Russia's at it again

Silva said:
doesn't even call to nuke them, what a fecking pussy
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Is that something he's said today? Much stronger than what he said yesterday. Presumably someone's had a word and he's decided to backtrack.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Even if it wasn't Russia who carried out the assassination, they have breached international law by losing control of their chemical weapons.

I'm curious as to which body, apart from Russia, people think would have been able to carry out such an attack?
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Novichock is a relatively old chemical weapon. I suppose most countries in the NATO would be able to develop it. Hence the request for samples of the nerve agent -- which Britain has an obligation to share. Why aren't they being shared? Why are Britain so uncooperative?

I'm not saying Russia isn't behind this, but I'll reserve my judgement rather than listen to some knob head like May who is just as likely looking to boost her opinion polls.

I have no problem in accepting that Russia were responsible if it is verfied 100% that Novichock was 100% developed in a Russian lab. Listening to this anti Russian rhotric is getting old when all we have is politicians whipping up hysteria who are at best telling half-truths.
 
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Russia being evil again is very convenient at the moment. We'll have kids marching and waving flags on the news within a month or so.

What I think should be asked, is why we are apparently so amazingly rubbish at spying on them. Not only do we keep getting caught doing it, but the people who get caught, even get tracked down and caught again, while they're in England. Someone can literally just stroll over, go to where they live, and poison them with some apparently deadly chemical weapon. I mean did MI5 just email Putin direct with a list of names and addresses or something?

Why isn't being caught spying on another state a condemnable act in itself? The whole point of spying is no one knows you're doing it, because you aren't supposed to be doing it...because if you get caught doing it things like this happen.

It all seems suspiciously staged. Either that or we're alarmingly incompetent.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Novichock is a relatively old chemical weapon. I suppose most countries in the NATO would be able to develop it. Hence the request for samples of the nerve agent -- which Britain has an obligation to share. Why aren't they being shared. Why are Britain so uncooperative?

I'm not saying Russia isn't behind this but I'll reserve my judgement rather than listen to some knob head like May who is just as likely looking to boost her opinion polls.

I have no problem in accepting that Russia were responsible if it is verfied 100% that Novichock was 100% developed in a Russian lab. Listening to this anti Russian rhotric is getting old when. All we have is politicians whipping up hysteria who are at best telling half-truths.
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If they shared them with Russia Russia woud naturally deny it was Novichock and many would gulllibly say "well Russia would know better than Britain about their own chemicals..." and it would develop into a muddy he says she says which is what Russia wants.

Far better to give a sample to the international chemical weapons governing body for verification which is what the UK is doing.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Novichock is a relatively old chemical weapon. I suppose most countries in the NATO would be able to develop it. Hence the request for samples of the nerve agent -- which Britain has an obligation to share. Why aren't they being shared. Why are Britain so uncooperative?

I'm not saying Russia isn't behind this but I'll reserve my judgement rather than listen to some knob head like May who is just as likely looking to boost her opinion polls.

I have no problem in accepting that Russia were responsible if it is verfied 100% that Novichock was 100% developed in a Russian lab. Listening to this anti Russian rhotric is getting old when. All we have is politicians whipping up hysteria who are at best telling half-truths.
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You mean because we won't share the agent with Russia? If so, why would we give them a sample? If we flat out refuse to let the sample be analysed by separate and credible bodies then I might agree with you.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Novichock is a relatively old chemical weapon. I suppose most countries in the NATO would be able to develop it. Hence the request for samples of the nerve agent -- which Britain has an obligation to share. Why aren't they being shared? Why are Britain so uncooperative?

I'm not saying Russia isn't behind this, but I'll reserve my judgement rather than listen to some knob head like May who is just as likely looking to boost her opinion polls.

I have no problem in accepting that Russia were responsible if it is verfied 100% that Novichock was 100% developed in a Russian lab. Listening to this anti Russian rhotric is getting old when all we have is politicians whipping up hysteria who are at best telling half-truths.
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Have a read of this thread.

 
endless_wheelies said:
If they shared them with Russia Russia woud naturally deny it was Novichock and many would gulllibly say "well Russia would know better than Britain about their own chemicals..." and it would develop into a muddy he says she says which is what Russia wants.

Far better to give a sample to the international chemical weapons governing body for verification which is what the UK is doing.
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No. I don't think anyone would think that Russia knows best. This is old Soviet chemical weapon which most countries know the composition of.

