Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Raoul said:
the very act of interacting with the public is perceived as a life and death security dilemma
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its not a life and death dilemma. police and the people who make excuses for them act like it is a uniquely dangerous job that we must give special dispensation to but the truth is that its not that dangerous
 
Top 10 deadliest jobs:

1. Logging workers: 128.8 (deaths per 100.000)
2. Fishers and related fishing workers: 117
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers: 53.4
4. Roofers: 40.5
5. Structural iron and steel workers: 37
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors: 27.1
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers: 23
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers: 22.1
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers: 21.3
10. Construction laborers: 17.4

Cops rank quite a bit below that with 12.6.

Most dangerous by far is being president btw, with 8 out of 44 dying in office.

Guess there's still hope..
 
Eboue said:
its not a life and death dilemma. police and the people who make excuses for them act like it is a uniquely dangerous job that we must give special dispensation to but the truth is that its not that dangerous
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Cops operating in a highly armed society are operating in a daily security dilemma that changes their mindset. You can't expect someone to do a stable job when they themselves fear for their lives in a daily basis. That's different from most other developed countries where guns (for example) are not a relevant factor in every day law enforcement.
 
KirkDuyt said:
I know it's not, but I thought maybe it came across that way.

As I explained above, I took offense, because there are some cops in my family who deal with people that are convinced all cops are bastards on a regular basis. That there's a systemic problem within the US police (or US in general) with abuse and racism is not something I'm denying, doubly so, because I've never set foot there myself. I'm simply saying that assuming the worst by generalization is bad in any situation. And perhaps I'm naive, but I'm sure even in the US of A there's a good amount of cops that have the public's best interest at heart.

Perhaps you're right and I'm a naive moron though, I'm not above admitting that.
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You would be right in distinguishing that there is a systemic problem in the US. That alone tells us that cops themselves aren't the problem - its a broader issue of living in a heavily armed society that makes cops behave like they are working in a security dilemma. If you remove the weaponized climate of American society off the table, you would see far less situations where participants lose the plot on daily interactions with one another.
 
TheReligion said:
Does it have to be rated out of life/death though?

What's the figures for assaults?
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That's Raoul's point I think. Cops are under a lot of stress. While the actual amount of cops getting killed is relatively low, there's still the constant thread of a suspect being armed, especially in a country where it's legal to have carry a gun. Aside from that you can get assaulted or faced with difficult decisions where there's a lot at stake.

Hell, I get stressed when my boss yells at me, can't imagine how stressed I'd be if someone tried to beat me up. That's why a lot of people can't handle the job of a police officer, which I think results in people that can't handle the job, but do it anyway tend to become cnuts. The job turns them into who they are, not the other way around.

imo.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Top 10 deadliest jobs:

1. Logging workers: 128.8 (deaths per 100.000)
2. Fishers and related fishing workers: 117
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers: 53.4
4. Roofers: 40.5
5. Structural iron and steel workers: 37
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors: 27.1
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers: 23
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers: 22.1
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers: 21.3
10. Construction laborers: 17.4

Cops rank quite a bit below that with 12.6.

Most dangerous by far is being president btw, with 8 out of 44 dying in office.

Guess there's still hope..
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The obvious distinction being that none of the ten involve interacting with armed criminals who may want to kill you.
 
KirkDuyt said:
That's Raoul's point I think. Cops are under a lot of stress. While the actual amount of cops getting killed is relatively low, there's still the constant thread of a suspect being armed, especially in a country where it's legal to have carry a gun. Aside from that you can get assaulted or faced with difficult decisions where there's a lot at stake.

Hell, I get stressed when my boss yells at me, can't imagine how stressed I'd be if someone tried to beat me up. That's why a lot of people can't handle the job of a police officer, which I think results in people that can't handle the job, but do it anyway tend to become cnuts. The job turns them into who they are, not the other way around.

imo.
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There's definitely a stress factor just as there would be in most other professions, except in this one there is also a life and death logic of self-preservation inherent in police work. There was a huge controversy about American police buying used military hardware to arm their police stations a couple of years back. That was stopped by Obama but has since been restarted under Trump.
 
What a load of shit excuses Raoul.

We have plenty cops that operate perfectly well under the daily pressure of their jobs. (Just like with any other job)

Those who can't, need to be fired and get another job.
 
George Owen said:
What a load of shit excuses Raoul.

We have plenty cops that operate perfectly well under the daily pressure of their jobs. (Just like with any other job)

Those who can't, need to be fired and get another job.
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Cops that break the rules should obviously be prosecuted, just like citizens who do the same. You can't however have a violent society that is stuffed to the gills with firearms and not expect that to seap into the citizen/criminal/police officer discourse. They are all part of the same issue.
 
