Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[JPRouve]

As a sort of summary of the last arguments, people voted for brexit because of these topics:

- The EU is less democratic than the UK, it's a dictatorship.
- The EU prevents the UK from having exceptional trade deals.
- Fix the housing problem.
- Dodge the migrant crisis.
- Have less immigrants, who are inherently unfit to adapt to western culture.
- Control the borders freely.
- Make your own laws.
- 300m£ per week to the NHS.

If I'm not mistaken that's all the main topics, none of them is correct, half of them have nothing to do with the EU and anyone that had and idea about the EU or the UK or politics would have spotted the lies, which is why you don't use referendums for that type of subjects, not even jurists and political scientists can effectively treat something like that without the help of specialists.

 

[sullydnl]

Who in their right mind would vote for either Cameron or Brexit.

Quite. Tory, Tory, Brexit, Tory is one hell of a voting run for the UK.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

 

[Stanley Road]

I love how Stanley has gone from pro Brexit to "well you voted for Cameron so its all your fault."

I didn't, for the record, so its not.

Not at all, i am just trying to put across the other side otherwise it would be a massive wankfest of agreement

It still is the fault of british voters and i want them to admit it, no-one has done yet.

 

[marktan]

To have full access to the service market, you need to be full member of the EU and EUCU. It's not ludicrous, it has always been like that.

Whilst that's true, that wasn't my point at all. Brexit is the first time something like this has happened so old conventions could could have some flexibility if the right incentives are offered. My point was agreeing to a favourable deal of no tariffs for goods for the EU without a good deal on financial services is dumb. My impression from the first stage of negotiations were that the EU offered no flexibility, which essentially led to May just agreeing everything they wanted (sensible imo), and whilst the EU's entitled to offer what they want I hope there is some flexibility because financial services are very important to the UK long-term (at least in my opinion as someone with a lot of friends working in that sector).

 

[Stanley Road]

Who in their right mind would vote for either Cameron or Brexit.

Pauls family and friends voted for cameroon cos they didnt think anyone would vote brexit. How crazy is that?

 

[Fully Fledged]

Pauls family and friends voted for cameroon cos they didnt think anyone would vote brexit. How crazy is that?

I have members of my family that I love but could not agree with their political views. I won't talk politics with them because it would only cause arguments.

 

[Sweet Square]

Anyone who voted for Cameron in 2015 was also pretty much voting to leave the EU.

 

[Stanley Road]

Anyone who voted for Cameron in 2015 was also pretty much voting to leave the EU.

At last

 

[JPRouve]

Whilst that's true, that wasn't my point at all. Brexit is the first time something like this has happened so old conventions could could have some flexibility if the right incentives are offered. My point was agreeing to a favourable deal of no tariffs for goods for the EU without a good deal on financial services is dumb. My impression from the first stage of negotiations were that the EU offered no flexibility, which essentially led to May just agreeing everything they wanted (sensible imo), and whilst the EU's entitled to offer what they want I hope there is some flexibility because financial services are very important to the UK long-term (at least in my opinion as someone with a lot of friends working in that sector).

I don't think you understand the subject here and what you wrote is just senseless. Financial services are part of the full single market, if you are not part of it you don't have access to it, it's not negotiable and that's the very thing that the UK unilaterally decided to leave. The EU asked the UK what they wanted to do, the UK answered that they wanted to leave the EUCU and the SM, which means that they won't have access to all the EU markets.

 

[sun_tzu]

I don't think you understand the subject here and what you wrote is just senseless. Financial services are part of the full single market, if you are not part of it you don't have access to it, it's not negotiable and that's the very thing that the UK unilaterally decided to leave. The EU asked the UK what they wanted to do, the UK answered that they wanted to leave the EUCU and the SM, which means that they won't have access to all the EU markets.