It is a good thing to give those samples to an independent governing body but let Russia into the investigation which theyre willing to be part of.
 
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The thing is, now Russia have been told to "go away" and "shut up" that should be the end of it anyway.

This should be how all international incidents are resolved from now on.
 
Do some people in here believe Russia when they say they didn't kill Litvinenko as well? They even had the fecker who killed him on state TV yesterday as May gave the statement. They're taking the piss. But obviously "maybe it was Israel."
 
Dobba said:
Calling for independent investigation via the OPCW was an unpatriotic political own goal yesterday.
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No, it was literally in May's statement.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
You mean because we won't share the agent with Russia? If so, why would we give them a sample? If we flat out refuse to let the sample be analysed by separate and credible bodies then I might agree with you.
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If that is being done then that's the way to go, obviously. Until the all the facts come out from an independent body -- damaging any diplomatic relations that are left - if any, with Russia is just stupid imo.
 
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Zlatattack said:
If Britain doesn't want other countries traitors being killed on its soil then Britain should stop harbouring other peoples traitors. London is full of people like that, its the go to destination for political criminals.
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He was in the UK due to a spy exchange. Spy exchanges are important to enhance credibility with future spies. Read a book about running real agents (I can recommend The Billion Dollar Spy). Its a personal business, and they spy/agent needs to trust that his handler and country he's spying for will be committed to getting him out before or after potential capture.

noodlehair said:
What I think should be asked, is why we are apparently so amazingly rubbish at spying on them. Not only do we keep getting caught doing it, but the people who get caught, even get tracked down and caught again, while they're in England. Someone can literally just stroll over, go to where they live, and poison them with some apparently deadly chemical weapon. I mean did MI5 just email Putin direct with a list of names and addresses or something?

Why isn't being caught spying on another state a condemnable act in itself? The whole point of spying is no one knows you're doing it, because you aren't supposed to be doing it...because if you get caught doing it things like this happen.

It all seems suspiciously staged. Either that or we're alarmingly incompetent.
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Even the most useful spies eventually get caught. There's actually a history of the UK being better at spying on the Russians than the US is. See Oleg Penkovsky, and more recently the fact that the entire Russia/Trump dossier came from a former MI6 guy, not former CIA. Russian spies in the US and UK get caught every now and then too.
 
Dobba said:
Calling for independent investigation via the OPCW was an unpatriotic political own goal yesterday.
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Why?

MaxiPaxi said:
No. I don't think anyone would think that Russia knows best. This is old Soviet chemical weapon which most countries know the composition of.

It is a good thing to give those samples to an independent governing body but let Russia into the investigation which they willing to be part of.
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Of course they would. Confrontation-shy left wingers, conspiracy theorists, general attention-seekers, basically 90% of this forum.
 
Ubik said:
Do some people in here believe Russia when they say they didn't kill Litvinenko as well? They even had the fecker who killed him on state TV yesterday as May gave the statement. They're taking the piss. But obviously "maybe it was Israel."
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I certainly dont think anyone but Russia killed Litvinenko. The fact that they won't extrodite Lugovoy is pretty damning. I mean he is the prime suspect. The only suspect.
 
Ubik said:
Do some people in here believe Russia when they say they didn't kill Litvinenko as well? They even had the fecker who killed him on state TV yesterday as May gave the statement. They're taking the piss. But obviously "maybe it was Israel."
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Nah, it was clearly to take the spotlight away from Brexit. Forget that the man's daughter and a police officer were seriously injured, as well as there being a significant risk to the public, it's a smoke screen. Lol.

Must be fun to live in a country where the president can rule as a dictator by changing the rules on term limits to suit him & order assassinations on political refugees living in other countries. Hopefully he doesn't do anything too stupid before the end of his newest term in 2024 and old age then makes him dissappear. Only he'll probably be replaced by some other wack who's not accountable to anyone. Really does baffle me how 'democracy' works in Russia and China.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Have a read of this thread.

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That was quite interesting. Although to be fair he doesn't quite answer Murray's question about how a mass spectrometer can identify that the sample came from Russia, unless I've missed or not quite understood something which is entirely possible given I'm not a chemistry Phd. I'd imagine what will eventually happen once all the bluster dies down is that a sample will be given to the OPCW for analysis and an objective conclusion. I don't understand what the government would have to lose in doing that as it would presumably strenghen their position.

