Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Sweet Square said:
I'm pretty sure Labour is the now the biggest social democratic party in terms of member numbers in Europe but even if not member numbers have exploded under Corbyn.

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And this
2017 and the curious demise of Europe's centre-left
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...and-the-curious-demise-of-europes-centre-left

You might want to get out that bubble Oscie.
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You're right. Who cares what else is happening because the party's membership is now comparable to the size of John Major's Tory party in the mid 1990s when it was riddled with sleaze, divided over Europe and on its way to a crushing, landslide election defeat?

Have you got any bunting or shall I nip to the shops?
 
See I think a party that wasn't completely irrelevant to the biggest political debate we have ever had or are ever likely to have again in what remains in the lifetime of anyone here, would be more useful. A party that wasn't only doing a cracking job of holding the government's feet to the fire but were actually so effective that through a deployment of intelligent, popular and sensible policies combined with a comprehensive, grown-up and effective media campaign could have the accumulative effect of actually shaping government policy and changing the direction of the country for the better.

Instead we have: membership numbers and crowd sizes. And a supporter base that demonstrably does not give a shit that this is all it has and could not care less about anything else, no matter what the Tories do or how disastrous Brexit is. There's a complete apathy towards anything that doesn't involve noticing someone has been critical of Jeremy Corbyn.
 
Smores said:
None of that was in the guardian article i took the above quotes from but it doesn't change my point at all it only furthers it. I've seen numerous commentary to the same effect, that criticism of Israel is seen as a guise for anti-jewish rhetoric and thus must be censored.

That makes very little sense from the sidelines in particular when the accusations are against a mainstream party being accused of institutional anti-semitism.
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Again, read this:https://www.theguardian.com/comment...wish-anger-labour-listen-antisemitism-opinion
 
Oscie said:
See I think a party that wasn't completely irrelevant to the biggest political debate we have ever had or are ever likely to have again in what remains in the lifetime of anyone here, would be more useful. A party that wasn't only doing a cracking job of holding the government's feet to the fire but were actually so effective that through a deployment of intelligent, popular and sensible policies combined with a comprehensive, grown-up and effective media campaign could have the accumulative effect of actually shaping government policy and changing the direction of the country for the better.
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This is where I say you voted Lib Dem again, right?

So, to get Oscie's backing, you just don't turn up to votes on Brexit because you're busy organising a centrist party 2.0 or waffling on about the perils of homosexuals. Or go back a few years and quite literally help the government pass things that were so controversial, they didn't even put them in their manifesto or even the coalition agreement the Lib Dems signed up to. That'll keep the government's feet to the fire.
 
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nickm said:
Read this: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...wish-anger-labour-listen-antisemitism-opinion
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I did earlier today

So yes, maybe that editorial printed in the Jewish newspapers was over the top
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There was no maybe about it. This has driven by the driven by the desire to stop criticism of Israel.


People who proudly proclaim their love for human rights and democracy, the amazing wonder that is the enlightened judeo-Christian west, forget it when it comes to Israels crimes. A few mealy mouthed words for the dying palestinians, some waffle about a two state solution that will never come, and if that doesn't work as an answer, scream antisemitism to shut down any debate, lest they have to face their own rank hypocrisy.

The IHRA definition of antisemitism has taken on a reverence greater then that reserved for the Torah it seems. People follow what they will of the latter, the former is now untouchable and unquestionable
 
Mozza said:
I did earlier today



There was no maybe about it. This has driven by the driven by the desire to stop criticism of Israel.


People who proudly proclaim their love for human rights and democracy, the amazing wonder that is the enlightened judeo-Christian west, forget it when it comes to Israels crimes. A few mealy mouthed words for the dying palestinians, some waffle about a two state solution that will never come, and if that doesn't work as an answer, scream antisemitism to shut down any debate, lest they have to face their own rank hypocrisy.

The IHRA definition of antisemitism has taken on a reverence greater then that reserved for the Torah it seems. People follow what they will of the latter, the former is now untouchable and unquestionable
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Nobody says Israel cannot be criticised. It’s when people blame Jews in general for what Israel is doing, as if the Jewish community is responsibe for israel’s actions, that’s ‘political antisemitism’.

