Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
He's too busy making Jordan Peterson memes to stray into the Brexit thread.
Maybe we should go back in time to the 19th century when everyone was equal, there were no poor people and wealth was equally distributed amongst the population.
But by Jove, Britain ruled the waves!
At least no-one had a smart phone or a TV and life expectancy was much shorter.
But by Jove, Britain ruled the waves!
At least no-one had a smart phone or a TV and life expectancy was much shorter.
Is there any data for this ? Who are these people ? Have you got a annoying family member who's just got into lefty politics ? I honestly don't know who your are talking about here. Someone with trotsky as their twitter profile calling a journalist a twat for criticising Corbyn doesn't equally a large voting base, there just isn't millions and millions of leninists you seem to think there are.
If you actually listen to people on the Left( politicians, activists & writers) then there's isn't any shamming, talk of incoming utopia or waiting for the working class to rise up etc but actual constructive talk of how we've got here into this political mess, what are the best efforts to engage with people and how to get and keep together a workable coalition of voters to get out of this mess.
The thing that seems to be alienating people in this thread anyway is Corbyn position on Brexit but for the millionth time it's mostly out of political need. Does anyone actual think that if Corbyn being a bit more pro Remain would get him into power he wouldn't do it. But I will say if liberals find it alienating or off putting that Corbyn and the Left isn't more pro EU or that Corbyn doesn't turn up at Pro EU rallies, well tough shit. Yeah it might be nice that your trip to France is hassle free but that doesn't take away the fact the EU is a undemocratic and deeply massively racist institution(Shock horror but these 'liberal' europeans are no better than Trump when it comes to racism)
Of course it's not working out but so far the British Left(And little bits in the USA)is the best West can offer. Neoliberalism in terms of the political space is completely fecking done and over, which is actually really really fecking scary(To quote one of those vanilla hipsters - “The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born”). But there isn't another answer, there isn't a simply policy or change of party leadership that suddenly gives this new left easy election wins. So people have got a choice to either pick between ethic nationalism or a new but very weak radical left social democracy. That of course doesn't mean be uncritical but it does mean realising that politics has actually change.
And yeah I'm very supportive of the policy of calling Graham linehan a cnut although that has more to do with my viewing experience of his 'comedy' show Count Arthur.
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Can we all agree that Nigel Farage is a cnut?
Cue Oscie!
Don’t blame it on the sunshine, don’t blame it on the moonlight - blame it on the Blairites.
Oh come on, it's fecking hilarious that they spent months saying you shouldn't listen to Corbyn on anything, gave Alan Johnson the job of heading the remain campaign and are now crying that nobody listened to Corbyn at the referendum.
Almost as funny as insisting Brexit needs to be stopped because it might lead to austerity, whilst marching alongside the likes of Chris Leslie who backed austerity until about 3 weeks ago and Vince Cable/Anna Soubry who have revelled in it for years. Only missing Nick Clegg crowdsurfing.
I don't think history swings back that quickly. From what I understand in the UK, there was a commitment to proper safety nets from 1945-1978, while the fight was about union strength (the left lost). Then from 1978 there's been a period where you look more at cost-effectiveness or rationalising or privatising the same resources, and the fight shifted to social attitudes (liberals mostly won). A series of catastrophes beginning on 9/11 or 2008 (depending on how you want to count it) have changed the economic situation and eventually changed immigration (which will finish liberal social attitudes soon) but haven't (yet) produced new politics.
As I've explained, it's not winning the wrong way that is a problem. If Nick was around, he could give you details of financial deregulation, NHS privatisation under Blair, and every single person knows Iraq. In the US, bank deregulation, drastic welfare cuts, and increase in sentencing were legacies of Clinton - that is when "we won." You can draw a direct line from those decisions to where we are today. "Our win" created the conditions for this defeat.
More recently, the combined work of Socialist Hollande and Third-Way Macron has broken the back of French labour, and it is likely that the next fight will be between right and far-right. In Canada, woke bae Trudeau is likely to be beaten from the right.
As long as we operate under neoliberalism, the wins for nominally left-wing parties aren't wins - they're ways to stop the bleeding temporarily even as the monster on the other side grows.
Your next post, about the privilege of sitting out:
So that entire rant about Harambe and Stein and privilege - how d'you square that view of history with basic facts about voters?
What about looking at the policies of the Obama presidency, in handling the financial crisis: https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/obama-foreclosure-crisis-wealth-inequality
Win!
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If Momentum are starting to swing behind the idea of a 2nd referendum will the next battle ground for the Labour party be: 'are Momentum fawning enough towards Corbyn or should those Blairite cnuts be expelled?'?
Yeah. But I think any politician who at best says nothing and at worse nods and agrees when he's on his "it's the immigrants!" tirades isn't much better either. Whatever terminology you want to use; liberal, left - it's depressing just how missing in action they've been in this massive lurch to the right we've seen in politics in this country in the last couple of years. Labour have effectively left the stage when the country needed them most, leaving behind angry extreme sycophants who just shout at people who dare to notice the party isn't there any more.
'Livid' Michael Gove rips up EU customs partnership report
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44668572
Just can't imagine Gove being livid.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44668572
Just can't imagine Gove being livid.
At least it saves the EU ripping it up.
Any stats to back that up?