Edit: He does actually admit that it can't be proven beyond doubt with Chemistry that it was made by Russia.

 
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Reiver said:
Yep. Papers today - Sun and Mail - are hammering over it, calling him a traitor. I think it's on issues like this - who he has associated with/where his allegiances lie, where he is most vulnerable to attack.

What's the consensus on this then? Probably Russia but, if not, North Korea?
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Well if it was NK or some other nation trying to set Putin/Russia up I wouldn’t like to be them when Putin finds out what they have done. Doubt even Kimmy wants to lose one of his best allies.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Even if it wasn't Russia who carried out the assassination, they have breached international law by losing control of their chemical weapons.

I'm curious as to which body, apart from Russia, people think would have been able to carry out such an attack?
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The man who invented the poison has been living in the US since 1996.

The site where it was produced and tested was located in Nukus, Uzbekistan and was dismantled and decontaminated by Americans back in 1999.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/1999/05/25/world/us-and-uzbeks-agree-on-chemical-arms-plant-cleanup.html
 
Raulduke said:
That was quite interesting. Although to be fair he doesn't quite answer Murray's question about how a mass spectrometer can identify that the sample came from Russia, unless I've missed or not quite understood something which is entirely possible given I'm not a chemistry Phd. I'd imagine what will eventually happen once all the bluster dies down is that a sample will be given to the OPCW for analysis and an objective conclusion. I don't understand what the government would have to lose in doing that as it would presumably strenghen their position.
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They are doing that, it was said in the statement yesterday.
 
noodlehair said:
Someone can literally just stroll over, go to where they live, and poison them with some apparently deadly chemical weapon. I mean did MI5 just email Putin direct with a list of names and addresses or something?
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In this case, his kids were travelling back and forth to Russia. It wouldn't have been difficult for someone to just follow them to their dads home. That's if the he was in a super secret witness protection type program, which he wasn't.

noodlehair said:
we're alarmingly incompetent.
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yes
 
MTF said:
He was in the UK due to a spy exchange. Spy exchanges are important to enhance credibility with future spies. Read a book about running real agents (I can recommend The Billion Dollar Spy). Its a personal business, and they spy/agent needs to trust that his handler and country he's spying for will be committed to getting him out before or after potential capture.
.
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Oh, i didn't know that bit. I guess spy exchanges or something need to be respected.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Have a read of this thread.

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The thing I don't buy into is that Putin wants to leave all his fingerprints all over this. To show he can do what he wants etc.

He has no need to.

The Russian elections are wrapped up so I don't see it from that angle. Same as revealing those hypersonic weapons.

Russia are already under economic sanctions which are likely to increase. More travel bans for Putin's associates etc.

Also, Skripal was sentenced for 13 years, then pardoned, then turned over to UK. Why kill him now? He's no longer a threat as I'm sure FSB interrogated the shit out of him before turning him over to UK. Who probably did the same. It would actually damage Putin's position to leave such a mess in the current politcal climate with the West.

If it was Russian State, that ordered the hit, I'd be inclined to believe that it was a massive botch up more than anything else - considering the victims are still alive. Doesn't happen very often.
 
Zlatattack said:
Oh, i didn't know that bit. I guess spy exchanges or something need to be respected.
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Yeah, you're just reminded that its not a simple mechanical exchange (info for money). The spy knows he's putting himself and his family at great risk. They usually want some assurance of long-term commitment if he delivers "the goods". On the other end the handler is usually the biggest advocate in his own org for the spy, to try and get him out before the worst (often don't manage to).
 
For those who still seem unsure how the government knows where this nerve agent came from Russia or can’t understand why Russia might use a nerve agent traceable to them there is an easy to read article here from the Independent.

“There are very high resolution analysis techniques that can track down trace elements, certain types of chemicals in the particular region where it has been made.”
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ei-skripal-if-survive-live-body-a8253976.html
 
Dobba said:


If only someone had suggested this a couple of days ago...
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Corbyn should say more Grrrs when he talks about formal due diligence maybe then the proles would be placated. Maybe thump his chest a little and call Putin a girls blouse, that'll really show he's a leader
 
noodlehair said:
The thing is, now Russia have been told to "go away" and "shut up" that should be the end of it anyway.

This should be how all international incidents are resolved from now on.
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The guy is the Neymar of defense secretaries after all.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
The thing I don't buy into is that Putin wants to leave all his fingerprints all over this. To show he can do what he wants etc.

