Martial has got to remain at United | No, he hasn't been unfollowing United players on Instagram

Wilson Litchmore said:
No guarantee even when you sign talent for record fees. Ironically, that's why we are having this discussion about Martial. Like said no guarantees in football but there is something about this lad that just has star quality. Time will tell....
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It's dangerous to develop ball reliance like Martial has. We've seen it with players like Ben Arfa and Queresma. They have a bag of tricks, and take the piss out of the other team with the ball, but lack footballing fundamentals.

The vast majority of a player's success comes from working on off-ball qualities both in attack and defense. An attacker that is always on the move, making the defenders second guess themselves, that is what all world class attackers are.

Martial is probably as talented as Mbappe, but Mbappe's game intelligence is so good. You can't pin him down, and if you gave him an inch of space he'd kill you. Martial seems quite easy to pin down, due to him coming short all the time and having a low work rate. It's a strange one because Martial is lightning quick, but it might just be that he doesn't see the game that way.
 
I know he gets overrated by a lot of people but I just can't shake this feeling I have that he is going to go on to become a class player as well so obviously if he does it'd be awful to lose him. If he does leave, I hope at the very least we stick some kind of buyback option into the deal to whoever he goes to similar to what Madrid originally did with Morata, even if that means selling him for a much smaller fee I think it's really important we give ourselves the opportunity to bring him back.
 
Damien said:
Ronaldo's breakthrough season was in his fourth season at the club. Ronaldo's third season:



Ronaldo's time at the club (courtesy of @Mrs Smoker):
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And now Martial's time plus comparison to Ronaldo's time:

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Interesting thread around this time during Ronaldo's third season at the club. He divided opinion a fair bit then too.



You're right that at the same age Martial is now, Ronaldo was runner up for the Ballon d'Or but three years into both United careers, they had their ups and downs. Main difference is Ronaldo consistently got a lot of playing time through the good times and the bad whereas Martial's has been decreasing season on season.

Despite all that, I don't get why people keep comparing Martial to one of the best players in the history of the game. He's his own player and not many reach the pinnacle. He'd do well to get close and I don't think that will be happening here at least.
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Let me first say that this is a very good post. It's really enlightening. Thumbs up.

However, I think stats tend to be overrated or often not contextualized.

From many accounts, Ronaldo had a superb attitude and work ethics as a young player (and he still has it now at 33). At times, stats don't capture that. It has been said that he was often the first to turn up in training and the last to leave. Sir Alex has said and written much about Ronaldo's incredible drive to improve himself and become the best. He also obviously deified Sir Alex. When you have a player like that in your team, you hardly worry about stats. You see him as a rough diamond to be kept, refined and nurtured. Remember what Jose said about Lukaku when he was not scoring? He said he didn't care about the goal drought because Lukaku was giving a lot of himself to the team. For all their differences, Sir Alex and Jose have something in common: they are very big on loyalty and hard work ethics by their players.

On the other hand, even though I cannot claim that these are all facts, Martial seems to send out a different vibe and many of the news around him outside of his on-field performances, don't seem inspiring. I have also never heard anyone talk about him having an incredible work ethic or devotion to his craft. Maybe the coaching crew are not impressed with him despite his incredible talent.

I don't want to judge Martial. I like the kid and I think he can be really great but he has to take his opportunities and work very hard to be the best. And like Jose once said about him, he needs to listen more to his manager than to his agent.
 
divad said:
there is nothing right with picking kick and run merchant Rashford over martial, honestly if rashford wasn't from the academy there wouldn't be any hype, i have not seen anything special about him other than good longshots and pace (wich he uses horrybly)
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There wouldn't be any hype about a 20-year old who:

• Scored two on his EL debut
• Scored two on his Premier League debut vs. Arsenal
• Scored in his first Manchester derby vs. Man City (and a couple of times against them since)
• Scored on his Champions League debut
• Scored on his England debut, becoming the youngest English player to score in his first senior international match.
• Scored cracking goals against Chelsea & Liverpool (brace)
• Was runner up for the Golden Boy award for best European player under 21, then came 3rd the following season.


Ok @divad... back to the mental hospital for you.
 
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if martial doesnt want to be here, there is no harm for selling him with buy back clause and right incentives added. He has got enough chances this season of which he was productive in most games and bad in some. If he doesnt not understand being part of team at a big club, it not worth wasting time on him and his antics.

Sell him for the right amount and bring a right winger in who will be much useful for squad, if he want to be here he will modify his game to take right away position and make it his own. Sanchez played right wing for barca and later got left and center positions. Player dont dictate positions and is not a good practice to encourage.
 
