Jose Tactics and Pogba

Icemav

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Michael Owen is being his usual pathetic self but I think everything Hargreaves says is spot on. Whatever you think about Pogba's individual performances there is no doubt forcing this AM to sit in a 2 does not bloody work, unless the opposition is super weak and doesnt press. He talks about the England situation with Lampard-Gerrard asking two incredible AM who liked breaking forwards to sit and hold in a 2. It never worked but they kept trying and trying to shoehorn. You wonder why some of these managers are paid so much money.

At the moment we are essentially playing with one holding mid, Pogba who is in no mans land performing no discernable role especially defensively and building play from deep, and with no box2box attacking mid or regista, with a scattering of random talented attackers. Our midfield/defensive build is terrible compounded by Smalling starting as if this hasnt been obvious for weeks and weeks. Jose is also overcomplicating the Sanchez signing by putting him in Martial and Rashford's position.

I have been very unwilling to criticise the manager but Jose is not looking very impressive at the moment and the worrying thing is he has looked very reactive as opposed to proactive since coming here. We certainly do not have the most balanced squad but we seem to be compoundong the problem. Opposing teams have figured us out..... press press press, especially Smalling. We will hoof it.
 
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It's what we've all been saying. But that's still no excuse for the shit pogba has been putting in the last 2 games. Newcastle was pathetic. All well and good saying he needs a 3 to be at his best, but there's no excuse for playing like complete ass. If he was putting in decent but unspectacular performances, then fine. Move him to bring his best. But he hasn't had that base level either so what's to suggest he would suddenly work harder and play a lot better just because he's moved up?
 
bosnian_red said:
It's what we've all been saying. But that's still no excuse for the shit pogba has been putting in the last 2 games. Newcastle was pathetic. All well and good saying he needs a 3 to be at his best, but there's no excuse for playing like complete ass. If he was putting in decent but unspectacular performances, then fine. Move him to bring his best. But he hasn't had that base level either so what's to suggest he would suddenly work harder and play a lot better just because he's moved up?
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Its a fair point that he has shown little fight, but then again I dont think we signed a fighter. It pains me to type this sort of thing.
 
Icemav said:
Its a fair point that he has shown little fight, but then again I dont think we signed a fighter. It pains me to type this sort of thing.
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I can't say I'm surprised by this, what has he ever had to fight for? When the first real test was put to him he upped and left for Juventus. Then he was practically first choice there, and then he's playing with the likes of Pirlo, Vidal, Dybla, Marchisio etc these kind of elite players and winning back to back Serie A titles. He's been somewhat spoiled to a certain degree, not his fault as that's the situation he found himself in, but it is what it is I guess.
 
Hargreaves actually talking sense for once! I think it's pretty obvious that pogba is an attacking player and you need to let him go forward and do his thing if you want to see a world class performer week in week out. Let's just play Sanchez right wing Natural left wing, Herrera in midfield with matic and pogba at cam.
 
Firstly Pogba has really been affected by this Sanchez move, why I really don't know, is he upset about the fact that he isn't the number 1 choice any more or has he been told to hang back more and defend, what ever the reason he is showing nothing on the pitch. What ever it is, it seems to have had the same effect as the number 9 shirt saga had on Martial last year.
Jose pulling him off two games in a row won't improve matters, not that Jose wasn't justified in doing so seeing how he prances around doing very little, avoiding tackles and letting everything pass him by, really sad to see.
Jose has done his utmost to accommodate Sanchez but with no idea/plan how he really wants to use him. By doing this he has disrupted the little bit of sync we had in attack, in time it should sort itself out, lets hope sooner than later otherwise we will be in a real fight just to get into the top 4.
My greatest concern is that Jose has come here and I am yet to see what he wants to create at Utd, there seems to be no big picture going forward, no real game plan or tactics on how to approach games either. The only constant is his 4-2-3-1 formation and if that doesn't work, no plan B, Fellaini used to be plan B but he has been injured. I am starting to get the feeling he has taken us as far as he can, I can't say that I am seeing any form of progress in this team any more and unless something drastic happens and soon we will see the same thing happen as it did with LvG, the players will keep putting in the performances they are putting in now and things will go downhill again.
Before everyone gets on my back about being so negative, when was the last time our team put in a top performance from the start?
 
