I wish Corbyn would miss some Brexit votes to talk about the perils of homosexuals. Then he could win Oscie over.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
If we weren't talking about the antisemitism row, what else would we be talking about?
The fact Labour has an identical policy to the Tories on Brexit?
Elgin marbles?
"I draw the biggest crowds anyone has ever seen"
Increasingly it seems as if people don't really care how Labour performs or if the Tories are in govt or what they do. All they care about is trolling people who actually do care how Labour performs, don't want the Tories in govt and give a toss about the real long term impact of what they're doing. Like politics is about pretending to passionately support someone just to wind up the people pointing out that person's shortcomings. "For the lolz" ideology.
The thing is not all Corbyn supporters are like that, there are many who are engaging and intelligent who you can reason with. Then there's the sector that things politics is all about Aaron Bastini quotes, green smiley faces and 'correcting' anyone that points out the Labour party used to win elections.
The fact Labour has an identical policy to the Tories on Brexit?
Elgin marbles?
"I draw the biggest crowds anyone has ever seen"
Increasingly it seems as if people don't really care how Labour performs or if the Tories are in govt or what they do. All they care about is trolling people who actually do care how Labour performs, don't want the Tories in govt and give a toss about the real long term impact of what they're doing. Like politics is about pretending to passionately support someone just to wind up the people pointing out that person's shortcomings. "For the lolz" ideology.
The thing is not all Corbyn supporters are like that, there are many who are engaging and intelligent who you can reason with. Then there's the sector that things politics is all about Aaron Bastini quotes, green smiley faces and 'correcting' anyone that points out the Labour party used to win elections.
Labour have (generally speaking) been edging ahead in some polls again to the point where they'd have a reasonable chance of getting into government if an election was held now. There's plenty of criticism to be had of Corbyn and his handling of Brexit, but the 'student protest' nonsense and ideas that the party aren't trying to get into government should be put to bed. And while last year's result shouldn't be lauded too much because they ultimately still didn't win, it was the party's best result since 2005. Which is respectable for a party who many thought would get demolished.
Both right and left hard-liners see the moderates as the common enemy and expend more energy attacking them than they do each other.
Not so long ago politics used to be about how to spend record investment in the NHS, what more could be done to better the lot of young mum's, improve housing conditions for the less well off, LGBT equality, throwing-shitloads of money at education.
Then things "improved" the hardliners took over the controls of both parties and now it's blue passports, antisemitism, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Owen Jones.
I reserve the right to think that's shit. I don't think that's nostalgia either. Politics/political discourse and Britain itself was in a much better place when the grown-ups were in charge.
Not so long ago politics used to be about how to spend record investment in the NHS, what more could be done to better the lot of young mum's, improve housing conditions for the less well off, LGBT equality, throwing-shitloads of money at education.
Then things "improved" the hardliners took over the controls of both parties and now it's blue passports, antisemitism, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Owen Jones.
I reserve the right to think that's shit. I don't think that's nostalgia either. Politics/political discourse and Britain itself was in a much better place when the grown-ups were in charge.
it's literally nostalgia, things were good when i got what i wanted and bad now it's different. the grown ups were full of shit too
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The hard-left Corbyn cheerleaders have to denigrate the achievements of the last Labour govt because they know the second people make the comparison to Labour then and Labour now is the moment the scales fall from their eyes. It's often why it's an observable reality that they care more about tarnishing the domestic achievements during the Blair/Brown years then they do about anything that's happened since 2010.
If you're including yourself in that, this is your most laughable post yet.
what the feck are you talking about
By this time in his leadership Blair had won a 179 seat majority in the Commons and ensured independence of the BoE, and started an era of record investment in public services on a scale which we are probably unlikely to see again for at least the next 20 years.
It's no 'struggle in the polls, lose an election and get bogged down in a row as to whether or not you hate Jews', but not everyone's perfect.
It's no 'struggle in the polls, lose an election and get bogged down in a row as to whether or not you hate Jews', but not everyone's perfect.
He'd also inherited a 20 point lead on the Tories, which he'd managed to turn into a 12 point lead at the actual election.
By the way are we allowed to criticise Private Finance Initiatives and Blair's gargling of Murdoch's shrivelled up balls to ensure he'd pretty much decide every election and a great deal of political policy for 20+ years? A friendship so strong Andy Burnham (who I have very little time for) was told not to pursue an official investigation into Hillsborough? What about the 'moderates' favourite Yvette Cooper's keen work on ensuring work capability assessments were tougher? What about Blair making a speech at the white cliffs of Dover, in front of a handpicked, all white audience, about the perils of immigration?
But as you imply Oscie, it's only foreign policy where people can pick fault with 'New' Labour.
