Is this going to be another 'Corbyn has no real political mileage by alienating Brexit supporting labour demographic' bullshit?
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Is this going to be another 'Corbyn has no real political mileage by alienating Brexit supporting labour demographic' bullshit?
There should be nothing wrong with disapproving with many of Israel's actions in Palestine and Gaza, particularly when they are in violation of UN resolutions and such disapproval or criticism is not an indication of anti-semitism but it's unfortunately become a very easy way to silence people and nullify any other things they say.
And I think this is why Jeremy Corbyn is being vilified.
Why do you say "yikes?" Its just reality. There is only so much funding and time any political party has.
No, it's got absolutely nothing to do with that. Jews are among the highest earners in the UK. They are a tiny part of the population. Hence not exactly a high priority for Labour.
Let's put it another way, do you think Labour put much effort into places like Eastbourne or Winchester? Or the the Conservatives really push hard in Liverpool? Of course not and it's the same with demographics. Why would Labour really be that bothered about a small, majority conservative demographic? As I said in my previous post, I don't think Corbyn is anti semitic, but at the same time, let's not pretend that he or the Labour party are going to really value links with the Jewish community. Not because they are racist or don't like them, but because they don't help them achieve their goals.
Cheers for wasting my time. Also jew who disagrees with you = Corbyn crank, nice one mate really good work you've done there.
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Well I thought yikes too to be honest. Firstly your post came across as saying Labour is only for the poor, thus dooming it to electoral failure, and secondly it's ok to be antisemitic because jews are rich. Now I'm sure you didn't mean either of those things, but as written that's the way it comes across.
Ah, your subsequent post cleared it up a bit.
The current debate concerns the IHRA definition of antisemitism. The definition makes it clear that criticism of Israel is not necessarily antisemitic - it states explicitly that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." However, it proposes that in certain circumstances/contexts, criticism of Israel might be antisemitic.
Here's the video of Corbyn on Press TV in 2012 which is doing the rounds on Twitter today. It is a good example of how 'criticism of Israel' may in a particular context veer into antisemitism:
On the face of it, all Corbyn has done is said he suspects Israeli involvement in the jihadi attack on Egyptian forces. No mention of Jews, just criticism of Israel. And yet he has said it with zero proof, just based on his idea of "who benefits?" So he posits an Israeli false-flag attack aimed at driving a wedge between "Palestine" and the new Morsi government in Cairo. It's a conspiracy theory which anyone who understands basic antisemitic tropes will immediately recognize - the idea that Jews work undercover to undermine legitimate governments and sew chaos around the world is a classic. That doesn't necessarily mean Corbyn's actual statement is antisemitic in intent (although since when did intent matter when it comes to racism?), but it's the kind of thing that would immediately have some alarm bells ringing, as it is unlikely to be a coincidence that the world's only Jewish state is the number one recipient (by quite a margin I'd guess) of these types of conspiratorial, false-flag accusations. Corbyn's anti-Zionism is conspiratorial and in this case seems to utilize an accusation classically thrown by antisemites at Jews in order to smear the only Jewish state. It's something a man in his position really should have known to avoid...
However, he gave the statement on Press TV (an old haunt of his), which brings us to the part of the IHRA definition which talks about "taking into account the overall context..." Press TV is an antisemitic channel which has hosted Holocaust deniers and various crack-pot conspiracy theorists with an Israel obsession. It is the English-language propaganda arm of an antisemitic regime. So Corbyn is here proposing an Israel conspiracy which looks a lot like an antisemitic conspiracy on the antisemitic news channel of the antisemitic Iranian regime.
And this is exactly the reason why, whatever the statistics may show about the prevalence of antisemitism in Labour before and after Corbyn, and whatever Corbyn actually believes in his heart, he will not get the benefit of the doubt from most Jews on this issue, and neither will the Labour Party while he is in charge. He is someone who at the very least is comfortable in an environment where the line between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is often/frequently blurred - indeed it seems to me like much of his activism on behalf of the Palestinians has been conducted in such an environment.
Even foreign policy mag was publishing articles about Israel's interests in Egypt around the time of the Arab Spring, the rise of the brotherhood was seen as a risk to the 1979 peace treaty. It's hardly confined to David Icke and 4chan that Israel took an active interest in what was going on there.