King_Cantona07 said:
if martial doesnt want to be here, there is no harm for selling him with buy back clause and right incentives added. He has got enough chances this season of which he was productive in most games and bad in some. If he doesnt not understand being part of team at a big club, it not worth wasting time on him and his antics.

Sell him for the right amount and bring a right winger in who will be much useful for squad, if he want to be here he will modify his game to take right away position and make it his own. Sanchez played right wing for barca and later got left and center positions. Player dont dictate positions and is not a good practice to encourage.
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It’s not really that simple. Martial would be going to a big club so a buyback clause wouldn’t be possible therefore when he becomes world class for another club, which he will, he’ll never wear United colours again.
 
LennonNL said:
It’s not really that simple. Martial would be going to a big club so a buyback clause wouldn’t be possible therefore when he becomes world class for another club, which he will, he’ll never wear United colours again.
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Juventus accepted buyback clause on Morata. It wouldn't be the first time a big club sells to a another big club with a buyback clause.
 
Mihai92 said:
Juventus accepted buyback clause on Morata. It wouldn't be the first time a big club sells to a another big club with a buyback clause.
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They got Morata for €20M. I doubt we'd sell Martial for €40M even with a buyback.
 
Mihai92 said:
Juventus accepted buyback clause on Morata. It wouldn't be the first time a big club sells to a another big club with a buyback clause.
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Big clubs normally don’t buy players that they’d be okay selling again. Big clubs buy players that win them things, so if Martial becomes class they wouldn’t be happy us just buying him back again.

You normally see buybacks in smaller transfers with players that are going down a level. Hoping we do one with Shaw if we end up selling him. They’re not really that common in general tbh.
 
LennonNL said:
It’s not really that simple. Martial would be going to a big club so a buyback clause wouldn’t be possible therefore when he becomes world class for another club, which he will, he’ll never wear United colours again.
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possible that a club like madrid wont accept buyback clause, but possible with a club which need a star player for now like how juve purchased from madrid. Only way they got morata was because of buy back clause, else they wait till end of contract.

If selling team is putting strong stance it is feasible, at worse case we risk losing him to nothing. Either way if he already made up mind extending coming back from another club etc is not going to happen
 
King_Cantona07 said:
possible that a club like madrid wont accept buyback clause, but possible with a club which need a star player for now like how juve purchased from madrid. Only way they got morata was because of buy back clause, else they wait till end of contract.

If selling team is putting strong stance it is feasible, at worse case we risk losing him to nothing. Either way if he already made up mind extending coming back from another club etc is not going to happen
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Morata was no star when Juve bought him.
 
Damien said:
They got Morata for €20M. I doubt we'd sell Martial for €40M even with a buyback.
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We'd have to be looking at £50 million at the very least for Martial.

I'd gladly accept half that amount if a buyback clause could be implemented in the deal, though.
 
Seriously, what was the point in buying Sanchez?
In three years time Martial will be 25yo world class player for some other club, while United will probably be looking for Sanchez replacement.
Why would you even buy another player for a position we already had to rotate two very good players?
Why wasn't this decision sanctioned by the board? If doesn't make any sense even from economical point of view, selling our 3rd/4th most valuable asset for 29yo who's very likely to be finished in 3-4 years. Getting a replacement will cost as twice as much in near future.
 
I know he was only on in the second half but West Brom players nicked the ball off him so easily, no desire to chase them down and that's why Mourinho isn't playing him.
 
badkins said:
Seriously, what was the point in buying Sanchez?
In three years time Martial will be 25yo world class player for some other club, while United will probably be looking for Sanchez replacement.
Why would you even buy another player for a position we already had to rotate two very good players?
Why wasn't this decision sanctioned by the board? If doesn't make any sense even from economical point of view, selling our 3rd/4th most valuable asset for 29yo who's very likely to be finished in 3-4 years. Getting a replacement will cost as twice as much in near future.
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Because the club is run by people that don't have a clue about football. Also because of Mourinho.
 
breakout67 said:
It's dangerous to develop ball reliance like Martial has. We've seen it with players like Ben Arfa and Queresma. They have a bag of tricks, and take the piss out of the other team with the ball, but lack footballing fundamentals.

The vast majority of a player's success comes from working on off-ball qualities both in attack and defense. An attacker that is always on the move, making the defenders second guess themselves, that is what all world class attackers are.