Look its been the same issue since day one, Pogba works best in a midfield 3 and always has and Mourinho likes to only play 2, so we have issues.

It really isn't rocket science.
 
I'm not a fan of pundits generally (especially Owen's jumping to Mourinho "ruining" players!), but I think they're right about Pogba. He needs to learn. I like that he's seems a bouyant "character" but I think he needs to start digging in and really working. He can be world class, but showboating in easy games and practising goal celebrations on IG isn't what we signed him back for. What's changed since he was in youth team? He was a game changer there, him and Morrison. I wonder if the move to Italy and influx of cash and praise has gone to his head a bit?
 
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Makes similar points even if i dont agree with everything
 
Tosicsleftpeg said:
Hargreaves actually talking sense for once!
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He talks a lot of sense a lot of the time IMO. He's often very positive about United, but people only pick up on him when he's critical and he's branded as bitter.

I quite like him. Certainly moreso than Scholes. He's just a bit crap at articulating himself when he's put on the spot as a co-commentator. He knows his stuff generally though.
 
I'm not trying to defend Pogba here, but it's very simple, you buy a 89m pounds midfielder, you play him to his strengths. And the last thing Mourinho needs is a feud with Pogba, whenever this team clicked in some capacity it was mainly due to Pogba. So either Jose finds a way to make this thing work and stop being so stubborn, or it will get very ugly and we all know how managers are expandable when it comes to feuds with superstars like Pogba.
 
Hargreaves and Owen are both on point.

We need to stop playing him out of position and then wondering why he can't effect the game in a positive way. The stick he got for the Spurs game was beyond a joke considering how he and Matic were often left outnumbered and half the team went missing and the other half were dog shite. Yet it was him who again had to take all the blame in a big game.

Yeah you can say he needs to suck it up and play out of position, but that's going to get harder and harder if you are constantly lambasted from all corners for not playing like world record signing. Everyone has their breaking point. And this is probably the first time pundits and fans have seriously acknowledged that he has been playing out of position.
 
Owen finally recovered but he made atrocious start saying Pogba haven't learned basics. This guy without learning basics played for Juventus in CL finals and Euro finals, and this is the Juve team that is tactically drilled like no other English club.
 
But was Pogba really "shoehorned" into a DM position v Newcastle? It didn't look like a rigid 4-2-3-1 to me. Lingard was playing with a lot less freedom than he has been recently, and deeper. Almost like an additional midfielder. And Pogba put it less effort than ever.
 
roonster09 said:
Owen finally recovered but he made atrocious start saying Pogba haven't learned basics. This guy without learning basics played for Juventus in CL finals and Euro finals, and this is the Juve team that is tactically drilled like no other English club.
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I think he was referring to the basics of central holding midfield play. Which is somewhat true. But then again not every midfielder can play the role well as even Gerrard struggled back there.
 
Icemav said:
I think he was referring to the basics of central holding midfield play. Which is somewhat true. But then again not every midfielder can play the role well as even Gerrard struggled back there.
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Then Owen's point is even poorer. Why would attack oriented player will master basics of holding midfield play? Did anyone ever say that about Kante? That he never mastered basics of midfielders citing his lack of attacking passes and play?
 
Was Pogba injured or not? He looked injured which begs the question why he was on the pitch to begin with. If he wasn't injured it begs the question why he was continually allowed to stroll about like he didn't have a care in the world.

His attitude (if not injured) contributed to his performance as much as the definition of his role.
 
Revaulx said:
But was Pogba really "shoehorned" into a DM position v Newcastle? It didn't look like a rigid 4-2-3-1 to me. Lingard was playing with a lot less freedom than he has been recently, and deeper. Almost like an additional midfielder. And Pogba put it less effort than ever.
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It was quite obviously a 4-3-3.

I’d quite happily see anyone who suggests we weren’t playing this against Newcastle banned.

Some people clearly need to grow up.
 
roonster09 said:
Then Owen's point is even poorer. Why would attack oriented player will master basics of holding midfield play? Did anyone ever say that about Kante? That he never mastered basics of midfielders citing his lack of attacking passes and play?
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Very fair point. I think however this was the expectation of Mou.
 