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George Owen said:
What a load of shit excuses Raoul.

We have plenty cops that operate perfectly well under the daily pressure of their jobs. (Just like with any other job)

Those who can't, need to be fired and get another job.
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This. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
 
Raoul said:
We as a society expect these people to behave with a degree of civility but at the same time create the societal conditions whereby cops feel the need to to self-militarize as if they are operating in third world police state.
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Who's we? Last I heard you guys voted overwhelmingly for stricter gun laws.
Eboue said:
roofing is like seven times deadlier than being a police officer. spare me the "need to self-militarize" excuses
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Indeed.
TheReligion said:
Does it have to be rated out of life/death though?

What's the figures for assaults?
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In this instance it does because the justification is usually that they fear for their lives.
 
Raoul said:
Who is you guys ? And when did this gun law vote take place ?
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I believe it was CNN polling. Unless you're saying I'm wrong and you guys are in favor of what is happening wrt gun laws? You tell me.
 
MJJ said:
How does every other country manages then @Raoul?
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Different societies have different gun laws. Among highly developed democratic countries in North America, Europe, Australia plus Japan, Korea etc., they seem to have a better grip on police/citizen interactions. They also all have stricter firearm laws and stronger societal safety nets where life isn't a horse race of winners and losers, and not every household needs a firearm to "protect" it from another person with nefarious motives who may also have a gun. Being a cop in the latter construct is obviously going to lead to more problems than we see in the other countries I listed. Naturally, any cop (or citizen) who strays from the rules should be held to account, but we can't overlook the broader systemic issues at play.
 
@Raoul is talking alot of sense.

People seem to be overlooking the wider cultural issues within the United States when it comes to firearms when discussing trigger happy US Law Enforcement Officers.
 
The same posters are in the gun control thread saying the laws are mental. And it doesn't explain why it's mostly black men who get brutalised and killed for no reason. Or why the police lies in every single one of these incidents.
 
Raoul said:
There's definitely a stress factor just as there would be in most other professions, except in this one there is also a life and death logic of self-preservation inherent in police work. There was a huge controversy about American police buying used military hardware to arm their police stations a couple of years back. That was stopped by Obama but has since been restarted under Trump.
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From the few incidents I've seen, there seems to be a lack of proper training.

A tendency to overreact in confrontations with wrongdoers. A too ready resort to firearms. American police often seem to behave as if their lives were in danger when there's no discernible threat.
 
Will Absolute said:
From the few incidents I've seen, there seems to be a lack of proper training.

A tendency to overreact in confrontations with wrongdoers. A too ready resort to firearms. American police often seem to behave as if their lives were in danger when there's no discernible threat.
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Training is important, but it only goes so far. And frankly, working in a heavily armed country, they have to always assume their lives are in danger even in seemingly routine situations. The moment they let their guard down they could get killed. When both citizens and police are operating in a security dilemma, bad things are bound to happen.

 
I appreciate the tough job they do. These death job stats don't really mean much when there's many other forms of violence, threats and injuries they face.

Thing is this latest situation is not going to help police on the job. It's another wedge between the police and the public. It looks like absolute thuggery. I would've thought in the current climate that officers would be more mindful. They're putting fellow officers at risk and erroding basic trust in society.
 
KirkDuyt said:
That's Raoul's point I think. Cops are under a lot of stress. While the actual amount of cops getting killed is relatively low, there's still the constant thread of a suspect being armed, especially in a country where it's legal to have carry a gun. Aside from that you can get assaulted or faced with difficult decisions where there's a lot at stake.

Hell, I get stressed when my boss yells at me, can't imagine how stressed I'd be if someone tried to beat me up. That's why a lot of people can't handle the job of a police officer, which I think results in people that can't handle the job, but do it anyway tend to become cnuts. The job turns them into who they are, not the other way around.

imo.
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Have to somewhat disagree.

I think the fact that the police have become militarized in weaponry and mindset also attracts a certain type of person, one who looks at the job as an outlet for their ‘desires.’ Looking back on the Mesa cop video where he gunned down the crawling victim, for the first time it stuck out to me how much like CoD (or other first person shooter games) that was. If it struck me so viscerally seeing that video, it has to be attractive to those who want to force project in the line of work and mostly ‘legally,’ in that they often get away with such force projection.

I’m not saying that the profession isn’t stressful overall and often jades people who work in it, callusing them enough to cross the ultimate line at times. That is obviously a cruel shame. But, the bloodlust, lack of humanity, and MMA dork mentality that the negative brand of cop so wantonly displays is already in the person who signs up to be a cop. That is tough to negate and needs to be addressed during the interview process.
 
