Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
marktan said:
Well 'moaning' is really not true at all nor is the lack of anti-UK sentiment.

4 of you replied to my post being adamant that the rules wouldn't be changed on financial services, which would usually be obvious, but the sole point I made when entering this thread was perhaps try and use the goods trade balance as leverage. Anyhow, agreeing with you guys that maybe nothing could be done, I replied saying personally I wouldn't mind remaining in the SM/CU - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22263778

You then made the point that we'd be worse off leaving the single market, and that this was wrongly dismissed as scare mongering, I replied simply saying that it wasn't that simple because clearly voters had other issues on their minds aside from the economic positives/negatives. You then replied going into a tangent about immigration & sovereignity with various different arguments, but I didn't reply because the examples of sovereignty and immigration were simply to illustrate other issues voters could've cared about, not because I wanted to go in-depth and discuss those two issues. I mean I could, but it's been done before and it's not relevant to the current discussion (again simply used to illustrate that voters cared about various issues, rightly or wrongly). https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22264376

Fcb then came into this thread saying that the City is toxic and how he hope the UK fades, I replied explaining how Investment Banking is useful (which he then laughed off). Yes, I got a bit annoyed in my second paragraph, but it's just a bit annoying when you're the sole opinion on one side in a thread and you're receiving multiple replies from everyone else in this thread. And yes the anti-UK sentiment did annoy me
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22265102

You then decided to reply to my reply to him saying I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and living in La La Land. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22265156

So yeah, to recap, simply came in this thread to make a point about using trade balance as leverage, received replies from you guys, partially agreed with you, then fcb came into this thread and made remarks about wanting the UK to fail and the City to wither etc, which is the impression you get extends to most EU-based posters in this thread (though they're more subtle about it). So I simply called you guys out on it, and we're here now. I guess my fault for taking issue with anti-UK sentiment, I should've expected it when entering this thread. I'll refrain next time as the back and forth really isn't worth anyone's time (as illustrated by how long this post is lol).
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I agreed with you that the CU/SM was the solution for a financial services deal (and the Irish border) but it's the UK government who has ruled this out. The EU have stated nth times that they are not changing the rules which would obviously be suicidal anyway.

At the moment the UK are one of the EU team, however, what FCB was getting at was that once the UK has left the EU they become a rival competitor so naturally if you're living in the UK you want the UK to do better and if you're living in the EU you want the countries in the EU to prosper and thus when the UK does leave, France gaining out of the UK's loss will be more beneficial to myself even if in a very modest way.

The threat of damage to the UK is 7 times that of the EU, it's not an opinion , been through this numerous times before with facts.

What all of us would prefer is that the UK remain in the EU for the benefit of all of us.
 
devilish said:
That's fair enough. What many on the continent can't understand is why the UK would leave this horrible institution and yet still expect if not demand to be as close to it as possible. That does stinks of opportunism and cherry picking
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Money. The end
Abizzz said:
Inform yourself then. The British public have been spoonfed this information the past 3 years. You really think trading in the transperancy of the EU for the transperancy of the 1922 committee improves things?
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So anti EU sentiment only came about 3 years ago? People have been raising these issues for 20+ years and they were only thrust into the spotlight of our pathetic media recently. Unless you think reading the BBC app on your phone means you’re getting an unbiased view
 
JPRouve said:
As far as I can tell he said that he wanted a Brexit without cherry picking and that doesn't give the impression that being outside is more interesting than being inside. And was linked to this statement too, “We cannot grant the rights of Norway with the obligations of Canada. There’s no prospect of exclusive access to the Single Market."

