Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Silva said:
How are you going to that while leaving Ireland borderless and maintaining regulatory alignment between the north and republic, and maintaining regulatory alignment between NI and mainland UK?
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How do goods and services pass between the EU and Switzerland? Pretty seamlessly I can tell you. The same between Norway and Sweden. The Irish question is not insurmountable. Personally I think too much is being made of it.
 
Honest John said:
What is a faux Brexit? As far as I see if we can control who comes and goes in this country, what the law of the Land is and stop paying fees to the EU then that is Brexit. The rest is trade negotiations with the EU and the rest of the world
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You think we're suddenly going to gain control of our border? What with the Torys proposed volunteer border force?

Magic money from Brexit will pay for a reversal in cuts I'm sure
 
Honest John said:
Gosh I wish you could have seen the 70's. Of course you buy it. He's promising you Shangri La. I have a wife kids and a mortgage, I come from a shit-poor working class background and I have worked from an apprentice to where I am now. I am in my 43rd year of work and I do not want to see a return to the bad old days. Not for me or for my daughter. So sorry friend but you feck right off. Corbyn will not make things better he will just kill aspiration and enterprise stone dead because he believes that we should all be wearing the same clothes and caps with red stars on them.
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Out of interest where would all these businesses move to? Corbyn advocates incremental increases over the life of a Parliament to a return to 2010 levels of corporate tax (26%). Do you know what the level of corporate tax in other EU countries is?
 
Honest John said:
Listen, I voted remain. But I was out-voted so now we have to get on with it. It is easy to sit on the side lines and kick holes in everything that is being proposed or negotiated.
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I don't agree with that at all. The referendum was advisory not binding and Cameron was not within his rights to say that it was. We live in a parliamentary system, so if you disagree or if you have well founded fears about the direction of the country, you fight via parliament.

"Your representative [MP] owes you not just his industry but his judgment; and he betrays you if he sacrifices it to your opinion" - Edmund Burke (paraphrased)
 
Honest John said:
How do goods and services pass between the EU and Switzerland? Pretty seamlessly I can tell you. The same between Norway and Sweden. The Irish question is not insurmountable. Personally I think too much is being made of it.
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Those countries have agreed to freedom of movement, goods and labour and almost everything else the EU has to offer. That's literally a faux Brexit. "oh, we left the EU, we're in the EFTA/EEA now"

*We're already in the EEA lol

I can see why you vote conservative, they've got you wrapped around their little finger
 
Honest John said:
Listen, I voted remain. But I was out-voted so now we have to get on with it. It is easy to sit on the side lines and kick holes in everything that is being proposed or negotiated.

But I do not see the Labour party going over there and doing anything other but agreeing a deal that is remain in all but name. And believe me the reaction would be 10 times worse if that happened.
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So you're criticising Labour on their economy...while saying you'd also criticise them if they took the more economically sensible approach on Brexit than the Tories?
 
Honest John said:
How do goods and services pass between the EU and Switzerland? Pretty seamlessly I can tell you. The same between Norway and Sweden. The Irish question is not insurmountable. Personally I think too much is being made of it.
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Switzerland quite literally has freedom of movement with the EU. The UK government want to end that.
 
Silva said:
Those countries have agreed to freedom of movement, goods and labour and almost everything else the EU has to offer. That's literally a faux Brexit. "oh, we left the EU, we're in the EFTA/EEA now"

*We're already in the EEA lol

I can see why you vote conservative, they've got you wrapped around their little finger
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I did not mean we should copy but at least acknowledge that all possible models have not been used up already. They just dreamed up another one for Canada. So why can't we create one for us and the EU?

I vote Conservative because I believe in freedom of choice and I fundamentally disagree with Left wing politics and I refuse to acknowledge that the Left owns the entire mountain range of the moral high-ground which they undoubtedly think they do.
 
Honest John said:
I did not mean we should copy but at least acknowledge that all possible models have not been used up already. They just dreamed up another one for Canada. So why can't we create one for us and the EU?