Martial is probably as talented as Mbappe, but Mbappe's game intelligence is so good. You can't pin him down, and if you gave him an inch of space he'd kill you. Martial seems quite easy to pin down, due to him coming short all the time and having a low work rate. It's a strange one because Martial is lightning quick, but it might just be that he doesn't see the game that way.
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Agree with all of this. Dunno when people are gonna learn that possessing footballing ability is not enough. Your application has to be equal if not better. And it's not down to a manager it's down to the player.
 
Too predictable. Keeps cutting in onto his right foot. You may have tricks, but defenders know what to expect and it makes life much easier for them.
 
Its hard to do much against a parked bus when the team as a whole is not incisive enough and giving you enough support, I thought he played well against West Brom. Much bigger goal threat than anyone else on the pitch when he was on.
 
Quite simply he won't 'make it ' at OT he is far far too inconsistent, he has played in brief spells and scored a couple of decent goals but if Utd can can anywhere near get decent money for him cash in.
And let's be honest the kid hasn't had a decent game for France.
It's a shame because he has bags of potential.
 
Openshaw53 said:
Quite simply he won't 'make it ' at OT he is far far too inconsistent, he has played in brief spells and scored a couple of decent goals but if Utd can can anywhere near get decent money for him cash in.
And let's be honest the kid hasn't had a decent game for France.
It's a shame because he has bags of potential.
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What do you mean by decent money? He has 1yr left, I know there is an option to extend him for another year, but does that not require the player agreeing to such? If yes, why will he agree to make it harder for him to leave the bad situation he is currently.

If we are honest, He hasnt been given that much of a chance and he can be devastating if given a chance.
 
I think he'll leave and go on to become an incredible player. This setup (how we play) just doesn't suit wide attackers because so much of Mou's focus is on defending as a team - for example, Sanchez is a great player but he's looked completely out of sorts - Martial, to his credit, has been good but inconsistent and Mou seems to have some new found love of dropping players like it's going out of style.

I genuinely think he's our best No9, it's just a shame Mou has a very specific way of playing that demands a Lukaku type spearhead.
 
I don't understand the obsession with Martial. Almost every time I've seen him this season he's been very average. He did score some good goals and is capable of making great runs and dribbles, but it's a very rare occurrence.
Literally every time he starts, he is disappointing. But one day he MIGHT be great - I don't buy it. If he wants to go, let him go.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I think he'll leave and go on to become an incredible player. This setup (how we play) just doesn't suit wide attackers because so much of Mou's focus is on defending as a team - for example, Sanchez is a great player but he's looked completely out of sorts - Martial, to his credit, has been good but inconsistent and Mou seems to have some new found love of dropping players like it's going out of style.

I genuinely think he's our best No9, it's just a shame Mou has a very specific way of playing that demands a Lukaku type spearhead.
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Same. I also see him as a number 9 and he might work better with less service than Lukaku since Martial has quick feet and is able to bring in other players better. Mata, Sanchez might be able to play fast one-two's with him which might make our attack more easier on the eye and might bring better results.

Do not want to go way off topic and Lukaku is not a bad player, but he is a player who needs service and better players around him to do have a good game.

He also is a Jose type of player who will always give his all and run through walls for him and for that reason he will never be dropped even if he is woefully out of form which he was. Unlike Martial and Rashford he is afforded the luxury of coming back in to form by playing regularly while Rashford and Martial even after scoring runs are on the bench and have to prove it all on the training ground.

If Martial leaves and becomes a better player somewhere else, it's going to cause a lot of heartache. Hope he signs a long term contract.
 
KGBhoy said:
I don't understand the obsession with Martial. Almost every time I've seen him this season he's been very average. He did score some good goals and is capable of making great runs and dribbles, but it's a very rare occurrence.
Literally every time he starts, he is disappointing. But one day he MIGHT be great - I don't buy it. If he wants to go, let him go.
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He's 22 years old and is already one of most prolific scorers in the league in his age group. Combine that with the fact that he is one of the only few players we have that can excite the fans. How are fans okay with allowing a player like that leave?
 
I think he's vastly overrated on here, but he's another victim of our system who will look much better when he's part of a team that isn't quite as ugly.
 
Damien said:
They got Morata for €20M. I doubt we'd sell Martial for €40M even with a buyback.
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Morata hadn't shown the same flashes of talent and juventus were in a very different position both financially and their standing on the global stage. They don't need to accept conditions for Martial, they can just sign him, or go after someone else

The clubs you could do that with are Inter, Valencia, Roma, Milan, Schalke, maybe Dortmund...but if he has offers from juventus or bayern, why should he accept stepping down?
 