But the theme goes on in how people are treated in the justice system, in prison and after they get out of prison. Likely they are treated by society with disdain before they even turn to crime.
 
Raoul said:
Different societies have different gun laws. Among highly developed democratic countries in North America, Europe, Australia plus Japan, Korea etc., they seem to have a better grip on police/citizen interactions. They also all have stricter firearm laws and stronger societal safety nets where life isn't a horse race of winners and losers, and not every household needs a firearm to "protect" it from another person with nefarious motives who may also have a gun. Being a cop in the latter construct is obviously going to lead to more problems than we see in the other countries I listed. Naturally, any cop (or citizen) who strays from the rules should be held to account, but we can't overlook the broader systemic issues at play.
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I feel like that is an issue that America has inflicted on itself with fanatic support for guns and even then the militarisation of the police is playing a part as well. The police are viewing themselves differently which is being reflected in the way they are responding to incidents.

You cant pull all the blame on the gun culture like with that girl who got assaulted on the beach or the guy in the toilet stall, there was no threat of violence.
 
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the gun culture argument also ignores which demographic of america has most of the guns and parades them in public most often; it's not the demographic that most consistently find themselves on the wrong end of a psychopathic officer
 
Silva said:
the gun culture argument also ignores which demographic of america has most of the guns and parades them in public most often; it's not the demographic that most consistently find themselves on the wrong end of a psychopathic officer
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The demographics are irrelevant you have that many guns floating about. The pro-gun advocates who blame gun violence on illegal guns are also in the wrong. You simply can't have 300m guns saturated in society and not expect second order effects to ripple across the landscape.
 
Raoul said:
The demographics are irrelevant you have that many guns floating about. The pro-gun advocates who blame gun violence on illegal guns are also in the wrong. You simply can't have 300m guns saturated in society and not expect second order effects to ripple across the landscape.
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if police brutality could be explained by officers being on edge about the omnipresence of guns white men would face similar levels of unprovoked violence, they don't
 
Silva said:
if police brutality could be explained by officers being on edge about the omnipresence of guns white men would face similar levels of unprovoked violence, they don't
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The two aren't remotely related since white men aren't involved in securitization responsibilities like cops are. When you are engaging with people who may want to murder you, it changes the psychology by which you approach interacting with them. This can be applied to both cops and citizens who are stopped by them.
 
Raoul said:
The two aren't remotely related since white men aren't involved in securitization responsibilities like cops are. When you are engaging with people who may want to murder you, it changes the psychology by which you approach interacting with them. This can be applied to both cops and citizens who are stopped by them.
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if you're claiming that the police perceive black men as wanting to murder them, that's clearly a cultural problem within the police not a result of guns alone
 
Silva said:
if you're claiming that the police perceive black men as wanting to murder them, that's clearly a cultural problem within the police not a result of guns alone
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I don't think its a black or white issue since there are plenty of cops and suspects who aren't black or white. Its simply a securitization issue of two parties seeking to protect one another from the other side who may want to harm them. It can be applied to cops such as in the video I posted a bit up the page as well as among citizens who fear cops may cause them harm. That doesn't absolve the participants if they break the rules of course.
 
Raoul said:
I don't think its a black or white issue since there are plenty of cops and suspects who aren't black or white. Its simply a securitization issue of two parties seeking to protect one another from the other side who may want to harm them. It can be applied to cops such as in the video I posted a bit up the page as well as among citizens who fear cops may cause them harm. That doesn't absolve the participants if they break the rules of course.
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it's not a coincidence that black people are 7 times more likely to be killed by the police

they're more likely to get stopped and searched for no reason, more likely to be brutalised, face higher rates of arrest for crimes than white people committing the same crimes etc. etc. american police are rabidly racist
 
Silva said:
it's not a coincidence that black people are 7 times more likely to be killed by the police

they're more likely to get stopped and searched for no reason, more likely to be brutalised, face higher rates of arrest for crimes than white people committing the same crimes etc. etc. american police are rabidly racist
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They are also five times more likely to be incarcerated for breaking the law which is is a broader societal problem and not something that is the responsibility for everyday beat cops to resolve.
 
Raoul said:
They are also five times more likely to be incarcerated for breaking the law which is is a broader societal problem and not something that is the responsibility for everyday beat cops to resolve.
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yes, the justice system is also incredibly racist, that doesn't absolve the police part in this
 
Silva said:
yes, the justice system is also incredibly racist, that doesn't absolve the police part in this
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Like I said, there are problems in the broader system that cops have to deal with. If they break the rules they will have to deal with the consequences but we can't expect them to resolve the failures of society at large at the street level.
 
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