Of course I care about Pogbas form with other clubs.
I don't care about national squads though. If we go by World Cup form let's buy Mina right now.
Mourinho or Pogba?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Of course I care about Pogbas form with other clubs.
I don't care about national squads though. If we go by World Cup form let's buy Mina right now.
Not only that, he’ll have Martial backing him up (among others maybe).
Both are mostly about their own agenda. I don't think either cares for the current United team or it's fans. I chose Mou because I think he at least seems to respect the history of the team but I can't imagine either will be here past next year if they stay or survive that long.
I'm saying Pogba struggles to show an affinity to his club and give 100% consistently on the pitch whereas my named examples do give it their all.
Sanchez threw strops but he was always getting in and about and giving 100% every time he played for Arsenal even towards the end. Remember some AFTV people saying he might as well go because they get where he was coming from, being the only one trying to win games.
If you not getting on with your manager at work caused you to only give 50% one week......and then 100%...and back to 50% and back up to 100% people would think your performance fluctuations are not caused by your manager.........even if you don't get on!
He can't even consistently play poorly if his poor performances are down to Jose!
They kept Rooney for far too long and allowed the older players to have too much say in club matters that every damn decision made by the manager was scrutinised by the media and players. The manager job is tough enough that having the players second guessing your every decision just makes it worse.
You realise the players that are supposedly on bad terms with Jose all have been questioned over their dedication to their game? Sure, fault Jose though. How can he expect players to give 100% to their job. Players need to be pampered and having them play well once in a well is good as long as they're happy, that's all that supposedly matters anyway.
We've only had about 5½ managers though, chief.
So if Pogba dont like the next manager , what do we do?
This!!!
I guess that's where we differ because I don't think it's a case where he "gave more" in some matches, I just think he's still a bit inconsistent and naive and as such his performances can vary wildly, like you'd expect from 24 year old midfielder.
People are getting excited by his performances for France because he showed a consistency and maturity we haven't seen from him here before. it's a shame other posters are instead using such a positive thing as a reason to beat him with a stick instead.
If you think Pogba is the sort of player who will elevate any team, regardless of circumstances, you're...naive. *
If you think he'll emerge - once José is gone - as our captain, a Robbo/Keano hybrid with some Scholesy thrown in...you're drunk. Or you're better off getting drunk. If you're old enough.
* You're actually an idiot, because the evidence is right there in front of you that he clearly isn't.
If you think he'll emerge - once José is gone - as our captain, a Robbo/Keano hybrid with some Scholesy thrown in...you're drunk. Or you're better off getting drunk. If you're old enough.
* You're actually an idiot, because the evidence is right there in front of you that he clearly isn't.
Clearly the answer is to hire Riaola as our manager, that'll keep Pogba happy.
I wouldn't expect wildly inconsistent performances from a 24 year old "world class talent".
I also don't regard world Cup as showing consistency because its a few weeks long (he was bog standard in group stages FWIW). He showed great form for the last few games, which he's done before for us. Sandwiched between average ones of course.
I don't agree with the first part and I think there's no point continuing this further. Ultimately we don't know with Pogba because we have no insight on any of this beyond what we hear from the press. It's possible he does have attitude issues like you say, but I like to believe that he doesn't and that if we do hold on to him (which I think we will) then we'll see a genuinely great midfielder over the next few seasons.
is there a neither option? Mourinho's whining is getting increasingly harder to defend (and i have been pretty much pro-Mourinho up to this point) and as for Pogba, United have shown a lot of faith in bringing him back so he should just get on with his game instead of complaining to the media via Raiola.
Fair enough. We can both agree to hope for the last bit at least.
No but he is the manager of the club. A manager should ALWAYS have priority over one player.
That’s the whole point of it. We’ve had player payer get rid of the previous two managers and only shown progress under Jose.
Why not?
How old were the likes of Xavi, Modric, Pirlo before people were discussing them among the best midfielders in the world? We hadn't even signed Michael Carrick yet, our best midfielder of the last decade, when he was 24.
It's a well known fact that midfielders are among the last to realize their full potential due to the discipline and maturity it requires to play there. There are only a handful of examples out there of top, top midfielders who were already brilliant aged 24.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying Pogba will become anywhere as good as those three, just using them as examples
Keeping Rooney was solely on Moyes head. SAF cleared the way for Rooney to be tossed out, and instead Moyes gave him a 5 year contract. Then came Vangle who seemed to love Rooney just as much. As for the older players questioning decisions, again I presume you’re talking about with Moyes? Players like Rio, Vidic etc who were serial winners and had achieved everything in the game were not misplaced to question certain decisions by Moyes. Again he was a disastrous appointment, and had he been left alone, there’s no doubt we would be much worse now. We can debate until the end of the year about Mourinho, but I fail to see how you can act like we’ve become some kind of lions den for managers. We made two poor managerial appointments, that’s not on the players.
You are joking? In the Sevilla second leg second half thats Pogba giving his level? If that is indeed remotely true his level is not even PL quality. he kicked a ball out of play from 8 yards with no players with 10 yards! He was abysmal. I've seen at least 10 games last season pass him completely by. Again solely because he wasn't giving anything near his best....because if he was.....the type of players in the PL bottom 6....wouldn't be able to pass him by for 90 mins...but thats what happened. You'd defend him until the next manager had similar issues.....