This conflation of backing the idea of a Jewish homeland, which probably most Jews do, and supporting the actions of the current Jewish political regime, which many Jews do not, is where this racism is getting a foothold to grow in the Labour Party.
 
nickm said:
Nobody says Israel cannot be criticised. It’s when people blame Jews in general for what Israel is doing, as if the Jewish community is responsibe for israel’s actions, that’s ‘political antisemitism’.

This conflation of backing the idea of a Jewish homeland, which probably most Jews do, and supporting the actions of the current Jewish political regime, which many Jews do not, is where this racism is getting a foothold to grow in the Labour Party.
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Really? Nobody?
 
Quick reminder that polling shows labour members are far less anti semitic than in 2015. The idea that anti semitism is growing in the party is just false.
 
Sweet Square said:
Quick reminder that polling shows labour members are far less anti semitic than in 2015. The idea that anti semitism is growing in the party is just false.
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Quick reminder that British Jews categorically don’t agree, and really they are the ones who ought to know.
 
Sweet Square said:
You've asked all of them, well fair play that must of took you some time.
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Yeah you’re not going to be very good at this.

I think when the major Jewish papers, all the key religious leaders, many high profile Jewish journos, MPs and other similar community leaders all get together and say the same frigging thing within a few days of each other, then maybe just maybe you ought to do them the courtesy of listening rather than try to take weak pot shots.
 
Dobba said:
And nobody says you can't criticise Israel. He's been busy.
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I think that is an interpretation that would suit you. You’d love this to be about silencing criticism of Israel because hey, that is somehing a corbynite could really get self righteous about, and we all know how much they get off on that, but it is not. It is about using Israel as a stick to beat Jews with.
 
nickm said:
I think that is an interpretation that would suit you. You’d love this to be about silencing criticism of Israel because hey, that somehing a corbyite could really get self righteous about, and we all know how much they get off on that, but it is not. It is about using Israel as a stick to beat Jews with.
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That 'nobody is saying you can't criticise Israel' lasted long then.
 
Dobba said:
That 'nobody is saying you can't criticise Israel' lasted long then.
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Huh?

Nobody is saying that you can’t criticise Israel. But certain kinds of criticism, those which are really just sticks to beat Jews with, are clearly antisemitic and should be recognised as such. Thats what the Jewish papers were saying.

However many in the Labour Party seem to think this is about Jews saying you can’t criticise Israel, and who knows, maybe that suits their own sense of self righteousness (or who knows, latent anti Jewish prejudice) to believe that. But that to me is a basic misunderstanding of the argument being made.

So no, nobody is saying you can’t criticise Israel although some people don’t want to accept that.
 
You can say that you can criticise Israel without being antisemitic but the only oxygen their argument has relies on them hearing you saying you can't criticise Israel without being antisemitic. So no matter how many times you say that you can criticise Israel without being antisemitic they hear "You can't criticise Israel without being antisemitic'
 
What consultations with the Jewish community did the Labour party carry out when deciding to redact articles from the IHRA definition of antisemitism?

Is there going to be a another Shami-sham in which she 'independently investigates' the conduct of the party led by a man upon whom she relies on for a job and finds that there's absolutely noting untoward to see here, again?
 
Dobba said:
Hopefully someone can let these people know that it isn't about stifling criticism of Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/antisemitism-ihra-definition-jewish-writers
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If the Labour party wanted to prioritise antisemitism by choosing a bespoke definition then it could have listened to the full diversity of the Jewish community. We did speak out – loudly. Jews and allies stridently called on the Labour NEC to consult widely. This did not happen.

We can criticise the Israeli government, just as we can the British one, and the IHRA carefully defines boundaries of criticism. Tampering with these lines, as Labour has done, legitimises comments and actions way outside those boundaries.
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Yet you appear to have submitted the article for consideration as if you genuinely think it's full of opinion that the IHRA was flawed because everyone agrees it meant you can't criticise Israel, whereas in fact two authors made the point that the IHRA allows for criticism of Israel.
 
