TM or JM takes the slack and then return to blame someone for their mistake.
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I don't think people are going to be forgetting Boris's role in Brexit any time soon.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
I don't think people are going to be forgetting Boris's role in Brexit any time soon.
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I think he knows that. However if he manages to somehow get out of the government then he will able to blame the disastrous outcome of Brexit not on Brexit itself but on how the negotiations had been conducted or the JC effect on UK economy.

Look around you.

a- Cameron resigns
b- Gove and Boris engage in that stupid spat despite being quite evident that it will sink them both
c- Leadstom's vile attack on May basically ruined her chance of becoming PM
d- Priti Patel's antics knocks her out of government
e- Boris engage himself in weekly gaffes which are often sackable offenses
e- Rees-Mogg criticise the Brexit negotiations in every way but his tone changes radically once someone suggest that he could do a better job then Theresa May

The rats are indeed escaping the sinking ship
 
712 said:
I can see how it might appear that way, but it's consistent with UK politicians' position throughout, they simply don't understand that by and large the EU negotiators and spokespeople mean what they say.
Unfortunately and embarrassingly that's an alien concept to our lot.
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Nah they're genuinely just chatting bollocks to appease likes of Mogg. Wouldn't surprise me if in private their on their knees begging the EU
 
December: There will be no hard border in Ireland and no hard border between NI and the rest of the UK (e.g we must be staying in the customs union or some equivalent replacement)

February: To be clear, we will not be staying in any customs union.

Honestly the incompetence/ineptitude and dereliction of duty by this government continues to astonish.

We are 19 months into the process. And at every fork in the road Theresa May continues to insist that we can go both left and right simultaneously. All while a countdown, that she initiated, is getting perilously close to completion.
 
Untied said:
December: There will be no hard border in Ireland and no hard border between NI and the rest of the UK (e.g we must be staying in the customs union or some equivalent replacement)

February: To be clear, we will not be staying in any customs union.

.
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Rather depends doesn't it. Is the Sweden Norway border hard?
 
rcoobc said:
Rather depends doesn't it. Is the Sweden Norway border hard?
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I just realized that I have never corrected that part, we are mixing hard border with regulated border. At the moment the EU allows open borders between members meanings that you don't have to regulate but there is a legal need to have the tools to regulate them. Norway and Sweden have that tool they can regulate the flows between them, most of the time they don't because Norway follow the same rules but sometimes they do and it's their discretion, same thing with France and Belgium, a regulated border was put around 2016 in certain areas.
 
In my opinion, the more pressing issue about Brexit is that the government seem yet to decide what it really want from the EU and how it plans to achieve that. They keep arguing with one another while the clock is ticking. The UK is becoming increasingly dependent on this transitional deal and that there's a real risk for the EU to pin every expense to that deal removing the only positive card the UK has left for something that is indeed temporary. After the transitional period is over, the UK will have no card to play and the EU will then dictate any future relationship between the two.
 
rcoobc said:
Rather depends doesn't it. Is the Sweden Norway border hard?
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Trucks need to fill paperwork when crossing. Because of the size of the border there are also unmanned points of crossing where goods are not allowed to be transported through and they are monitored by ANPR. Mobile customs units would then stop suspected traffickers. The biggest smuggling problem between Sweden and Norway is alcohol. I can imagine tobacco and alcohol will also be between Ireland and NI/UK if we were to have even an unmanned "soft" border.

I cannot see it in any way shape or form how Ireland and NI economies can operate on vastly different terms. It isn't viable and quite frankly no one would accept it, Varadkar or the DUP.
 
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