Yeah that's not at all what Corbyn is saying in that interview though.
In other words, nothing but the ouster of Corbyn, or a 180 on his foreign policy, would be enough to prove that he isn't anti-Semitic.
Which is a problem, because I don't see John McDonnell or Diane Abbott being acceptable either (and they'd both be even more unelectable), and I don't know anybody else with actual Left-wing commitments in that party.
I'm quite sure there is a means by which Corbyn could manage this problem without doing a 180 on his Israel stance. However at this moment it doesn't appear as if he's capable of it, hence the continuing problems he's facing.
By the way this is the attack Corbyn seems to be referring to in the video:
"The August 2012 Sinai attack occurred on 5 August 2012, when armed men ambushed an Egyptian military base in the Sinai Peninsula, killing 16 soldiers and stealing two armored cars, which they used to infiltrate into Israel. The attackers broke through the Kerem Shalom border crossing to Israel, where one of the vehicles exploded. They then engaged in a firefight with soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, during which six of the attackers were killed. No Israelis were injured."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2012_Sinai_attack#Attack
"The August 2012 Sinai attack occurred on 5 August 2012, when armed men ambushed an Egyptian military base in the Sinai Peninsula, killing 16 soldiers and stealing two armored cars, which they used to infiltrate into Israel. The attackers broke through the Kerem Shalom border crossing to Israel, where one of the vehicles exploded. They then engaged in a firefight with soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, during which six of the attackers were killed. No Israelis were injured."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2012_Sinai_attack#Attack
Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Arab agenda
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/vi...5/10/04/Jeremy-Corbyn-s-anti-Arab-agenda.html
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/vi...5/10/04/Jeremy-Corbyn-s-anti-Arab-agenda.html
This was my favourite bit from that CAA article:
it also links to a "you hired the wrong Jew" article
it also links to a "you hired the wrong Jew" article
It's just a complete mindfeck to me that the Tories are fecking this country up the arse and we're months away from having to use stockpiles of food, medicine and blood as a result - and you look at Labour and everyone's talking about Israel, Palestine and antisemitism.
Whether your view is that Corbyn can't be an effective opposition leader or he hasn't been allowed to be an effective opposition leader - the fact is Labour under him have been the least effective opposition any of us can remember. That's pretty much an observable fact at this stage now not even an opinion.
Whether your view is that Corbyn can't be an effective opposition leader or he hasn't been allowed to be an effective opposition leader - the fact is Labour under him have been the least effective opposition any of us can remember. That's pretty much an observable fact at this stage now not even an opinion.
You and this person with the username 'Oscie' should have a chat.
Yes because what matters isn't the fact the govt is being allowed to get away with stuff because Labour can't seem to fart without shitting down its own legs - the problem is a guy on an internet forum points that out.
I don't know where British politics would be without you having next to nothing to say about the Tories and lots to say about how nobody is talking about the Tories, Oscie.
I think we're losing sight of the real issue and that's what LucyLux88 on Reddit has been saying. if it wasn't for her Corbyn would definitely be PM already. Things like poll performance, winning elections or stopping a dangerous hard Brexit aren't that important - LucyLux88 needs to have a word with herself.
I don't get how people are incapable of actually discussing these things without centring everything on the views of a virtual stranger on the internet. Every single time anyone points out the flaws of the Labour party there's this bizarre desire to centre some irrelevant online disagreement. As if that's the only thing people are capable of understanding. LucyLux88 on Reddit, Oscie on Redcafe, @HotMamaJunetits4 on Twitter - at some point can we acknowledge what matters is the subjects not what people on the internet have said about them before? Such a narrow, spectrum-like outlook on absolutely everything is both infuriating and limiting.
I've criticised Corbyn in the past therefore I can't acknowledge the reality that Labour are as effective as King Cnute when it comes to stopping the tidal wave of Tory mess? Or maybe Cnute would have been more successful if not for the doubting words of @NordicBabe44.
Genuinely as if the first reaction people have when there's a political news story is "Hmm...well, Oscie said..." It's utterly bizarre and not really terribly flattering that you seem to think I'm the single most important person in British politics right now, or at least as your constant, unrelenting mentioning of me seems to suggest.