And how many league titles did Gerrard win, how many tournaments did England win with Gerrard in the team?
He was an individually talented guy, who could do great things, but how many times did you see him play the 'hollywood ball' instead of keeping it simple for the team?
And Gerrard was far better than Pogba in 'finishing'. Lampard was incomparably better at 'finishing' than Pogba.
If United withdrew an attacker and played Pogba as purely an attacking midfielder, to draw comparisons with other teams, to justify that move, he would have to play that position better than Eriksen and De Bruyne. Quite frankly he couldn't, he doesn't have the brain or particular skill set to do it.
Hargreaves and Owen both alluded to the problem, he is good at all the tasks of a midfielder. The problem is, he is not great at any of them. Add to that his childish petulance and lack of bravery when things get tough and you have a misfit.
Best to admit the situation, and sell on to some rich sucker like Madrid , and use the money to get two really good midfielders who know their job, and let the attackers do theirs'.
 
It’s not just Pogba. It’s how we defend deep in our own half, instead of pressing high up the pitch. We are so slow and boring tbh, our balance is not there either.

Pogba, Mourinho and the team needs to get a grip.
 
NFM said:
And how many league titles did Gerrard win, how many tournaments did England win with Gerrard in the team?
He was an individually talented guy, who could do great things, but how many times did you see him play the 'hollywood ball' instead of keeping it simple for the team?
And Gerrard was far better than Pogba in 'finishing'. Lampard was incomparably better at 'finishing' than Pogba.
If United withdrew an attacker and played Pogba as purely an attacking midfielder, to draw comparisons with other teams, to justify that move, he would have to play that position better than Eriksen and De Bruyne. Quite frankly he couldn't, he doesn't have the brain or particular skill set to do it.
Hargreaves and Owen both alluded to the problem, he is good at all the tasks of a midfielder. The problem is, he is not great at any of them. Add to that his childish petulance and lack of bravery when things get tough and you have a misfit.
Best to admit the situation, and sell on to some rich sucker like Madrid , and use the money to get two really good midfielders who know their job, and let the attackers do theirs'.
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Wow. That woke me up. Very radical but not without merit provided we sign some absolute guns like Savic and Verratti.
 
Cliche Guevara said:
It was quite obviously a 4-3-3.

I’d quite happily see anyone who suggests we weren’t playing this against Newcastle banned.

Some people clearly need to grow up.
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It still doesn’t help. There is no balance with Pogba and Lingard acting as midfielders, it just makes us look clueless on the pitch.
 
NFM said:
And how many league titles did Gerrard win, how many tournaments did England win with Gerrard in the team?
He was an individually talented guy, who could do great things, but how many times did you see him play the 'hollywood ball' instead of keeping it simple for the team?
And Gerrard was far better than Pogba in 'finishing'. Lampard was incomparably better at 'finishing' than Pogba.
If United withdrew an attacker and played Pogba as purely an attacking midfielder, to draw comparisons with other teams, to justify that move, he would have to play that position better than Eriksen and De Bruyne. Quite frankly he couldn't, he doesn't have the brain or particular skill set to do it.
Hargreaves and Owen both alluded to the problem, he is good at all the tasks of a midfielder. The problem is, he is not great at any of them. Add to that his childish petulance and lack of bravery when things get tough and you have a misfit.
Best to admit the situation, and sell on to some rich sucker like Madrid , and use the money to get two really good midfielders who know their job, and let the attackers do theirs'.
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Selling to Real would make them really good though because they have 2 CM who are better than him in many ways and thus, he can add his bit of spice on occasion and they won't suffer when he goes missing. The best option would be to just buy other 'top, top' midfielders and be less reliant on Pogba as he is more luxury. Players like him can be very useful. Its not a case of selling him as it is difficult to even get players of his ability in the 1st place. Either we play Sanchez as support striker and convert Pogba into a deep lying playmaker or we buy an additional CM, play 4-3-3 and bench someone up top.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
It still doesn’t help. There is no balance with Pogba and Lingard acting as midfielders, it just makes us look clueless on the pitch.
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Lets compare to a potential PSG midefield.