Obviously a class talent we need to keep him. He’s given more freedom tonight and looks good going forward.

I saw a stat showing goals/assists per minute and he’s up there with the best.
 
The way people talking about our players lately... makes me wonder. You’d think we’re only above Liverpool and Tottenham by luck
 
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Still the only player in the side with the capabilities of beating a man and ghosting past defenders.
He has the capabilities of being a E Hazard type of player for us and a possible diamond.
Glad he played the full 90 mins tonight. Little things like this will boost his confidence. Jose needs to show him some love and he'll repay the faith.
Will be a travesty if he is shown the door.
 
We look so much better going forward with Martial on the left ahead of Sanchez, if Jose wants to play counter attacking football then surely an attacker that runs at the opposing defence with pace and power is what you want from your attackers ? Martial will be one of the best left sided players in Europe within the next year or two if he’s playing consistently and I’d start him over Sanchez until Sanchez pulls his finger out and shows the form of the previous two seasons when at Arsenal.
 
TBH I have become indifferent if Martial stays or goes. Tonight was a typical Martial performance and it's because he is just not a smart player. A perfect example was when he almost gave the ball away near the box towards the end. He gets the ball and has a few opportunities to pass the ball if he creates the right angles to either Blind or Fallaini. Instead he holds it too long and makes a casual pass to Jones. Just a stupid play. In attack his decisions are just so frustrating so often.

I think it's fair to say that every truly world-class player in the game is a smart player. Martial shows no signs of becoming a smart player.
 
He does great things so simply and complicates simple things horribly. Multiple times today he went into the opposition pass to make a pass that was intercepted by the first man. Playing time alone is not enough for this guy to excel. He needs a arm around the shoulder and a good coach to polish him. Unfortunately he will not get it at the bigger clubs like us or even other European giants. Teams like Monaco and Lyon would suit him much better.
 
GM K said:
Let me first say that this is a very good post. It's really enlightening. Thumbs up.

However, I think stats tend to be overrated or often not contextualized.

From many accounts, Ronaldo had a superb attitude and work ethics as a young player (and he still has it now at 33). At times, stats don't capture that. It has been said that he was often the first to turn up in training and the last to leave. Sir Alex has said and written much about Ronaldo's incredible drive to improve himself and become the best. He also obviously deified Sir Alex. When you have a player like that in your team, you hardly worry about stats. You see him as a rough diamond to be kept, refined and nurtured. Remember what Jose said about Lukaku when he was not scoring? He said he didn't care about the goal drought because Lukaku was giving a lot of himself to the team. For all their differences, Sir Alex and Jose have something in common: they are very big on loyalty and hard work ethics by their players.

On the other hand, even though I cannot claim that these are all facts, Martial seems to send out a different vibe and many of the news around him outside of his on-field performances, don't seem inspiring. I have also never heard anyone talk about him having an incredible work ethic or devotion to his craft. Maybe the coaching crew are not impressed with him despite his incredible talent.

I don't want to judge Martial. I like the kid and I think he can be really great but he has to take his opportunities and work very hard to be the best. And like Jose once said about him, he needs to listen more to his manager than to his agent.
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Excellent post.

Judging by this thread, you'd think Martial will suddenly blossom into a top mature professional with incredible work ethic the moment he leaves Old Trafford. Boy has talent but talent can only get you so far.
 
Is there anything to suggest Martial has some kind of a serious attitude problem aside from people micro analyzing games with preconceived notions?

Unless he's a real bad apple or something, we should not even consider selling him. It feels like people are looking for reasons to justify Jose's inability to get the best out of most of our attacking players.
 
Hitchez said:
Is there anything to suggest Martial has some kind of a serious attitude problem aside from people micro analyzing games with preconceived notions?

Unless he's a real bad apple or something, we should not even consider selling him. It feels like people are looking for reasons to justify Jose's inability to get the best out of most of our attacking players.
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It's baffling isn't it? The fact that United fans are cool with loosing him is interesting to me and excuses are being made about his workrate and general attitude but guess what? People have given the same opinion about Eden Hazard but that wouldn't stop him from being directly responsible for two epl titles in so many years.

Martial is no Hazard alright but if you were to name a player of ours who could grow to become such a player, you wouldn't look past Martial imo. A player who in his first season in England defied all odds against him (the big money tag, the new country and new culture and environment issues, previously an unknown quantity and so had pundits, journalists and the likes constantly suggest that he'd never make it etc etc).