I don't get how people are incapable of actually discussing these things without centring everything on the views of a virtual stranger on the internet. Every single time anyone points out the flaws of the Labour party there's this bizarre desire to centre some irrelevant online disagreement. As if that's the only thing people are capable of understanding. LucyLux88 on Reddit, Oscie on Redcafe, @HotMamaJunetits4 on Twitter - at some point can we acknowledge what matters is the subjects not what people on the internet have said about them before? Such a narrow, spectrum-like outlook on absolutely everything is both infuriating and limiting.
I've criticised Corbyn in the past therefore I can't acknowledge the reality that Labour are as effective as King Cnute when it comes to stopping the tidal wave of Tory mess? Or maybe Cnute would have been more successful if not for the doubting words of @NordicBabe44.
Genuinely as if the first reaction people have when there's a political news story is "Hmm...well, Oscie said..." It's utterly bizarre and not really terribly flattering that you seem to think I'm the single most important person in British politics right now, or at least as your constant, unrelenting mentioning of me seems to suggest.
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Totally agree. I blame 3rd party voters to be honest, first they help Trump into the White House and then they help a far right tory party that is committed to a hard Brexit into government . For what ? A protest vote. This is the problem with these radicals, they have cult obsession with having their own way.
Oh out of interest what party did you vote for in the last election ?
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Polls? Are they those things you suddenly had less interest in when Labour were moving up in them, which whittled away to absolutely zero when they show Labour leading? Nice to know they're important again.
If it does, then i am anti Semitic
FFS get a grip, do you lap up this tabloid bullshit or get it intravenously?
You're aware that the stockpiles of food and blood is something the government is actually doing, aren't you?
The absolute fecking irony of someone citing what is the government is doing being accused of lapping up 'tabloid bullshit', by someone who is verbatim quoting the line of every tabloid in the country that everything is "project fear"
The head of the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has warned that Brexit threatens the supply of medicines to the country. Yet anyone who thinks the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency knows more about the regulation of medicines and healthcare than Michael Gove or Julia Hartley-Brewer is just spreading 'tabloid bullshit' and we know this to be true because hacks from the Daily Mail, Express and The Sun tell us so.
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No, unless it’s used as a vehicle for anti-semitism
He does, whatever the outcome he'll say 'i told you so'.
I agree. As much as I like the guy, he and the people around him need to be much more ruthless. If they don't they'll never take office again. As much as I hate Blair for being a mass murderer of Muslims, as a British citizen and a supporter of Labour, i'd much rather have the likes of him, Allaister Campbell and Peter Mandelson dismantling the Tories and Brexit. Corbyn just seems to apologise for not sucking Israel's balls and talk about pie in the sky ideas like universal income.
Blair, Campbell and Mandelson 'dismantling the Tories'
Corbyn shouldn't have apologised.
Labour and Corbyn have to deal with this shite. Personally I'm holding the NEC responsible for this clusterfeck. That said, it's been blown out of proportion.
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It gets better. Apparently, the Newsnight approved Labour MP who appeared on last night's show to express her outrage at Corbyn being at such an event...
Corbyn shouldn't have apologised.
Went herself.
She didn't introduce any holocaust survivors so she can't be antisemitic.
Blair, Campbell and Mandelson 'dismantling the Tories'
I think he means the old definition by 'dismantling' a political party which meant you comprehensively defeat them at successful general elections. Under the new definition where you 'dismantle' a party by ensuring you provide the least effective opposition to their agenda for government that we've ever seen from an opposition party in living memory - everyone mentioned was terrible at that.
In footballing terms Labour have gone from a side that would thrash the opposition 4-0 to a team that struggles to score a goal despite the fact the other team's goalkeeper has nipped out for a shit. Yet anyone who mentions this gets
"
at the idea that anyone thought winning 4-0 was better than the reality where we struggle to score a goal even though the opposition keeper has nipped out for a shit"There's a resistance to even reality.
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For me it's as if the National Union of Students have taken over the Labour party. Happy to let Brexit take its course with little to no opposition to anything that's going on, but passionately believes in the plight of the endangered Hungarian alpine shrew, returning the Elgin marbles and passing motions to ensure a safe space for disabled BME students in the main hall between the hours of 11:15am - 13:00pm every second Tuesday during term time.
It's not that you can disagree with any of it but that's not really what the point of opposition is and not really the kind of opposition we need at the moment.