Oscie said:
Yet you appear to have submitted the article for consideration as if you genuinely think it's full of opinion that the IHRA was flawed because everyone agrees it meant you can't criticise Israel, whereas in fact two authors made the point that the IHRA allows for criticism of Israel.
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Now do the others featured.

Also, please don't try and read my mind and tell me what I 'genuinely think', you struggle to avoid contradicting yourself without moving your talents on to others.
 
nickm said:
The major Jewish papers,
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The reaction from the major jewish paper is laughable ''Corbyn poses 'existential threat'' is up there with Corbyn will turn the country into red flag waving trotskyists



nickm said:
all the key religious leaders
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The Jewish Board of deputies for example

Arkush, the Chair of the Board of Jewish Deputies, declared Jewdas a “source of virulent antisemitism” and “a group that puts out racism”, despite the fact they’re a Jewish group of committed anti-fascists.

How a man who wasn’t long ago congratulating Bigot-in-Chief Donald Trump on his election to the White House can pass judgement is almost laughable – although it should never be claimed that his dodgy politics restrict him from being a part of the Jewish faith.
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Yeah clamming jews who disagree are anti semitic isn't a good look is it. The Board Of deputies also blamed Hamas in regards to the recent event of Israel murdering Palestine protestors. Which caused hundred of jews to sign petition going against the Board Of Deputies, do these not count then ?


http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com...-criticising-board-of-deputies-gaza-response/

Signatories including Labour’s National Executive Committee member Rhea Wolfson and Jewish Labour Movement vice-chair Sarah Sackman said: “The Jewish community has a wide variety of perspectives and opinions when it comes to Israel, and it is incumbent upon the Board to represent that.”

The letter then called on the Board “to immediately reassess the procedures used to issue this ill-conceived and un-nuanced statement and to put in place a plan that will ensure that future statements will truly represent the community”.

Likewise, Liberal Judaism said “we deeply regret that Israel has not shown the necessary restraint” and that “the Board’s credibility as the voice of British Jewry depends wholly on its willingness to listen to, hear from and reflect the values of all sections of the community”.
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nickm said:
many high profile Jewish journos,
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I'm not what your point is here. Just because their high profile journos doesn't mean the view is worth more to listen than any other jew.

But even with that said Stephen Pollard editor of the jewish chronicle who very critical of the labour party is also a man who seems to have a bit of a liking for Farge when he's attacking muslims and in fact Pollard and the far right paper the Spectator had to issue a apology and pay damages after referring to a Islam Expo as a racist, fascist and genocidal organisation (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...d-apologise-to-islam-expo-and-pay-damages/)so hardly someone with a calm look on things. This far right nationalist poltics

nickm said:
MPs
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A MP like Margaret Hodge ? Of course Hodge would know racism where she see it like the time where she called for ''migrant housing rethink''

https://www.patreon.com/posts/20193104
Hodge spent most of her time legitimising BNP arguments.

The background to this is well-described by Daniel Trilling, author of by far the best book on the BNP's rise throughout the 2000s. Barking and Dagenham at the time was suffering from a terrible housing crisis. It was also suffering the fall-out from de-industrialisation, including the loss of local car manufacturing. And spatially and socially, it felt palpably isolated and in decay.

The BNP claimed that the housing problem, the most pressing issue, was caused by "indigenous" families were being driven out of Barking by an "Africans for Essex" scheme implemented by the Labour government. This was, of course, a ludicrous conspiracy theory. But, the problem was that, absent a left-wing policy equal to the scale of the problem -- say, major investment in new council housing -- people were listening to the BNP.

But Hodge played a role in gaining an ear for BNP arguments. Her response, which was typical of an authoritarian-populist strand within New Labour at the time, was to adopt a domesticated version of far right rhetoric.
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Or maybe your talking about someone like disgraced MP John Woodcock

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...eder-guido-fawkes-john-woodcock-a8286856.html

Staunch Corbyn critic John Woodcock MP declared Jewdas “extreme” and their Judaism not “ok” – despite the fact he isn’t Jewish
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Ah the old their not the correct sort of jew argument which of course is deeply anti semitic. And again these ''concerns'' are coming from people on the quite right wing of politics, maybe just maybe there actually no concern of fighting forms of racism from these people.