Maybe you are talking about something else, otherwise your post is at the very least dishonest in his tone.
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It’s always the same though. The same people speaking about how they will carry on with the project no matter the result of the Italian election. Where is the introspection? The arrogance is astounding
 
Steven Seagull said:
So anti EU sentiment only came about 3 years ago?
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That is not what I said. Do you doubt that the coverage about the EU became more intense/frequent in said time period?
Steven Seagull said:
People have been raising these issues for 20+ years and they were only thrust into the spotlight of our pathetic media recently. Unless you think reading the BBC app on your phone means you’re getting an unbiased view
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Again, do you honestly believe the UK is more transparent than the EU? There are obviously legitimate problems with the EU (which should be addressed, the sooner the better). It wasn't those that have been raised for 20 years and thrust in the spotlight though, those were and are largely fabrications.
 
Steven Seagull said:
It’s always the same though. The same people speaking about how they will carry on with the project no matter the result of the Italian election. Where is the introspection? The arrogance is astounding
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The only thing the eu can be blamed about that is their reluctance in helping Italy regarding the immigration problem. Basically the EU just throw some money at the problem and expect italy to do the rest

Thats not completely its fault though. When germany suggested a solid burden sharing mechanism were every country got his share all hell went loose. Even the UK was not too happy about it.

So unless you suggest pushback to a war torn country or the removal of the dublin treaty which many northern European countries cling to for protection than there is very little the EU can do to help italy.

May i remind you that m5s and la lega had both changed their stance against the EU for obvious reason
 
Steven Seagull said:
Money. The end
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Well if money talks then you can't really blame the eu for putting its own interest ahead of that of the UK especially considering the multiple red lines the UK had imposed in such discussions
 
marktan said:
Well 'moaning' is really not true at all nor is the lack of anti-UK sentiment.

4 of you replied to my post being adamant that the rules wouldn't be changed on financial services, which would usually be obvious, but the sole point I made when entering this thread was perhaps try and use the goods trade balance as leverage. Anyhow, agreeing with you guys that maybe nothing could be done, I replied saying personally I wouldn't mind remaining in the SM/CU - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22263778

You then made the point that we'd be worse off leaving the single market, and that this was wrongly dismissed as scare mongering, I replied simply saying that it wasn't that simple because clearly voters had other issues on their minds aside from the economic positives/negatives. You then replied going into a tangent about immigration & sovereignity with various different arguments, but I didn't reply because the examples of sovereignty and immigration were simply to illustrate other issues voters could've cared about, not because I wanted to go in-depth and discuss those two issues. I mean I could, but it's been done before and it's not relevant to the current discussion (again simply used to illustrate that voters cared about various issues, rightly or wrongly). https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22264376

Fcb then came into this thread saying that the City is toxic and how he hope the UK fades, I replied explaining how Investment Banking is useful (which he then laughed off). Yes, I got a bit annoyed in my second paragraph, but it's just a bit annoying when you're the sole opinion on one side in a thread and you're receiving multiple replies from everyone else in this thread. And yes the anti-UK sentiment did annoy me
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22265102

You then decided to reply to my reply to him saying I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and living in La La Land. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22265156

So yeah, to recap, simply came in this thread to make a point about using trade balance as leverage, received replies from you guys, partially agreed with you, then fcb came into this thread and made remarks about wanting the UK to fail and the City to wither etc, which is the impression you get extends to most EU-based posters in this thread (though they're more subtle about it). So I simply called you guys out on it, and we're here now. I guess my fault for taking issue with anti-UK sentiment, I should've expected it when entering this thread. I'll refrain next time as the back and forth really isn't worth anyone's time (as illustrated by how long this post is lol).
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I don't want the city to wither away. However it does seem unavoidable considering the UK's multiple red lines. (Leaving the EU, no customs union, no access to the single market, no FOM)

Basically if you shoot at your leg multiple times and then you refuse to go to hospital until it turned black can you really blame the doctor for losing it?
 
Ffs, every time I start warming to Corbyn he lets me down over Brexit again. I get that he isn’t an EU fan, but his party predominantly is.
 
marktan said:
Well 'moaning' is really not true at all nor is the lack of anti-UK sentiment.