I vote Conservative because I believe in freedom of choice and I fundamentally disagree with Left wing politics and I refuse to acknowledge that the Left owns the entire mountain range of the moral high-ground which they undoubtedly think they do.
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The Canada model is incompatible with the good Friday agreement. You can't close the NI/Republic border. And the government is in bed with the DUP so they can't create regulatory divergence from NI to the mainland.
 
Honest John said:
I did not mean we should copy but at least acknowledge that all possible models have not been used up already. They just dreamed up another one for Canada. So why can't we create one for us and the EU?

I vote Conservative because I believe in freedom of choice and I fundamentally disagree with Left wing politics and I refuse to acknowledge that the Left owns the entire mountain range of the moral high-ground which they undoubtedly think they do.
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Because Canada is on the other side of the world and thus freedom of movement isn't really as pertinent an issue, unlike us since part of the UK borders an EU nation which has a treaty obliging us to ensure freedom of movement is retained between both and that no hard border is implemented.

Plus Canada have never been a member of the EU. We're complicating things by backing out of a number of treaties, financial deals, payments we've traditionally made to them since joining...so where's their motivation to give us a good deal? We're the smaller player here and ultimately don't have as bargaining room as them. That might be shite for us but it's the reality we're living in. The EU aren't going to give into our demands at a whim because they don't need to.

Plus the deal between Canada and the EU took seven years to agree to. It wasn't 'dreamed' up at all, it was finally ratified after prolonged discussion between both countries.
 
Silva said:
The Canada model is incompatible with the good Friday agreement. You can't close the NI/Republic border. And the government is in bed with the DUP so they can't create regulatory divergence from NI to the mainland.
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My point was that other 'models' have been devised and agreed to suit varying circumstances and arrangements. So, we need one more.

There is a border between north and south now. Vehicles are stopped albeit randomly and with reason. So there are checks. It is not beyond the wit of the EU and UK to solve this. It is in the EU's interest as well as ours.
 
Honest John said:
My point was that other 'models' have been devised and agreed to suit varying circumstances and arrangements. So, we need one more.

There is a border between north and south now. Vehicles are stopped albeit randomly and with reason. So there are checks. It is not beyond the wit of the EU and UK to solve this. It is in the EU's interest as well as ours.
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The EU has solved it. Regulatory divergence between NI and the mainland. Effectively annexing NI.

Britain has only offered the same vacuous words you are.
 
Silva said:
The EU has solved it. Regulatory divergence between NI and the mainland. Effectively annexing NI.

Britain has only offered the same vacuous words you are.
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As I understand it that is a back-stop position. Why must any solution be based on an existing model? Why can't a different model be negotiated?
 
Honest John said:
This all costs money and if you really think that taxing the rich and business is going to pay for it then think again.
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Why not? Go after multi-nationals or IP ban their websites on all British ISPs. Increase higher earners tax to 55%, Add wealth taxes like a yearly mansion tax, which increases at a higher percent depending on the value of the property. A yearly luxury car tax at an increasing higher percentage related to car cost with all cars seized and auctioned if not in . A second home anual tax as percentage of second home value. And a higher earner corporation tax because corporations shouldn't pay a lesser percentage than individuals. There's plenty of ways to tax the rich that aren't used instead most taxs hit the poor, ie 'sugar tax' is aimed at the poor.

Honest John said:
The Tories big mistake during the last election was that they should have kicked massive holes in Corbyn's pie-in-the-sky totally unfunded promises. Don't you see? He, by all accounts was going to get hammered. He could promise the earth in the sure knowledge he would never have to deliver. Boom! all the kids buy it.
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The Tories big mistake was running an election campaign on 'Yes but Jeremy Corbyn' on every question of their failings.

Honest John said:
Can you not see the paradox that if you tax business, they will feck off elsewhere. If you tax the rich (like in the 70's) they will too. If the rich go and businesses go then unemployment will rise. Welfare payments will rise and eventually they will have no choice but to tax all of us. When I started work in 75 the basic rate of tax was 35% rising to 83%. All that was used for was to prop up failing industries. Public services were crap because they were always on strike for more pay because their bloody taxes were too high!
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And since then it's gone too far the other way where tax avoiders get away with paying next to nothing and essentially steal from the system. Wealth creators aren't wealth creators if their workers are living in poverty.