There should a be no anti semistsm in the party and anyone found out to be a anti semtimte should be kicked out of the party. But this idea the anti semitism has grown since Corbyn and the far left won power in the party is simply untrue.

This is a long but very good article

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/sh...these-disgraceful-slurs-against-jeremy-corbyn
Perhaps above all, I am tired of the historic suffering of my people — including the hideous experiences of my family — being exploited for naked political purposes by people who, when push comes to shove, really couldn’t care less. That is the sort of thing Javid was guilty of in his tweet; and which the right-wing press is continually guilty of when it sensationalises, slurs, and entirely ignores the facts.
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Oscie said:
What consultations with the Jewish community did the Labour party carry out when deciding to redact articles from the IHRA definition of antisemitism?

Is there going to be a another Shami-sham in which she 'independently investigates' the conduct of the party led by a man upon whom she relies on for a job and finds that there's absolutely noting untoward to see here, again?
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So, I had written a response to @2cents but can't ind it now.

Part of it was looking at the major incidents of anti-Semitism in Corbyn's Labour, which turned out to be very connected: Ken -> Charavorty -> definition.
For that specific example, this was the conclusion of her sham inquiry:
The Chakrabarti Inquiry was published in June 2016 and concluded that Labour was "not overrun by anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of racism," despite an "occasionally toxic atmosphere".
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Now, a parliamentary select committee also looked into the same allegations. They slammed Corbyn and her.

This was their conclusion:
The Committee concluded that "...there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party."
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nickm said:
Nobody says Israel cannot be criticised. It’s when people blame Jews in general for what Israel is doing, as if the Jewish community is responsibe for israel’s actions, that’s ‘political antisemitism’.

This conflation of backing the idea of a Jewish homeland, which probably most Jews do, and supporting the actions of the current Jewish political regime, which many Jews do not, is where this racism is getting a foothold to grow in the Labour Party.
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Labours code doesn't allow members to blame all Jews for Israel's crimes
 
If Labour has no more a problem with anti-semitism in the party than other parties, and no more than under previous leadership, it is difficult not to come to the conclusion that this is a deliberate smear campaign aimed at discrediting Corbyn, firstly, to keep him out of power, and failing that, to make it far more difficult for him to stand up for Palestinian rights.

Anti-Semite? This is Jeremy Corbyn for crying out loud.
 
Thought this was a pretty fair thread:



The tl;dr read of it basically being that there's very little difference (if any, in reality) between Labour and the IHRA's definition and that Labour would have been pragmatic to just accept IHRA's definition rather than try and re-define anti-semitism given the issues with it in the party.
 
Sweet Square said:
The reaction from the major jewish paper is laughable ''Corbyn poses 'existential threat'' is up there with Corbyn will turn the country into red flag waving trotskyists






The Jewish Board of deputies for example



Yeah clamming jews who disagree are anti semitic isn't a good look is it. The Board Of deputies also blamed Hamas in regards to the recent event of Israel murdering Palestine protestors. Which caused hundred of jews to sign petition going against the Board Of Deputies, do these not count then ?


http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com...-criticising-board-of-deputies-gaza-response/



I'm not what your point is here. Just because their high profile journos doesn't mean the view is worth more to listen than any other jew.

But even with that said Stephen Pollard editor of the jewish chronicle who very critical of the labour party is also a man who seems to have a bit of a liking for Farge when he's attacking muslims and in fact Pollard and the far right paper the Spectator had to issue a apology and pay damages after referring to a Islam Expo as a racist, fascist and genocidal organisation (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...d-apologise-to-islam-expo-and-pay-damages/)so hardly someone with a calm look on things. This far right nationalist poltics


A MP like Margaret Hodge ? Of course Hodge would know racism where she see it like the time where she called for ''migrant housing rethink''

https://www.patreon.com/posts/20193104


Or maybe your talking about someone like disgraced MP John Woodcock

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...eder-guido-fawkes-john-woodcock-a8286856.html



Ah the old their not the correct sort of jew argument which of course is deeply anti semitic. And again these ''concerns'' are coming from people on the quite right wing of politics, maybe just maybe there actually no concern of fighting forms of racism from these people.