It's been clear for a long time it's either take a Norway type deal and keep have services included...but also the obligations that come with that
Or take a Canada type deal with goods only
It's rediculus that we are so far into a negotiation and frankly we have made no progress

 

[Stanley Road]

Whilst that's true, that wasn't my point at all. Brexit is the first time something like this has happened so old conventions could could have some flexibility if the right incentives are offered. My point was agreeing to a favourable deal of no tariffs for goods for the EU without a good deal on financial services is dumb. My impression from the first stage of negotiations were that the EU offered no flexibility, which essentially led to May just agreeing everything they wanted (sensible imo), and whilst the EU's entitled to offer what they want I hope there is some flexibility because financial services are very important to the UK long-term (at least in my opinion as someone with a lot of friends working in that sector).

I thought i heard there were 6tr of loans to the eu from the city of london, what would happen to those loans?

 

[marktan]

I don't think you understand the subject here and what you wrote is just senseless. Financial services are part of the full single market, if you are not part of it you don't have access to it, it's not negotiable and that's the very thing that the UK unilaterally decided to leave. The EU asked the UK what they wanted to do, the UK answered that they wanted to leave the EUCU and the SM, which means that they won't have access to all the EU markets.

And your whole post is addressed in my previous post. This is why I avoid this thread, logic and reason seems to go out the window when it comes to Brexit. Don't quote me.

 

[JPRouve]

And your whole post is addressed in my previous post. This is why I avoid this thread, logic and reason seems to go out the window when it comes to Brexit. Don't quote me.

I'm going to quote you because you are the one not using logic. Brexit means that you are an outsider which is absolutely not new, that's a complete fallacy to pretend that Brexit is special when it comes to the future FTA, you are no different to Canada, the US, Turkey, Norway or South Korea. You are outsiders and will be treated like outsiders because that's the decision that you made.

On that particular point, it's quite simple. The EU will not give the perks of full membership to a country that isn't a full member, it stops and starts there.

 

[marktan]

I'm going to quote you because you are the one not using logic. Brexit means that you are an outsider which is absolutely not new, that's a complete fallacy to pretend that Brexit is special when it comes to the future FTA, you are no different to Canada, the US, Turkey, Norway or South Korea. You are outsiders and will be treated like outsiders because that's the decision that you made.

On that particular point, it's quite simple. The EU will not give the perks of full membership to a country that isn't a full member, it stops and starts there.

Nothing is simple. It's only simple in your mind because you refuse to listen to arguments and simply reply with 'this is how it is, and will be, because the guidelines say so'. Which imo just comes up as a thinly veiled way of you saying that you want things to happen to the benefit of the EU (because you're European), purely because we're the ones leaving. Your bias comes across.

My point, as you've missed twice now, was simply this: We net import £100b a year in goods, we export £15-20b a year in services - we have leverage if they want free trade on goods but on services. Use that leverage. It's a negotiation. That's it. That's my point. Please don't quote me again if you're not going to actually reply to that and simply list down what this situation supposedly means. I get that Brexit is a bad thing, I've thought that since the start, I don't need telling again.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Nothing is simple. It's only simple in your mind because you refuse to listen to arguments and simply reply with 'this is how it is, and will be, because the guidelines say so'. Which imo just comes up as a thinly veiled way of you saying that you want things to happen to the benefit of the EU (because you're European), purely because we're the ones leaving. Your bias comes across.

My point, as you've missed twice now, was simply this: We net import £100b a year in goods, we export £15-20b a year in services - we have leverage if they want free trade on goods but on services. Use that leverage. It's a negotiation. That's it. That's my point. Please don't quote me again if you're not going to actually reply to that and simply list down what this situation supposedly means. I get that Brexit is a bad thing, I've thought that since the start, I don't need telling again.

As was pointed out hundreds of times before the referendum and thousands of times since, the UK have decided to leave the EU Customs Union and the Single Market - this cancelled their right to have a deal on financial services - there is no leverage whatsoever, there is no negotiation , if the UK leaves those institutions that is what is going to happen - the EU is not going to change the rules. The Uk decided to leave and there are massive consequences of that, if they wanted to maintain it they should not have left. They can't just have the bits they like.