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The government is taking this country into the gutter but Corbyn is the number one topic. Just feck off!. The NEC members deserve the sack.
Sure, yet even if we ignore how utterly incredible it is to have a leader of the party having to insist he doesn't hate Jews, and look at the gutter this country is being driven to then there isn't really much there from Labour to get excited about anyway.
If it's not "I'm not antisemitic but.." it's the same "will of the people" shite we get from the Tories.
We'd have a Tory leader having to insist her party doesn't hate Muslims/adore Steve Bannon, but (like the media) Oscie isn't too interested in that weirdly.
This is a shocking distortion of the past. Blair's government achieved plenty but also failed to introduce any lasting, meaningful left-wing policy and basically gave in to the Thatcherite economic agenda while admittedly doing better on public investment. That same government also invaded Iraq and helped cause chaos in the Middle East after misleading the nation.
Cameron's government was classed as moderate for the Tory party but again implemented hardline austerity policy which has again caused chaos in Britain.
The reason political discourse has gotten worse is because there was a financial crisis and people haven't really benefited from the recovery. Inequality continues to persist and the shift on blame towards immigrants etc has resulted in Brexit, the right-wing media Blair spent years courting helping it along the way.
Politics isn't more polarising because people feel like just annoying each other. Specific social conditions and problems have led to the way things are at the moment.
Corbyn shouldn't have apologised.
Okay, so I get you say criticism of Corbyn hosting that event on Holocaust Memorial Day is disproved because a Jew - Holocaust survivor - has apparently said things that would likely be deemed antisemitic by the vast majority of other Jews. It's so obvious and straight-forward to you that you think green smilies are all that's needed.
What's the difference between this stance and, say, that of a US right winger, who says racism charges against Trump followers are disproved because of what David Clarke says about Black Lives Matter, Charlottesville, etc.?
I'm glad we're now at the stage where we are comparing a holocaust survivor who foughr against oppression to a US sheriff who fights for oppression with a straight face.
Corbyn is a disaster and has utterly failed to be an effective opposition leader at a time when a robust opposition is most required to give some checks and balances during the brexit debacle. He is as guilty as May in the utter shit show that is about to be inflicted on the country. That's aside from the dubious links he has had to IRA, Hamas and anti-semitism. It's a shame because I am a left-leaning person in general and I like the sound of some of his policies but he is so utterly inept that there is no chance of any of them being implemented, quite the opposite.
You really don't realise how one-eyed you come across on here when it comes to Israel topics.
Whatever about that group, since when can't Jews be antisemitic? @berbatrick has shown in this thread that Netanyahu and his son have spread antisemitic tropes. I've mentioned the case of Gilad Atzmon a couple of times, he's an Israeli Jew who now claims that he despises "the Jew" in him and engages in the most vulgar forms of antisemitism.
My father-in-law is an Arab and I've never encountered anyone, in real life or online, who hates Arabs more. No serious analysis of racism suggests that its targets are somehow uniquely free from its grasp. That group and the Holocaust survivor mentioned above may or may not be antisemites, or have spread antisemitic tropes, but their Jewish identity should not be the primary consideration when making that judgement.
I agree that's why I did the
I agree that's why I did the
Ah, my apologies then.
Jews won't be happy until Corbyn as gone. Must be pro Israel and anti Palestine or you are anti-semitic . In that case then so am i.
It's mostly my fault(Sorry you had it write all that out) as looking at it now I can see why it looks like I posted it because I agree with it even if that wasn't the case(I've been up all night so I'm all over the place).
From the article
I mean does McDonnell read the stuff he signs
Oh I dunno. Gay people got civil rights. Education and NHS all got massive spending increases. 3rd world debt was wiped off. Bank of England was made independent. Scotland got its own parliament. Hereditary peers were slashed. Minimum wage was introduced. Good Friday agreement. Banned fox hunting.
Plenty there the Tories would never have done.
That's a lovely straw man you are hiding behind there.
I said in my post Labour's governments under Blair achieved plenty, especially socially, and that's something to be lauded.
On economic policy though they mostly ceded to the Thatcherite agenda though, something Blair himself acknowledged. Taxes remained mostly quite low. Spending increases were useful but didn't necessarily rectify social inequality or reduce it in the long-term.
For Israel, Corbyn is the gift that keeps on giving. Never in the history of the conflict has one man helped conflate anti-zionism with anti-semitism by trying so hard to separate them.
I have no problem with that perception when it comes to that type of anti-Zionism.
I'm well aware Clarke and Meyer have very different backgrounds. I was comparing the strategy of saying "It can't be antisemitic because a Jew said it too" to the strategy of "It can't be racist because black people are saying it too." That claim was the gist of the posts I quoted.