4 of you replied to my post being adamant that the rules wouldn't be changed on financial services, which would usually be obvious, but the sole point I made when entering this thread was perhaps try and use the goods trade balance as leverage. Anyhow, agreeing with you guys that maybe nothing could be done, I replied saying personally I wouldn't mind remaining in the SM/CU - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22263778

You then made the point that we'd be worse off leaving the single market, and that this was wrongly dismissed as scare mongering, I replied simply saying that it wasn't that simple because clearly voters had other issues on their minds aside from the economic positives/negatives. You then replied going into a tangent about immigration & sovereignity with various different arguments, but I didn't reply because the examples of sovereignty and immigration were simply to illustrate other issues voters could've cared about, not because I wanted to go in-depth and discuss those two issues. I mean I could, but it's been done before and it's not relevant to the current discussion (again simply used to illustrate that voters cared about various issues, rightly or wrongly). https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22264376

Fcb then came into this thread saying that the City is toxic and how he hope the UK fades, I replied explaining how Investment Banking is useful (which he then laughed off). Yes, I got a bit annoyed in my second paragraph, but it's just a bit annoying when you're the sole opinion on one side in a thread and you're receiving multiple replies from everyone else in this thread. And yes the anti-UK sentiment did annoy me
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22265102

You then decided to reply to my reply to him saying I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and living in La La Land. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/har...-winning-thread.418898/page-563#post-22265156

So yeah, to recap, simply came in this thread to make a point about using trade balance as leverage, received replies from you guys, partially agreed with you, then fcb came into this thread and made remarks about wanting the UK to fail and the City to wither etc, which is the impression you get extends to most EU-based posters in this thread (though they're more subtle about it). So I simply called you guys out on it, and we're here now. I guess my fault for taking issue with anti-UK sentiment, I should've expected it when entering this thread. I'll refrain next time as the back and forth really isn't worth anyone's time (as illustrated by how long this post is lol).
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I never said I wanted the UK to fail. I ... quite simply don’t care all that much and I do think that Brexit was a stupid decision for everyone. If Britiain does well, hurray as well. Although I don’t see any way this is ending well, but that doesn‘t matter. I then just simply continued by saying that banking regulation, in return killing parts of the City, would be at least something beneficial the EU might get out of it as everyone apart from the UK wanted more regulation for years. Seeing as what seem to be the red lines for the UK gouvernment, there’s no, absolutely no reason to give you access to our financial markets. Your, and not only your gouverments position but yours personally, point of view is that you should get a trade deal and access for your financial services without giving anything in return. Quite frankly, that’s just an expectation I have to wonder about. Seeing what you think investment banking is, that might explain it a bit at least.
 
Kentonio said:
Ffs, every time I start warming to Corbyn he lets me down over Brexit again. I get that he isn’t an EU fan, but his party predominantly is.
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In terms of the UK relationship with the EU, he's no different to the likes of May, Bojo and co. He thinks that the EU will allow him to cherry pick if he smiles and ask nicely
 
Kentonio said:
Ffs, every time I start warming to Corbyn he lets me down over Brexit again. I get that he isn’t an EU fan, but his party predominantly is.
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It's been obvious since well before the referendum that he's quite happy to leave the EU.
He has his fair share of blame why Leave won the referendum.
Apart from anything else he wants to nationalise everything.
 
Seems fairly unequivocal that he's saying the end of free movement is a good thing.
 
devilish said:
In terms of the UK relationship with the EU, he's no different to the likes of May, Bojo and co. He thinks that the EU will allow him to cherry pick if he smiles and ask nicely
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In some ways he's worse. He wants to stay in the customs union because he's a protectionist like Trump

He has no interest in free trade outside of Europe because it could cost manufacturing jobs
Paul the Wolf said:
It's been obvious since well before the referendum that he's quite happy to leave the EU.
He has his fair share of blame why Leave won the referendum.
Apart from anything else he wants to nationalise everything.
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The eu referendum really was a series of strange events.