There should a be no anti semistsm in the party and anyone found out to be a anti semtimte should be kicked out of the party. But this idea the anti semitism has grown since Corbyn and the far left won power in the party is simply untrue.

This is a long but very good article

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/sh...these-disgraceful-slurs-against-jeremy-corbyn
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I’ve given you a decent sampling of mainstream Jewish opinion. You’ve given me Billy Bragg, some pro Corbyn cranks and a bit of whataboutery. Powerful stuff.
 
Why are there spoilers being used?

Is it to avoid us knowing the plot?
 
Super Hans said:
If Labour has no more a problem with anti-semitism in the party than other parties, and no more than under previous leadership, it is difficult not to come to the conclusion that this is a deliberate smear campaign aimed at discrediting Corbyn, firstly, to keep him out of power, and failing that, to make it far more difficult for him to stand up for Palestinian rights.

Anti-Semite? This is Jeremy Corbyn for crying out loud.
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Or he’s such a useless leader he’s somehow managed to turn a historic Labour, and alleged personal strength, into a long running source of negative headlines. But you can’t admit that can you, so it has to be a conspiracy.
 
Livvie said:
Why are there spoilers being used?

Is it to avoid us knowing the plot?
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He’s hoping nobody clicks to read his argument
NinjaFletch said:
Thought this was a pretty fair thread:



The tl;dr read of it basically being that there's very little difference (if any, in reality) between Labour and the IHRA's definition and that Labour would have been pragmatic to just accept IHRA's definition rather than try and re-define anti-semitism given the issues with it in the party.
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Indeed. If Labour really valued its links with the Jewish community, you’d think they’d be going about this kind of thing differently.
 
nickm said:
Or he’s such a useless leader he’s somehow managed to turn a historic Labour, and alleged personal strength, into a long running source of negative headlines. But you can’t admit that can you, so it has to be a conspiracy.
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I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy. It’s more like anti-Corbyn, pro-Israel elements have seized the opportunity, which first appeared in the Ken Livingstone incident, to incessantly smear Corbyn and the Labour Party as anti-Semitic. Short of giving in to what are essentially demands for a complete capitulation by Corbyn to ensure his and the party’s future silence on Israel, I’m not sure what else he could do at the moment.

I mean, there is just nothing of substance to support the allegation of anti-semitism.
 
nickm said:
He’s hoping nobody clicks to read his argument


Indeed. If Labour really valued its links with the Jewish community, you’d think they’d be going about this kind of thing differently.
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Why would they? There are about 270,000 Jews in the UK and as a demographic are high earners. I don't think Corbyn is anti semitic, but he's a socialist. The Jewish community has very little value to Labour. Having little or no value doesn't mean the Labour party is anti Jewish people, but let's not pretend the accusations of anti semitism really effect them. If they were seen as anti Islamic or anti black, now that would effectively end the Labour Party, as they are completely reliant on the two largest ethnic minority votes.

Why would a high earning demographic give two craps about the Labour Party and vice versa?
 
redmeister said:
Why would they? There are about 270,000 Jews in the UK and as a demographic are high earners. I don't think Corbyn is anti semitic, but he's a socialist. The Jewish community has very little value to Labour. Having little or no value doesn't mean the Labour party is anti Jewish people, but let's not pretend the accusations of anti semitism really effect them. If they were seen as anti Islamic or anti black, now that would effectively end the Labour Party, as they are completely reliant on the two largest ethnic minority votes.

Why would a high earning demographic give two craps about the Labour Party and vice versa?
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Yikes.
 
Does not approving of Israel's stance make someone anti-semetic? Generic question - I'm not talking about Jeremy Corbyn.
 
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