I also can't see that holding what's essentially a counter-protest to Holocaust Memorial Day, including comparisons of Zionist Jews to Nazis*, is "fighting against oppression". We're at a point where even the admission something like this is at least problematic - basically what Corbyn has done in his apology, regardless if honest or just PR - seems too much to ask from some.
*assuming Meyer has done this there, as it has been one of his main points for years
Starting a sentence with "Jews won't be happy until" is often a good way of communicating just that.
If you think Labour's diabolical situation is because of Jeremy Corbyn you're a "traitor".
If you think Labour's diabolical situation has nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn you have to answer the question: what's the point of him then?
If you don't think Labour is in a diabolical situation at all then you're mad.
I don't quite see how anyone doesn't fit into one of those three categories.
If you think Labour's diabolical situation has nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn you have to answer the question: what's the point of him then?
If you don't think Labour is in a diabolical situation at all then you're mad.
I don't quite see how anyone doesn't fit into one of those three categories.
But they aren't? I disagree with their stance on Brexit currently and don't think they're doing enough, but they're objectively doing alright in the polls at the moment and have edged ahead in some. We're hardly in a late-2016/early-2017 situation currently where the party is lagging behind the government substantially.
Ok maybe i should have said Jewish Leadership Council and the Board of Deputies of British Jews plus right wing media won't be happy until Corbyn as gone.
They're against the worst government we've ever seen, who are quite literally tearing themselves apart in the mid-term of a Parliament that they've been the party who has provided the occupant of number 10 for the past 8 years.
With that backdrop, on what planet is the opposition being (according to the 18/07 polling average) 0.9 percentage points ahead "objectively doing alright in the polls"?
There is absolutely everything there for any opposition to be absolutely rampant, to send the govt reeling every day, to set and lead the political agenda. Yet we start from a point where being pretty much tied with one of the most unpopular govts in probably more than 50 years is somehow "doing alright in the polls". It isn't even really principles and policies that get debated any more, it's people denying reality.
There isn't even an acknowledge of what's real. Worst government in 50 years, country on its knees, majority party tearing itself apart. How easier do circumstance need to be for an opposition to make headway? They're not and yet the new 'reality' is that this represents them "doing alright in the polls". It's an alternative fact if ever there was one.
I didn't say they're doing brilliantly - just that they aren't in a 'diabolical' situation. Which is objective fact. Certainly they've been in much worse situations under Corbyn early on in his tenure.
Ideally they'd be ahead of the Tories but part of the problem with the current political climate of the country is that with anti-immigration and pro-Brexit sentiment being overtly against Brexit and for immigration isn't going to lead to a massive boost in the polls. Of course, ideally Labour would be helping to go against the tide of Brexit with the aim of swaying those sentiments, but it's not a particularly easy task and even with the unpopularity of this government, winning against them isn't necessarily easy while they placate the hard-right.
It's a fundamental disagreement on reality.
You consider being on par in the polls with this government as "doing objectively alright". I don't. Presumably you think the government are doing absolutely fecking amazing then, going through what they have and being neck and neck with an opposition you think are doing quite well.
Isn't a single govt who've had a record close to this ones who wouldn't take being level in polls with the opposition. Isn't a single opposition vs a govt with a record close to the one this one has and take being level with govt in the polls.
To refute that is to be either disingenuous, an idiot or a liar. But it's the only way Corbyn's leadership can be defended. Not only ignore reality, invent a new one.
You consider being on par in the polls with this government as "doing objectively alright". I don't. Presumably you think the government are doing absolutely fecking amazing then, going through what they have and being neck and neck with an opposition you think are doing quite well.
Isn't a single govt who've had a record close to this ones who wouldn't take being level in polls with the opposition. Isn't a single opposition vs a govt with a record close to the one this one has and take being level with govt in the polls.
To refute that is to be either disingenuous, an idiot or a liar. But it's the only way Corbyn's leadership can be defended. Not only ignore reality, invent a new one.
If you actually read my post, you'd see I stated that this government are a shambles, and I think Labour can do better. But I've also outlined why that isn't particularly easy, and that there are certain reasons that the popularity of this government persists in spite of how shambolic it is.
There's also a certain fondness for nostalgia going on here though where you're ignoring how poor governments of the past were. Major and co are seen respectably now, but were mired by scandal and infighting back in the 90s. Blair had Iraq. Brown - while I think he dealt respectably with the financial crisis to a point - was often lambasted and seen as a poor premier. Thatcher was unpopular at points during her first term and was probably saved to an extent by the Falklands.
I don't see this government receiving a revival in times to come because it quite obviously is crap, but it's always easier to dismiss political opponents of the now as rubbish compared to ones of the past, because we're looking at past politicians in a more objective light with a fuller knowledge of what they did, why they did it, and what the lasting outcome of their actions were.