2010 - Labour hold a leadership election. Blairite David Milliband is expected to win, instead his brother Ed chooses to run against him and somehow wins with the trade union backing.

2015 - its general election time. A hung parliament is expected, instead the tories somehow win a slight majority as Ed Milliband proves to be hugely unpopular

2016 - Cameron fulfills his promise to hold a referendum on the European Union membership. The new Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn stays mostly quiet on the subject, as he's traditionally eurosceptic whilst being head of a pro-europe party. Cameron fails achieve meaningful concessions during negotiations, meaning he is easily dismissed. Remain is expected to win, but Leave somehow pips it.

2017 - Theresa May holds an election seeking an increased majority to get through the tough EU negotiations. Suddenly Labour make a comeback following the release of Corbyns socialist manifesto. A coalition of the left is looking like the most likely option following the exit polls. Somehow Ruth Davidson's Scottish Tories the 13 seats compared to Corbyns 7 as the two Social Democratic parties split the vote. The tories form a partnership with the DUP and stay in power

And here we are
 
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rcoobc said:
In some ways he's worse. He wants to stay in the customs union because he's a protectionist like Trump

He has no interest in free trade outside of Europe because it could cost manufacturing jobs


The eu referendum really was a series of strange events.

2010 - Labour hold a leadership election. Blairite David Milliband is expected to win, instead his brother Ed chooses to run against him and somehow wins with the trade union backing.

2015 - its general election time. A hung parliament is expected, instead the tories somehow win a slight majority as Ed Milliband proves to be hugely unpopular

2016 - Cameron fulfills his promise to hold a referendum on the European Union membership. Remain is expected to win, but Leave somehow pips it.

2017 - Theresa May holds an election seeking an increased majority to get through the tough EU negotiations. Suddenly Labour make a comeback following the release of Corbyns socialist manifesto. A coalition of the left is looking like the most likely option following the exit polls. Somehow Ruth Davidson's Scottish Tories the 13 seats compared to Corbyns 7 as the two Social Democratic parties split the vote. The tories form a partnership with the DUP and stay in power

And here we are
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Yes, I've said all along that if Labour had a different leader things could have turned out differently. Yes the hard Labour voters may like Corbyn but the floating voter who determine the outcome of votes seem to dislike him.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Yes, I've said all along that if Labour had a different leader things could have turned out differently. Yes the hard Labour voters may like Corbyn but the floating voter who determine the outcome of votes seem to dislike him.
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The SPD says hi

 
Paul the Wolf said:
How can you relate Germany to the UK, the UK is basically a two party country and Corbyn's opposition is May, Johnson et al , not exactly heavyweight opponents.
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Ok another example then - everybody racist grandpa is president of the united states. My point being the only reason Labour are the biggest social democratic party in Europe and got 40% in the election last year is because there was a chance to elected a far left leader and to move the party more left wards(i.e. nationalise everything).

If that haven't of happened and someone like Liz Kendall or David Milland have been leader instead then the party would mostly likely be in the shits like every other social democratic party in Europe and the Dems in the US(Although they are starting to make something of a comeback).
 
Sweet Square said:
Ok another example then - everybody racist grandpa is president of the united states. My point being the only reason Labour are the biggest social democratic party in Europe and got 40% in the election last year is because there was a chance to elected a far left leader and to move the party more left wards(i.e. nationalise everything).

If that haven't of happened and someone like Liz Kendall or David Milland have been leader instead then the party would mostly likely be in the shits like every other social democratic party in Europe and the Dems in the US(Although they are starting to make something of a comeback).
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I do like Corbyn but his rhetoric on the EU has been horrendously vague and undefined, in an attempt to placate hard Leavers and staunch Remainers who vote for the party. Eventually (like the Tories) he's going to have to commit to one or the other and come out with some stuff on Brexit that goes beyond mere meaningless soundbites like he's peddling at the moment.
 