A teen who carried his team on his back and was a ray of light in a rather uninspiring season. He possessed all the swagger, all the confidence, the ability, the phisique and the maturity to carry the team in his first season but never seemed to kick on. What happened to him in the seasons that followed?

Is that 1) he is now showing his true level or 2) there are underlying issues/scores to settle or 3) something in between point 1 and point 2 above. I'd say your guess is as good as mine because we may never truly know. But the thought that people are fine with seeing the back of him without being prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt or some insinuating that maybe Jose and Martial can't work together is baffling to say the least.
 
Hitchez said:
Is there anything to suggest Martial has some kind of a serious attitude problem aside from people micro analyzing games with preconceived notions?

Unless he's a real bad apple or something, we should not even consider selling him. It feels like people are looking for reasons to justify Jose's inability to get the best out of most of our attacking players.
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There is nothing to suggest a bad attitude. It's pretty simple with Martial, he needs to feel that the manager believes in him. He doesn't mind being given a bollocking as long as he knows it's for his own good. He explained already how strict LVG was with him, but that he was fine with this as he knew LVG wanted him to improve.
He actually responded to Mourinho's so called 'tough love', and forced himself into the team, only for Mourinho to break that trust the player was developing with him by getting Sanchez and shoving Martial out of the starting line up.
What that says to the player is that no matter what he does, the manager doesn't give a shit about being fair to him, hence the loss of confidence and consideration of a possible move.

People blindly allowing Mourinho to manipulate them into thinking certain players aren't good enough will regret it. Instead of acknowledging his limitations in regards to getting the best out of attacking players, he's spending his energy trying to convince fans that player a,b or c doesn't work hard enough:rolleyes: And some fans are falling for this.
The manager is untrustworthy and a narcissist, and will cause serious damage if he's allowed to dictate the direction of the club.
 
Jazz said:
There is nothing to suggest a bad attitude. It's pretty simple with Martial, he needs to feel that the manager believes in him. He doesn't mind being given a bollocking as long as he knows it's for his own good. He explained already how strict LVG was with him, but that he was fine with this as he knew LVG wanted him to improve.
He actually responded to Mourinho's so called 'tough love', and forced himself into the team, only for Mourinho to break that trust the player was developing with him by getting Sanchez and shoving Martial out of the starting line up.
What that says to the player is that no matter what he does, the manager doesn't give a shit about being fair to him, hence the loss of confidence and consideration of a possible move.

People blindly allowing Mourinho to manipulate them into thinking certain players aren't good enough will regret it. Instead of acknowledging his limitations in regards to getting the best out of attacking players, he's spending his energy trying to convince fans that player a,b or c doesn't work hard enough:rolleyes: And some fans are falling for this.
The manager is untrustworthy and a narcissist, and will cause serious damage if he's allowed to dictate the direction of the club.
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Agree with this.

The way Manager and the club treat him dont help him at all.

He was just finding his role into the team yet suddenly he was sent right into the bench because of Sanchez signing, how this could help his confidence.
 
Jazz said:
There is nothing to suggest a bad attitude. It's pretty simple with Martial, he needs to feel that the manager believes in him. He doesn't mind being given a bollocking as long as he knows it's for his own good. He explained already how strict LVG was with him, but that he was fine with this as he knew LVG wanted him to improve.
He actually responded to Mourinho's so called 'tough love', and forced himself into the team, only for Mourinho to break that trust the player was developing with him by getting Sanchez and shoving Martial out of the starting line up.
What that says to the player is that no matter what he does, the manager doesn't give a shit about being fair to him, hence the loss of confidence and consideration of a possible move.

People blindly allowing Mourinho to manipulate them into thinking certain players aren't good enough will regret it. Instead of acknowledging his limitations in regards to getting the best out of attacking players, he's spending his energy trying to convince fans that player a,b or c doesn't work hard enough:rolleyes: And some fans are falling for this.
The manager is untrustworthy and a narcissist, and will cause serious damage if he's allowed to dictate the direction of the club.
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Exactly this

Roeindo said:
Agree with this.

The way Manager and the club treat him dont help him at all.

He was just finding his role into the team yet suddenly he was sent right into the bench because of Sanchez signing, how this could help his confidence.
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And this.
The lad was one of the brightest prospects in the world. Had to change the number because of Zlatan, then was trying to find his feet on the left flank, finally did, and then was moved due to Sanchez. Here's hoping he stays and Jose helps him realize his potential.
 
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