 

[JPRouve]

Nothing is simple. It's only simple in your mind because you refuse to listen to arguments and simply reply with 'this is how it is, and will be, because the guidelines say so'. Which imo just comes up as a thinly veiled way of you saying that you want things to happen to the benefit of the EU (because you're European), purely because we're the ones leaving. Your bias comes across.

My point, as you've missed twice now, was simply this: We net import £100b a year in goods, we export £15-20b a year in services - we have leverage if they want free trade on goods but on services. Use that leverage. It's a negotiation. That's it. That's my point. Please don't quote me again if you're not going to actually reply to that and simply list down what this situation supposedly means. I get that Brexit is a bad thing, I've thought that since the start, I don't need telling again.

It's not thinly veiled, any deal will have to benefit the EU, that's the all point of the EU. And bear in mind that more than 40% of the UK's export go to the EU while around 16% of the EU exports go to the UK, who do you think has leverage? Also the financial industry is something that EU members will partially and gladly take away from the UK, it is worth money and there is little reason to give it to the UK.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Pauls family and friends voted for cameroon cos they didnt think anyone would vote brexit. How crazy is that?

Most of my friends always voted Tory, most of my family also voted Tory in 2015 & 2017 whereas until 2015 they always voted Labour, how crazy is that.

 

[Stanley Road]

As was pointed out hundreds of times before the referendum and thousands of times since, the UK have decided to leave the EU Customs Union and the Single Market - this cancelled their right to have a deal on financial services - there is no leverage whatsoever, there is no negotiation , if the UK leaves those institutions that is what is going to happen - the EU is not going to change the rules. The Uk decided to leave and there are massive consequences of that, if they wanted to maintain it they should not have left. They can't just have the bits they like.

So what happens to those loans? Curious

 

[Stanley Road]

Most of my friends always voted Tory, most of my family also voted Tory in 2015 & 2017 whereas until 2015 they always voted Labour, how crazy is that.

They wanted a ref obviously, they must be happy with brexit

 

[Abizzz]

It doesn't fail in any way how often you keep saying it, you are in this shit because you voted( in an election )for a party that offered you the ref and now that same party has been voted in to deliver and I'm the stupid one, epic train of thought.

I did not and would never vote tory. For the record i'm a US-German dual citizen so don't get a vote at all.

@marktan The financial services ship sailed about 12 months ago. It's all about damage limitation from this point on.

 

[devilish]

Whilst that's true, that wasn't my point at all. Brexit is the first time something like this has happened so old conventions could could have some flexibility if the right incentives are offered. My point was agreeing to a favourable deal of no tariffs for goods for the EU without a good deal on financial services is dumb. My impression from the first stage of negotiations were that the EU offered no flexibility, which essentially led to May just agreeing everything they wanted (sensible imo), and whilst the EU's entitled to offer what they want I hope there is some flexibility because financial services are very important to the UK long-term (at least in my opinion as someone with a lot of friends working in that sector).

The UK made flexibility impossible by opting out of the single market, FOM, the custom union (or any custom union) prior to even discussing it. I understand the government need to satisfy the will of the people. However the will of the people on the other side is for the eu not to put our interest first and foremost.

There are no equal partners. There is a small market and a big market with the latter exerting its power to carve the better deal. That is how trade deals work. Just wait when you start dealing with US. Oh wait you already had a taste with open skies

 

[Paul the Wolf]

They wanted a ref obviously, they must be happy with brexit

Yes obviously, don't appear too happy at the moment though, shame, although like FF I don't discuss it with them any more.

 

[devilish]

Nothing is simple. It's only simple in your mind because you refuse to listen to arguments and simply reply with 'this is how it is, and will be, because the guidelines say so'. Which imo just comes up as a thinly veiled way of you saying that you want things to happen to the benefit of the EU (because you're European), purely because we're the ones leaving. Your bias comes across.