Sweet Square said:
The SPD says hi

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The UK, right now and historically, is much more similar to the US than Germany

We've got two parties, one that represents the spectrum from the left to the centre, and the other than represents the spectrum from the right to the centre.

The majority of voters are in the centre, but the majority of party members are at the two extremes, right and left.

So you've got Corbyn/Sanders being voted in by the left (yes Sanders didn't win, but let's ignore that for a second), and Trump/May being voted in by the right (Yes May wasn't really voted in, but her policies are being dictated by the right of the party, and as we know May has no personality of her own).

In previous years, both parties appeared at times to have little between them. Right now, that hasn't been less true since the 80's.

By the vast majority of voters exist in the centre. For example:

Most americans want more gun control. source

Most americans want legal status for dreamers. source

Most Brits think the EU result should be respected. source

The super vast majority of brits think that Eu citizens should be allowed to stay after Brexit. source.

When the two main parties move to the sides, there is a huge central section to get votes from. David Milliband could have one at least one of the last two elections
 
The economy is doing well.
I fear he's going to win a second term and will be proven this November.
 
Sweet Square said:
I think the quote your looking for is

"Preventing employers being able to import cheap agency labour, to undercut existing pay and conditions in the name of free market orthodoxy.

This does actually happen.
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Yes, it's being interpreted incorrectly but the usual suspects, maybe this sounds better

"Encouraging employers to import cheap agency labour, to undercut existing pay and conditions in the name of free market orthodoxy."
 
Sweet Square said:
Ok another example then - everybody racist grandpa is president of the united states. My point being the only reason Labour are the biggest social democratic party in Europe and got 40% in the election last year is because there was a chance to elected a far left leader and to move the party more left wards(i.e. nationalise everything).

If that haven't of happened and someone like Liz Kendall or David Milland have been leader instead then the party would mostly likely be in the shits like every other social democratic party in Europe and the Dems in the US(Although they are starting to make something of a comeback).
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I don't necessarily disagree with you, like in France the Socialists have plummeted into disaster but they're competing with Mélenchon, Macron and even Le Pen where parts of their vote has disappeared. The Labour Party, especially in England have recovered their UKIP voters which is disintegrating otherwise voters mainly switching between Tory and Labour.

It's more like the US where if Trump loses the confidence of the voters it will swing towards the Dems as you say. Corbyn has almost an open goal but seems to be hoping that the Tories score an own goal rather than take advantage. Not impressed by him at all and that is nothing to do with political preference.
 
Cheesy said:
I do like Corbyn but his rhetoric on the EU has been horrendously vague and undefined, in an attempt to placate hard Leavers and staunch Remainers who vote for the party. Eventually (like the Tories) he's going to have to commit to one or the other and come out with some stuff on Brexit that goes beyond mere meaningless soundbites like he's peddling at the moment.
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Oh completely agree but he's literally the best option the party has. The alternative would have been someone from the soft left arguing the UK shouldn't be leaving at all, which might make some in here happy but would destroy the party.

rcoobc said:
The UK, right now and historically, is much more similar to the US than Germany

We've got two parties, one that represents the spectrum from the left to the centre, and the other than represents the spectrum from the right to the centre.

The majority of voters are in the centre, but the majority of party members are at the two extremes, right and left.

So you've got Corbyn/Sanders being voted in by the left (yes Sanders didn't win, but let's ignore that for a second), and Trump/May being voted in by the right (Yes May wasn't really voted in, but her policies are being dictated by the right of the party, and as we know May has no personality of her own).

In previous years, both parties appeared at times to have little between them. Right now, that hasn't been less true since the 80's.