Amazon, Ebay and Facebook can feck off elsewhere and the those that pay higher taxes will make profits off the British internet if they won't pay for the privildge. Currently they're getting the British internet for free and probably doing dirty deals to get away with it.
 
Honest John said:
As I understand it that is a back-stop position. Why must any solution be based on an existing model? Why can't a different model be negotiated?
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These models take years - if not decades - to agree.
 
Given the heart attack that the EU suffered on the referendum result and the sheer terror of other countries following suit you'd think they'd make some compromise and give special leave Ireland to enter into a bi-lateral agreement with the UK based on the common travel area that exists between the nations (which pre-dates the EU) and the contents of the Good Friday agreement.
 
Honest John said:
Given the heart attack that the EU suffered on the referendum result and the sheer terror of other countries following suit you'd think they'd make some compromise and give special leave Ireland to enter into a bi-lateral agreement with the UK based on the common travel area that exists between the nations (which pre-dates the EU) and the contents of the Good Friday agreement.
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EU favourability went up after the Brexit vote and has only been increasing, Britain getting fecked is going to be the best thing to happen for EU unity.
 
Cheesy said:
These models take years - if not decades - to agree.
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Silva said:
because there's less than a year left, a new bespoke trade agreement takes about a decade to agree
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Are we not looking for a bespoke agreement then? Should we be looking at an off-the-shelf solution? If so. Which one? You've already said Canada doesn't work because of the Irish problem and because it doesn't include services. EAA as in Norway etc. means accepting free movement and fee's for access - could they sell that to the country? When you look at it the path being taken is the only logical one. That is control of borders, laws and money -some bespoke trade deal with the EU, the ability to strike other deals and a resolution to the Irish border.
 
Honest John said:
Are we not looking for a bespoke agreement then? Should we be looking at an off-the-shelf solution? If so. Which one? You've already said Canada doesn't work because of the Irish problem and because it doesn't include services. EAA as in Norway etc. means accepting free movement and fee's for access - could they sell that to the country? When you look at it the path being taken is the only logical one. That is control of borders, laws and money -some bespoke trade deal with the EU, the ability to strike other deals and a resolution to the Irish border.
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This is a pretty easy one. Cancel Brexit, vote labour in, and laugh at all the pensioners trying to riot about it.
 
Silva said:
EU favourability went up after the Brexit vote and has only been increasing, Britain getting fecked is going to be the best thing to happen for EU unity.
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Not in Italy. Or Greece - their ordeal is far from over. In fact some studies reckon that a similar vote in a number of EU states would produce a mighty close if not the same result as the UK.
The EU are fools for not reforming and taking account of changing attitudes. The Common Market was a good idea. The current situation with the EU, is not what the majority of UK people envisaged.
 
Honest John said:
Given the heart attack that the EU suffered on the referendum result and the sheer terror of other countries following suit you'd think they'd make some compromise and give special leave Ireland to enter into a bi-lateral agreement with the UK based on the common travel area that exists between the nations (which pre-dates the EU) and the contents of the Good Friday agreement.
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You're not understanding that this is nothing to do with the EU. A Hard Brexit means a hard border. The only reason The Good Friday Agreement was possible was because of the EU allowing a frictionless border. Without a hard border there is effectively no Brexit so Britain has the problem to either force a hard border on Ireland or create a hard border with any goods coming from Nothern Ireland, both are unacceptable solutions to either side in NI.
 
Silva said:
The republicans would be delighted with an Irish customs union, the unionists delighted with a hard Irish border. The only acceptable solution to both sides is the current one.
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What are the reprocussions of a hard border from Sin Fein? Presumably that's the destination that we're heading towards.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
What are the reprocussions of a hard border from Sin Fein? Presumably that's the destination that we're heading towards.
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Their ideological underpinning is to see a united Ireland. But they've settled for a situation where they power share with unionists and have double nationality. If there is a hard border between the north and the republic, the deal between the two groups falls apart.
 