Could be going off piste here but it pisses me off when politics has to be dumbed-down for young people. It's not that difficult to get a vague sense of the issues of the day, you don't really need Rick Edwards and June Sarpong hosting a patronising BBC Three discussion programme that might as well be called: "Young people are think as shit, so we're breaking down this election for you as if you were 11 and watching John Craven's Newsround"
The "Dark Ages" is really a misnomer, and it's a bit of a myth that it was some kind of technological and cultural historical gap. Which I think might make your argument stronger!
Never got the 'it's what was voted for democratically and therefore must be carried out' argument, else presumably Labour would be voting for the implementation of every Tory manifesto pledge for the same reason.
It’s not dumbed down for young people, it’s dumbs down for dumb people.
You think Piers Morgan leading a political debate is aimed at intellectual adults? It’s the same thing, there are plenty of politically engaged, bright youth out there and they get their political fix from the same sources as “adults”, they also then apply critical thinking to it which is half the issue with the less bright lot.
They’re happy enough to parrot what Farage and Robinson say because they trust them. It’s not that they trust them as a single source of truth either, it’s that they trust they share an agenda and they’re smart enough forward that agenda as long as it gets support.
yeah those stats are bs, they were released by sky who just used the 2015 election turnout numbers
Those stats have been throughout debunked.
Do you have the stats to prove this?
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eople-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high
all the links you're posting are from the day after the election when people* were using old data to extrapolate
*sky did it first and everyone quoted them
A test sample of 2002 people is quite small but even that proves my point. 24% less young people voted than people over the age of 65 and 10% less than 55-64.
Voting turnout was almost identical from ages 18-54, so unless we're going to call a 50 year old bloke about to have a quadruple bypass a kid, it's not on the kids.
And if that 50 year old bloke was 3:1 times more likely to vote remain then I would blame him for not turning up as well.
Any way it was a stupid statement made after coming back from the pub on a Friday night so I don't know why I'm even trying to defend it.
If you find the original tweet Sky Data posted their methodology in reply to it. It was a figure arrived at by polling people before the vote, taking their stated intention to vote out of 10 and then applying a filter to the data to make it fit voter demographics in the 2015 election.
It was complete guesswork.
Corbyn just said on TV he can negotiate a better deal because he has developed good relationships with socialist parties across Europe.
Is it just me or does that only work if socialist governments are in power?
Is it just me or does that only work if socialist governments are in power?
Well that seals it, the EU are going to change the rules just for him. What a spineless moron.
Corbyn is more lovable, he looks like a friendly dad whereas May looks doesn't look or act human. Anyway wouldn't negotiating a better deal actually been easier if we had already solved the issues of freedom of movement and the Irish border? We're leaving it so late that there is far less time to negotiate the best deal when two huge issues still remain unsolved.
What does Corbyn's looks or personality have to do with the deal.
Freedom of movement is not negotiable and the Irish Border is either hard (cliff) or not (CU/SM)
I'm still bemused at what both Brexieters and Remainers expect they can negotiate.
The first part wasn't mean to be taken seriously. After that I was trying to say that lack of progress in talks only makes negotiating harder, especially when the UK is refusing to concede that certain things are non-negotiable. The UK cannot leave the SM and CU and have a soft border with Ireland. How can the UK and the EU negotiate further on thousands of issues when it is unclear which Brexit the UK will choose?
Yes this has been the problem all along, kicking the can down the road.
But these first so-called negotiations are really the EU asking which (hard or soft) does the UK want which they still haven't answered. Other than citizens rights and the UK being told what the consequences of their actions are there's not much else to negotiate.
The future relationship afterwards will be the negotiations but that won't be until after the UK has left.
I think Brexitieres somehow think that by having no deal and going to WTO rules suddenly countires will be falling over themselves to do amazing deals with us and the EU will be forced to grovel back to us and beg us to trade more with them giving up access to services and especially financial markets with no free movement in exchange
I think remainiers think that by having no deal it will be so bad for the economy we will have to have another referendum and that somehow europe will just let us back in with a rebate and no requirement to joing the euro
My gut feel - we will fudge a deal somehow for a transition period that will basically be not far from wto terms but giving people / businesses time to put paperwork in place... but ultimatley we will still manage to cnut it up (what was it may said no PM would agree the backstop position that well as its the back stop position has kinda been agreed and as we know untill its all agreed noting is agreed - so long story short it will fall apart)
say 10 years down the line when the economy is limping along and the pound is approx equal in value to the euro I fully expect another referendum this time to join the EU (but with no opt outs and we loose the pound) - so yeah a decade from here everybody will be seeing (cue Mark Kermode impression) "Danny Dyer" as some wise pundit and will basically agree... cameron = twat
I'd agree with most of that but to get the transition period a definitive decision has to be taken now/shortly and that decision will define the outcome of soft or hard but the hard will start in March.
We won’t vote to go back in in 10 years time if we are limping along as you say. I won’t be doing anyway.
Demographics would seem to very stringly suggest otherwise - though of course it depends how economies etc perform in that period but personally I think certainly in the next 20 years we will be back (well if europe will let is which I think isnt certain depending how much we throw our toys out of the pram over the next few months / years)
Referring back to the 2015 election
When people voted they voted for their MP.
Unlike in France for example where you vote directly for the President and every vote counts , in the UK you are actually only voting for your MP.
So if one voted Tory you had a 57% chance of having a pro-Remain MP and if you voted Labour you had a 95% chance you would have a pro-Remain MP.
However, leaders of both parties are vigorously Anti-Remain and directing their MPs who you voted for to go against their beliefs .
In effect there are two dictators and there is not even a sniff of democracy anywhere in British politics.