By the vast majority of voters exist in the centre.
When the two main parties move to the sides, there is a huge central section to get votes from.
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I would disagree with you on most voters being in the ''centre'', most people will say they are but then when ask on certain polices they will actually quite far left or right. Nationalisation being a good example , most people in the UK are favour but they would'nt called themselves socialists even if they are nationalising almost everything in sight.

rcoobc said:
When the two main parties move to the sides, there is a huge central section to get votes from.
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I don't think there is. The Remain case was pretty full of people from the political centre - everyone from Cameron wing of the tories, most of the Labour Party, big business and yet it lost to quite small far right movement(I think the same can be said about Trumps win as well). And then in the following election both parties have moved from the centre and had some of their best results in years.


rcoobc said:
David Milliband could have one at least one of the last two elections
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But I would say recent political events points towards the opposite. Across the west people with similar politics to David Milliand have been losing elections(Milland thought Corbyn was far to left wing to doing anything politically - he turned out to be completely wrong). The mass membership, momentum(Which has over 30,000 members)the online campaign which was vital to fighting back against the national newspapers(The paper who have treated David the same way they treated his brother), the popular manifesto, the support from the unions, all of this was only possible with a far left leader.


Paul the Wolf said:
I don't necessarily disagree with you, like in France the Socialists have plummeted into disaster but they're competing with Mélenchon, Macron and even Le Pen where parts of their vote has disappeared. The Labour Party, especially in England have recovered their UKIP voters which is disintegrating otherwise voters mainly switching between Tory and Labour.

It's more like the US where if Trump loses the confidence of the voters it will swing towards the Dems as you say. Corbyn has almost an open goal but seems to be hoping that the Tories score an own goal rather than take advantage. Not impressed by him at all and that is nothing to do with political preference.
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Yeah Labour haven't been great when talking about Brexit but I'm not sure what they could possible do. The voter base they need to hold onto is so incredibly fragile that disappearing is at the moment the best outcome.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah Labour haven't been great when talking about Brexit but I'm not sure what they could possible do. The voter base they need to hold onto is so incredibly fragile that disappearing is at the moment the best outcome.
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Yes they are fragile. I've watched him quite a few times on PMQ and not just on Brexit but on other topics he seems incapable of pressing home an advantage even when his opponent is as weak as May. Against more formidable opponents how would he fare then?
 
Sweet Square said:
I would disagree with you on most voters being in the ''centre'', most people will say they are but then when ask on certain polices they will actually quite far left or right. Nationalisation being a good example , most people in the UK are favour but they would'nt called themselves socialists even if they are nationalising almost everything in sight.
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Well exactly. There is much broader agreement than the parties make out.
But I would say recent political events points towards the opposite. Across the west people with similar politics to David Milliand have been losing elections(Milland thought Corbyn was far to left wing to doing anything politically - he turned out to be completely wrong). The mass membership, momentum(Which has over 30,000 members)the online campaign which was vital to fighting back against the national newspapers(The paper who have treated David the same way they treated his brother), the popular manifesto, the support from the unions, all of this was only possible with a far left leader.
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And yet Corbyn did not win the 2017 general election. He is not prime minister. He may very well win in 2022, but that would largely be because of continuous and severe self inflicted wounds by the conservative party, and because he may well be running against his antithesis in Jacob Rees Mogg

One area where Corbyn did do well, is unifying leavers and remainers on the left. Partly that's because he's just kept quiet on what he wants. His manifesto, yes, was a breath of fresh air, it was positive, forward thinking, socialist, nationalist, and more. It's a manifesto from someone who has been dreaming of what they'd do, if they ever got the chance, for a long time. But there is no reason someone more centralist couldn't have also come out with populist nationalist policies in some areas.

In fact, the most important issue that people are voting on, whether they realise it or not, is the economy. It's the economy stupid! You've got Corbyn promising to tax and spend to help the poor, May saying there is no magic money tree, Trump promising to save american jobs, Johnson hoping to inject £350m a week into the NHS, Sanders promising to sort out healthcare, and so on.

Corbyn's manifesto was popular, but less so than the status quo, because people are worried about the economy.