Motta (DM) - Verratti (Regista) - Rabiot (B2B)

Matic (DM) - Pogba (AM) - Lingard (AM/Wing)

Pretty clear what the problems are
 
Stacks said:
Selling to Real would make them really good though because they have 2 CM who are better than him in many ways and thus, he can add his bit of spice on occasion and they won't suffer when he goes missing. The best option would be to just buy other 'top, top' midfielders and be less reliant on Pogba as he is more luxury. Players like him can be very useful. Its not a case of selling him as it is difficult to even get players of his ability in the 1st place. Either we play Sanchez as support striker and convert Pogba into a deep lying playmaker or we buy an additional CM, play 4-3-3 and bench someone up top.
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It sounds like a great tactic to recognise the mercurial luxuries he can bring, and therefore not block the signing of top quality CM, DMs, Registas and B2B midfielders. Hoping he develops into one of these roles might be foolhardy at least in the immediate term.
 
Cliche Guevara said:
It was quite obviously a 4-3-3.

I’d quite happily see anyone who suggests we weren’t playing this against Newcastle banned.

Some people clearly need to grow up.
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:lol:

Didn't do any good though. Lingard works hard defensively, but needs to be able to move around freely to be able to contribute to the attack.
 


Pogba has definitely regressed since his Juventus time. He doesn't produce performances like this anymore. If used correctly he can be unplayable. Watching this back now it's hard to believe this is the same player we have now. By contrast KDB played in the same game and had no effect on it. Look at the difference now. He has gone forward under Pep and Pogba has gone backwards under Mourinho. No-one can say coaching doesn't make a difference. It clearly does.
 
Hargreaves is right, our midfield looks fecking awful against any decent side in the Premier league. We do have a solution in Herrera who can release Pogba to do his stuff, but for some reason Mourinho is refusing to change the team.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
It still doesn’t help. There is no balance with Pogba and Lingard acting as midfielders, it just makes us look clueless on the pitch.
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Once again, however, this is shifting the goalposts from Pogba being played in his preferred position to the team dynamics.

Pogba was played where people want him played.
 
abdo99 said:


Pogba has definitely regressed since his Juventus time. He doesn't produce performances like this anymore. If used correctly he can be unplayable. Watching this back now it's hard to believe this is the same player we have now. By contrast KDB played in the same game and had no effect on it. Look at the difference now. He has gone forward under Pep and Pogba has gone backwards under Mourinho. No-one can say coaching doesn't make a difference. It clearly does.
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What did he do there that he wouldn’t be allowed to do at United?

Imagine he had been just ambling about the pitch in that game? That’s more akin to a lot of his performances here.
 
Can't see any reason why Jose doesn't drop Lingard and push Pogba higher up, then have Matic + another CM behind. Sanchez on the right and Martial on the left. It's not rocket science
 
its obvious need to play a midfield three of Carrick-Matic and Pogba to get the best out of him. which means we will have to play a 3 upfront.
 
I reckon this is the point that is going to trigger his melt down. He's doing to go to war with the press and screw the team and results as a result of it.
 
Cliche Guevara said:
What did he do there that he wouldn’t be allowed to do at United?

Imagine he had been just ambling about the pitch in that game? That’s more akin to a lot of his performances here.
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Maybe he had clear tactical instructions and knew his position well in terms of movement? For me all our players out there are asked to do 'their thing' when you watch our performances, so much miss - communication/understanding that it hurts my eyes.

My theory is and as Jose said himself in the past he likes to work with finished articles (those players do not require much guidance when it comes to coaching as they all have the experience needed and good understanding of the game themselves by that time). Jose evaluates them later by installing superior mental strength and will to win that brought him success to date. While, what our young squad requires at this point in time is direction/movements drilling, in other words, actual coaching material rather than 'Manager'.
 
sully1 said:
its obvious need to play a midfield three of Carrick-Matic and Pogba to get the best out of him. which means we will have to play a 3 upfront.
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severe lack of pace and lungs in the defensive part of that mid screen. Carrick is like Matic,in that tackling and winning physical tackles isn't their forte. Their game is based on their excellent positioning, they intercept a lot, nip in win the ball back. Against a mobile mid with runners, they would struggle imo. We've seen in recent weeks v Stoke with Stephen Ireland, Spurs with Eriksen and Newcastle with Shelvey and Ritchie we have issues with runners from mid. Would Carrick have helped, maybe a little but he's getting on. He would certainly help in games v weak teams where they park the bus but against good teams he would struggle. Matic needs help tracking runners, not sure we have anyone, maybe McTominay for now, but it's one issue that really needs addressed in the summer.
 
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