Silva said:
This is a pretty easy one. Cancel Brexit, vote labour in, and laugh at all the pensioners trying to riot about it.
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Apart from the Labour bit there is some of me that would go with that. I was appalled at the result. As I said I was a remainer. Not entirely happy with the EU but I thought it better to stay in and try to reform. I run an engineering company and we employ 40 people. 90% of my business is in the aerospace sector and 60% comes either directly or indirectly from Airbus. There is no way that I ever wanted that to be put into question. In fact I am still nervous about the eventual outcome. But we either try and make the best of it or we overturn it and say feck you to 52% of the electorate. (and they will be pissed off with anything that looks like EU by the back door). Who then would we be to preach to the EU about not being democratic? The problem is that the arguments have become polarised to the point of families falling out and all sorts. I think everyone wants the best for this country but also everyone wants to see democracy served. If the final deal goes to a vote and it is rejected by Parliament then there are only two remaining course of action. Either we stay put or we go to the Country again - with the right questions and informed choices this time.
 
Honest John said:
Apart from the Labour bit there is some of me that would go with that. I was appalled at the result. As I said I was a remainer. Not entirely happy with the EU but I thought it better to stay in and try to reform. I run an engineering company and we employ 40 people. 90% of my business is in the aerospace sector and 60% comes either directly or indirectly from Airbus. There is no way that I ever wanted that to be put into question. In fact I am still nervous about the eventual outcome. But we either try and make the best of it or we overturn it and say feck you to 52% of the electorate. (and they will be pissed off with anything that looks like EU by the back door). Who then would we be to preach to the EU about not being democratic? The problem is that the arguments have become polarised to the point of families falling out and all sorts. I think everyone wants the best for this country but also everyone wants to see democracy served. If the final deal goes to a vote and it is rejected by Parliament then there are only two remaining course of action. Either we stay put or we go to the Country again - with the right questions and informed choices this time.
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Who are we to preach democracy now? Parties win power with as little as 35% of the vote, we have a monarchy and an unelected house of lords. This country has never been about democracy.
 
Silva said:
Their ideological underpinning is to see a united Ireland. But they've settled for a situation where they power share with unionists and have double nationality. If there is a hard border between the north and the republic, the deal between the two groups falls apart.
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Just been reading their position and they aren't happy but without taking their seats or resorting to violence they can't stop this. I'd imagine they aren't going to do either and The Tories will just push through a hard border and Ireland presumably will maintain the dual nationality
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Just been reading their position and they aren't happy but without taking their seats or resorting to violence they can't stop this. I'd imagine they aren't going to do either and The Tories will just push through a hard border and Ireland presumably will maintain the dual nationality
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both sides have terrorist arms though, it wouldn't be shocking to see that reemerge.
 
As much as the patronising bollocks Honest John started this debate with hacked me off I do think that his posts sum up the problem Labour have under Corbyn which is that, whilst I think if Honest John was honest he would admit he could do more to critically evaluate information he receives, he represents something close to the battle ground in British politics: Remain voter, mid 40s, intelligent, probably primarily receives information through traditional media sources (and therefore primarily through a Dacre/Murdoch/Desmond lens). The fact that we get the Conservative attack lines and 'the EU is more desperate for a deal' fantasy fiction reflected back verbatim is worrying.

I don't really know how Labour (or pro-Remain supports) address that issue, but the fact outright lies get dressed up as facts and trotted out day in day out is a huge problem.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Just been reading their position and they aren't happy but without taking their seats or resorting to violence they can't stop this. I'd imagine they aren't going to do either and The Tories will just push through a hard border and Ireland presumably will maintain the dual nationality
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Sinn Fein themselves won't resort to violence and will just try to use it to their political advantage - the problem is fringe groups who see this as an excuse to commence violence again. It won't get to troubles level stuff but it could be problematic, and if that happens the UK government should be condemned for creating a situation they knew could emerge but allowed to flourish due to party politics.
 