A more centralist Labour party with forward thinking policies and more caution and care with regards to the economy could have won
 
Corbyn did better than expected in the election...but he still lost. You have to give credit to his supporters who seem to have successfully won the argument that losing by a more narrow a margin than expected is the same as a win - but let's face it, it isn't no matter how many people have been convinced by it. It really isn't.

In theory a government that was split over Europe, who'd just lost the referendum it held on Europe and who only won the previous election by the slimmest of margins would not, at any other point in history, been difficult to dislodge. Yes Corbyn did better than expected, but he also lost arguably one of the easiest elections to win in modern history if you look at the state the governing party was in post the EU referendum. On paper name another post-war election where the ground was so fertile for the opposition that they ended up losing. 1992 perhaps, but Major was a great campaigner, May an awful one.

Labour's reluctance, until very recently, to do anything other than whip their MPs into supporting the government on Brexit, has made these last 12 months easier on the Tories than they needed have been. If Corbyn came out in favour of staying in the/a single market from the beginning he would have both united his own party and also provided opposition for the hard-right rhetoric. One of the reasons I believe Brexit's still polls fairly highly is because the last 18 months we've had a government saying we must leave everything and have a hard brexit, and an opposition leader who until very, very recently has said nothing much other than 'we agree'.

The only opposition to Tory hardline Brexit has been coming from the few voices in the media for much of the time since the referendum, not the Labour party, until recently but even the recent support of retaining a customs union appears to be one Corbyn's reluctantly reached after much persuasion that really shouldn't have been at all necessary.
 
Cheesy said:
I do like Corbyn but his rhetoric on the EU has been horrendously vague and undefined, in an attempt to placate hard Leavers and staunch Remainers who vote for the party. Eventually (like the Tories) he's going to have to commit to one or the other and come out with some stuff on Brexit that goes beyond mere meaningless soundbites like he's peddling at the moment.
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His difficulty is that he's every bit of pro-leaving the EU as Redwood, Fox and all the other hardliners. Even during the referendum his apparent 'pro-remain' interventions he would focus largely on things he disliked about the EU yet include a rather half-hearted caveat that maybe staying in might, possibly, perhaps, on balance, be kinda, sort of okay, I guess.

The vociferous support he has and personal nature of the attacks against anyone who voices an opinion against him means that at the time we weren't allowed to notice that.
 
Stanley Road said:
The eurozone is not just france and germany calling the shots.

Oh wait...................
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Yes you're correct it isn't, hence the article in the post you quoted listed nations who will oppose the proposals.

What is it exactly you're waiting for?
 
Cheesy said:
I do like Corbyn but his rhetoric on the EU has been horrendously vague and undefined, in an attempt to placate hard Leavers and staunch Remainers who vote for the party. Eventually (like the Tories) he's going to have to commit to one or the other and come out with some stuff on Brexit that goes beyond mere meaningless soundbites like he's peddling at the moment.
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I think he is waiting for Brexit to blow up in the Tories' faces first.
 
rcoobc said:
http://www.businessforscotland.com/outraged-theresa-may-rejects-eu-withdrawal-plan/
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I think the UK had deceived its way to kick start part 2 of the negotiations by verbally agreeing to the UK stance. The idea behind it was to better understand what the EU has in mind and be in a better position to drive a wedge between the 27 members of the EU in a typical divide and conquer strategy which is so synonymous to England and Westminster. Unfortunately for the UK it seems that the trick had a limited effect. The EU had detected the trick early on and had made it quite obvious that its prepared to freeze up negotiations unless a written commitment is given.

The good news is that the UK negotiators aren't as stupid as the media is portraying them to be. The bad news is that the UK is ruining the last shreds of reputation it held in Europe. Next time Davies speak of 'trust' there's a chance someone will end up laughiing
 
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On Corbyn personally I think he's a terrible leader for Labour. Not because of his principles, which obviously appeal to some and he seems like a nice guy, it's just he and the main people in his cabinet are so far left policy wise that they alienate the majority of voters. In the last snap election May called there was actually a lot of bad will towards her, and I know of a few people who voted Labour after having voted Tory in the 2015 election, but Corbyn doesn't nearly appeal enough to the people in the centre which for the UK is the vast majority of people (as both parties are pretty centre).