He has no need to.

The Russian elections are wrapped up so I don't see it from that angle. Same as revealing those hypersonic weapons.

Russia are already under economic sanctions which are likely to increase. More travel bans for Putin's associates etc.

Also, Skripal was sentenced for 13 years, then pardoned, then turned over to UK. Why kill him now? He's no longer a threat as I'm sure FSB interrogated the shit out of him before turning him over to UK. Who probably did the same. It would actually damage Putin's position to leave such a mess in the current politcal climate with the West.

If it was Russian State, that ordered the hit, I'd be inclined to believe that it was a massive botch up more than anything else - considering the victims are still alive. Doesn't happen very often.
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Russia formally requested the extradition of all 22 between 2007 and 2016.

But 14 requests were turned down by Mrs May and two others were rejected by Labour’s Charles Clarke and Jacqui Smith when they were home secretary.

Six other extradition cases were thrown out by the courts.
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Putin has a list of 22 he wanted extraditing to Russia. He didn’t get them so he’s dealing with it himself. At the same time he is sending a very strong message to any other Russian thinking of betraying him or Russia. He really doesn’t care what people think as long as he gets revenge. That’s Putin though.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/931949/uk-russia-latest-putin-hit-list-Nikolai-Glushkov
 
Red Defence said:
For those who still seem unsure how the government knows where this nerve agent came from Russia or can’t understand why Russia might use a nerve agent traceable to them there is an easy to read article here from the Independent.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ei-skripal-if-survive-live-body-a8253976.html
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I don't think anyone is saying it didn't come from Russia, that doesn't mean its a state kill though just as easily they've lost control of the supply which is obviously just as bad.

The criticism is largely around the goverments response, which is more PR than substance.
 
Red Defence said:
For those who still seem unsure how the government knows where this nerve agent came from Russia or can’t understand why Russia might use a nerve agent traceable to them there is an easy to read article here from the Independent.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ei-skripal-if-survive-live-body-a8253976.html
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I don't get this 'leaving a calling card' either. Those guys are spies. They know better than most - what happens to double agents. I'm sure they're already aware of Putin's ruthlessness. It's highly probable that there has been many assassinations from the Russian State, without the media attention.
 
Red Defence said:
Putin has a list of 22 he wanted extraditing to Russia. He didn’t get them so he’s dealing with it himself. At the same time he is sending a very strong message to any other Russian thinking of betraying him or Russia. He really doesn’t care what people think as long as he gets revenge. That’s Putin though.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/931949/uk-russia-latest-putin-hit-list-Nikolai-Glushkov
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I'm not surprised, considering Putin's KGB background, that he'd want every double agent dealt with. What I'm dumbed out about is -- Why Skripal? Why now? He's been sentanced and pardoned. Makes no sense to me to whack him now.

Killing someone like Nemtsov, Politkovskaya (I know they weren't spies) who were opposing and exposing Putin seems more like his MO. Why kill someone who really was no longer of any interest to Putin - who by all accounts lived a quiet life in UK?
 
MaxiPaxi said:
I'm not surprised, considering Putin's KGB background, that he'd want every double agent dealt with. What I'm dumbed out about is -- Why Skripal? Why now? He's been sentanced and pardoned. Makes no sense to me to whack him now.

Killing someone like Nemtsov, Politkovskaya (I know they weren't spies) who were opposing and exposing Putin seems more like his MO. Why kill someone who really was no longer of any interest to Putin - who by all accounts lived a quiet life in UK?
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I read a quote from someone (Putin or other senior chap in Russian government) which atm I can’t find (I’ll have another look when I’ve time) which said words to the effect that no-one who betrays Russia is ever “pardoned”. They are never forgiven. They are always guilty of betrayal. “Pardoning” Skripal was something they had to do for the exchange (the 10 spies from the US) a few years ago. Most countries accept it but Putin says he never forgives betrayal.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
I'm not surprised, considering Putin's KGB background, that he'd want every double agent dealt with. What I'm dumbed out about is -- Why Skripal? Why now? He's been sentanced and pardoned. Makes no sense to me to whack him now.

Killing someone like Nemtsov, Politkovskaya (I know they weren't spies) who were opposing and exposing Putin seems more like his MO. Why kill someone who really was no longer of any interest to Putin - who by all accounts lived a quiet life in UK?
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"I can never forgive betrayal." - Vladimir Putin
 
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