NinjaFletch said:
As much as the patronising bollocks Honest John started this debate with hacked me off I do think that his posts sum up the problem Labour have under Corbyn which is that, whilst I think if Honest John was honest he would admit he could do more to critically evaluate information he receives, he represents something close to the battle ground in British politics: Remain voter, mid 40s, intelligent, probably primarily receives information through traditional media sources (and therefore primarily through a Dacre/Murdoch/Desmond lens). The fact that we get the Conservative attack lines and 'the EU is more desperate for a deal' fantasy fiction reflected back verbatim is worrying.

I don't really know how Labour (or pro-Remain supports) address that issue, but the fact outright lies get dressed up as facts and trotted out day in day out is a huge problem.
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He's in his 60s, just to up the tory stereotype. Mid 40s lean Labour these days.
 
Honest John said:
You truly think that Labour would have done better?? Corbyn has splinters up his arse he sits on the fence so much.
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I'm fairly confident an ape making the decisions by flipping a coin would be doing better than the current government.

Just today they have to explain to 30+ allies how they were sure Salisbury was a Russian attack and now have to backpedal publicly (looks very bad even if it was Russia and everyone is convinced it was). This government fecks up everything, everything, it touches. And the stuff it touches is mostly completely unnecessary too.
 
Silva said:
He's in his 60s, just to up the tory stereotype. Mid 40s lean Labour these days.
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Ah, I misread 'in my 43rd year of work' as '43'. My bad. Makes more sense.

Yeah, he sounds literally like my dad: 60 years old, working class background, went to free University and became a solicitor and now is pretty well off, primary source of news = The Times. Generally has pretty sensible political opinions, or at least used to, voted Remain but thinks we should 'get on with it' now and believes everything he reads about Corbyn. Told my mum off for 'wanting to ruin the country' when he found out she voted Labour last year (jokes on him caus everyone in our family did apart from him). Literally every argument Honest John's come out with today is almost word for word identical with stuff my Dad has said over the past year. If Honest John hadn't told us he had a daughter (a daughter thats probably old enough to have voted Labour ha) I'd honestly question whether they were the same person.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Ah, I misread 'in my 43rd year of work' as '43'. My bad. Makes more sense.

Yeah, he sounds literally like my dad: 60 years old, working class background, went to free University and became a solicitor and now is pretty well off, primary source of news = The Times. Generally has pretty sensible political opinions, or at least used to, voted Remain but thinks we should 'get on with it' now and believes everything he reads about Corbyn. Told my mum off for 'wanting to ruin the country' when he found out she voted Labour last year (jokes on him caus everyone in our family did apart from him). Literally every argument Honest John's come out with today is almost word for word identical with stuff my Dad has said over the past year. If Honest John hadn't told us he had a daughter (a daughter thats probably old enough to have voted Labour ha) I'd honestly question whether they were the same person.
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Abizzz said:
I'm fairly confident an ape making the decisions by flipping a coin would be doing better than the current government.

Just today they have to explain to 30+ allies how they were sure Salisbury was a Russian attack and now have to backpedal publicly (looks very bad even if it was Russia and everyone is convinced it was). This government fecks up everything, everything, it touches. And the stuff it touches is mostly completely unnecessary too.
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Military grade nerve agent used in Wilshire Town? Nothing to see here.
 
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NinjaFletch said:
Ah, I misread 'in my 43rd year of work' as '43'. My bad. Makes more sense.

Yeah, he sounds literally like my dad: 60 years old, working class background, went to free University and became a solicitor and now is pretty well off, primary source of news = The Times. Generally has pretty sensible political opinions, or at least used to, voted Remain but thinks we should 'get on with it' now and believes everything he reads about Corbyn. Told my mum off for 'wanting to ruin the country' when he found out she voted Labour last year (jokes on him caus everyone in our family did apart from him). Literally every argument Honest John's come out with today is almost word for word identical with stuff my Dad has said over the past year. If Honest John hadn't told us he had a daughter (a daughter thats probably old enough to have voted Labour ha) I'd honestly question whether they were the same person.
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Sounds like you've had a lovely upbringing despite your father's gammon face.
 
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