My point, as you've missed twice now, was simply this: We net import £100b a year in goods, we export £15-20b a year in services - we have leverage if they want free trade on goods but on services. Use that leverage. It's a negotiation. That's it. That's my point. Please don't quote me again if you're not going to actually reply to that and simply list down what this situation supposedly means. I get that Brexit is a bad thing, I've thought that since the start, I don't need telling again.

Don't you think if the UK had real leverage then it wouldn't be begging for a deal in the way it's doing? Instead its backpaddling on almost everything

I am not denying that brexit won't hurt the EU. However, its seems pretty obvious whose set to be the biggest loser here

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So what happens to those loans? Curious

What loans, don't have any loans (adopting the UK strategy here)

 

[Steven Seagull]

Find Bettels comments today somewhat disconcerting. Striking fear into other EU countries with thinly veiled threats about what would happen to people if they started contemplating life outside the EU.

 

[JPRouve]

Find Bettels comments today somewhat disconcerting. Striking fear into other EU countries with thinly veiled threats about what would happen to people if they started contemplating life outside the EU.

Which part, I think I missed it?

 

[Abizzz]

I thought i heard there were 6tr of loans to the eu from the city of london, what would happen to those loans?

What loans, don't have any loans (adopting the UK strategy here)

They would become very hard to enforce if the UK leave without an agreement.

 

[JPRouve]

They would become very hard to enforce if the UK leave without an agreement.

I could make a big mistake but isn't the biggest part through, the European investment bank? For which the UK(Bank of England) are shareholders. If I'm not mistaken, the EU has to buy the UK out and it's part of the financial settlement.

 

[Stanley Road]

I could make a big mistake but isn't the biggest part through, the European investment bank? For which the UK(Bank of England) are shareholders. If I'm not mistaken, the EU has to buy the UK out and it's part of the financial settlement.

Ouch, that would be costly

 

[JPRouve]

Ouch, that would be costly

Again I could be wrong but that's partially why you heard about the UK +100bn to 40bn divorce bill, a part of the difference is in this type of things.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Not at all, i am just trying to put across the other side otherwise it would be a massive wankfest of agreement

It still is the fault of british voters and i want them to admit it, no-one has done yet.

Not all British voters stanley. Only 36.9% of voters actually.

You are expecting the left leaning caf to admit voting Tory? Obfuscation.

 

[Stanley Road]

Not all British voters stanley. Only 36.9% of voters actually.

You are expecting the left leaning caf to admit voting Tory? Obfuscation.

Paul would have voted for cameron, he said so in this very thread yet is the most vocal remainer. I dont get that and i dont believe he is alone. Marching is another.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Paul would have voted for cameron, he said so in this very thread yet is the most vocal remainer. I dont get that and i dont believe he is alone. Marching is another.

I cant speak for those two but it appears you are a Brexiter and this mess is your fault. Maybe you will be man enough to admit that one day.

 

[JPRouve]

But werent both sides playing the brexit card? If I'm not mistaken, in the UK you vote for your MP and he votes for his leader, the labour leader, Corbin, is anti EU. There was no safe vote for remainers.

 

[Stanley Road]

I cant speak for those two but it appears you are a Brexiter and this mess is your fault. Maybe you will be man enough to admit that one day.

Yes its all my fault. Unable to vote in any country i take full responsibility.

 

[Stanley Road]

But werent both sides playing the brexit card? If I'm not mistaken, in the UK you vote for your MP and he votes for his leader, the labour leader, Corbin, is anti EU. There was no safe vote for remainers.

There was. And there was only one guy offering an in out ref. The uk chose him but its all my fault apparently.

 

[JPRouve]

There was. And there was only one guy offering an in out ref. The uk chose him but its all my fault apparently.

What was the alternative?

 

[Stanley Road]

What was the alternative?

Anyone but Cameron

 

[JPRouve]

Anyone but Cameron

But that's not how the UK system work, ou don't really have a say on who is your PM. They had the choice between Tory and Labour, both had a significant part of eurosceptics which has been demonstrated by labour's attitude since.