E.g. Mcdonnell with his nationalisation policies (a terrible idea, nationalisation destroyed steel and car making in this country) & Corbyn with policies like free student loans for all. I'd love free student loans, I have younger siblings in uni / going to go into uni who'd have to take tuition loans, but erasing all loans isn't a smart policy as a lot would say it's expensive for the tax payer. To appeal to voters, it's far smarter to say ok, let's maybe cut tuition loans by half, and let's reduce the high 6% interest rate. That way you appeal to both students and people who don't want the burden to fall on the tax payer. Economically, Labour currently are terrible.

I'm not sure how much better for Brexit Labour would be as they don't really have a policy on it (it's easy to say whatever when you're in opposition), and you have to remember the Conservatives were against Brexit too, but the reality is Labour will never get voted in with Corbyn in charge as economically they're terrible.

I actually agree on the above regarding David Miliband - imo he would've had a pretty solid chance of winning the 2015 election. Charisma matters a lot in elections, it's why I wasn't too surprised Trump won despite all the stuff he's said, because during debates etc he always showed himself to exude more power and charisma than Hillary. Obama was pretty much as Charismatic as you can get. David Miliband was a pretty solid orator and debator, Ed Milliband in comparison always came across as poor in both of those regards. In my eyes the 2015 election result was really lost in 2010 when David lost the Labour leadership contest. Which is funny because as was mentioned above if you look at the results of that contest David Miliband consistently won in votes through each round of voting in both MP votes and Labour party member votes, but where he lost out was in the votes from the affiliated trade unions and socialist societies. Which really has two consequences / similarities that we still see today 1) The hoopla over Europe would likely not have occured under David Miliband and we wouldn't have had a largely unneeded Brexit vote and 2) There's similarities in Corbyn winning, because he doesn't actually have the support of the majority of the labour party (as seen in the vote of no confidence which he heavily lost), but because of the changes to the labour leadership process means he's largely elected by the direct public, and more to the point largely by those who're bothered enough to register as labour party members, which in 2015 was largely the left as they're by far the heaviest campaigners for Labour. Which means Labour in it's current iteration unless they change the leadership voting structure, will remain a pretty left-ist party for the forseable future, and the chance of a more centre leader like Tony Blair being voted leader are lower. And that means we could well have a period where the only significant centre party are the conservatives.
 
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marktan said:
E.g. Mcdonnell with his nationalisation policies (a terrible idea, nationalisation destroyed steel and car making in this country) & Corbyn with policies like free student loans for all. I'd love free student loans, I have younger siblings in uni / going to go into uni who'd have to take tuition loans, but erasing all loans isn't a smart policy as a lot would say it's expensive for the tax payer. To appeal to voters, it's far smarter to say ok, let's maybe cut tuition loans by half, and let's reduce the high 6% interest rate. That way you appeal to both students and people who don't want the burden to fall on the tax payer. Economically, Labour currently are terrible.
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Tax shy Britain is the reason the whole country is a dump with crap services. Take public transport in the uk, the worst and most expensive I've experienced in Europe. People voting for tax break torys are ruining the place.
 
Gov UK Website December 2017 said:
"The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement."
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https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...rderly_withdrawal_from_the_European_Union.pdf
BBC March 2018 said:
The EU's draft legal agreement proposes a "common regulatory area" after Brexit on the island of Ireland - in effect keeping Northern Ireland in a customs union - if no other solution is found.

Mrs May said "no UK prime minister could ever agree" to this.

The EU says the "backstop" option is not intended to "provoke" the UK.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43224785
 
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