He was awful, it was one game, big deal. I don't see people questioning the rest of our team's attitudes despite them all also being fecking useless in both legs vs. Sevilla.
With or without Mourinho do you see Pogba staying at this club till end of his contract? I certainly don't see it happening. Neither option needs to be added to the poll to give it a unbiased view.
I prefer Pogba but he's not the final solution. When he's on form, he can execute his tasks well and has a good eye for bombing it down the field to a teammate, especially on the far right. He can handle himself well in tight and crowded spaces and has no qualms contributing to the attack. We'll just need to find a good method of rotation so he's not too gassed by the end of the season. I also don't appreciate how the media portrays his relationship with Mourinho as some sort of war. I'm certain that behind the scenes, they are allies.
So until that point Jose should accept his a squad player......and not push him
One game he didnt start either leg? Because his form in that period was exactly the same as in that game...hence he was rightly on the bench!!
If it was Mourinho or Fellaini it still wouldn't even be close.
Moyes was doomed to fail because the players doubted him from the very moment he was signed.
And our players are a bunch of spoilt brats ever since Sir Alex left, only Jose started out in clearing all the deadwood when Moyes and Van Gaal should have done it from the start. There's a reason why the team has been underperforming for years and it ain't just on the manager. The players deserve more flack than they're getting from the media and fans for it.
I would like just to add something, just a small example that can mean anything or nothing. Have anyone seen the Deschamps talk after the France - Australia game?
Did you saw who was the player responding to the manager with excuses like " we didnt know what to do"
Did you saw who was the player responding to the manager with excuses like " we didnt know what to do"
He should nurture and improve him and show patience like a manager should with any talented player.
.. do you have a point or .. ?
If our board appointed someone who led, inspired, motivated and had a vision for the team that lifted and engaged our players, they’d respect him soon enough.
I don’t blame them, as since SAF they’ve had Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. Meanwhile, their rivals at other clubs are playing attacking football under inspiring coaches like Klopp and Guardiola.
The responsibility for this has to come down to the board, who’ve not got the succession to Ferguson right.
As for the OP, one is a midfielder with his best years ahead of him, the other is a manager who historically does well in the second of a three year reign. For me it’s a no brainier - Pogba, as Mourinho’s reign will naturally end well before Pogba even peaks.
Busby had officially gone by the 70s, other than a brief caretaker role.
The circumstances were quite different. Busby had won us loads, including the European Cup. By the time this question would have been asked, Best was completely unreliable. The general consensus among both fans and (as it later transpired) players was that Busby was far too soft on him. Pogba occasionally displays unwarranted arrogance and petulance, but he's never been unprofessional or disrespectful. Though you could argue that his agent has!
Firstly Pogba is a completely different mould of a midfielder to who you've named. But to entertain it:
Modric was 24 in 2010, 2 seasons before he went to Real Madrid. He was well established with Spurs and attracting a lot of interest from top clubs and far more consistent to what Pogba has shown for us in England so far.
Pirlo at 24 (2003) just came off the back of leading the entire league in 4 categories: successful balls, successful passes, passes played and most passes per game. He was widely regarded as one of the best midfielders in the world and firmly Ancelottis pet favourite. He also registered 9 goals from a deep lying playmaker position (career best, not bad for a guy playing so deep).
Xavi was 24 in 2004/2005 season where he was named vice captain and played a pivotal role in helping Barcelona win La Liga and the Supercup before being named the leagues player of the season the following year.
So yeah, all of your examples were pretty phenomenal by 24, let alone have buffers for wildly inconsistent performances. Pogba is a long way off that.
Infact from a consistency angle and comparing to present day players who aren't even legends, he's not as good as Thiago when he was 24, or Vidal when he was 24, or Kevin De Bruyne and so on and so on.
quite happily see them both go, Jose was never the right man for the job, and pogba well was never going to be here long term with his current agent and has had a spell of about 2 months that he was actually any good.
He's also a moaner who wants to leave the moment he doesn't have his way and his agent is the most infamous for pushing his players out for a big move. But yeah, stick with Pogba instead of one of the best manager in the world.
If you're so insistent on using history, how about the fact that Riaolo's players always makes multiple transfers in their career and Pogba's history of wanting out of clubs to get whatever he wants.
Fair on Pirlo and Xavi, I do recall a lot of Barca and Spain fans at the time being quite frustrated with him though and he did only really peak at 27/28 under Pep, but you are right that both were streets ahead of Pogba at the same age.
Modric though? Come on, he was hardly rated as being top class at all, he was considered all potential and a lot of people weren't even sure if he had that much potential iirc. I remember plenty of Utd fans were totally against us signing. He was also voted the worst La Liga signing of the season in his first season at Real! He really only developed into a great player at 28/29.
He may be one of the best manager's in the world (or may no longer be, he hasn't done much in the last few years after all) but what he also is is a manager who has NEVER stayed at a club for longer than three years, either through moving on himself or being sacked.
And... what season number is this he's in now?
I'm not Pogba's biggest fan but if I had to back money on who will most likely be with us next season it would probably be him over Mourinho.
Yeah he had a tough year at Real. Immediately bounced back and was phenomenal the next season though.
I remember modric being massively rated in the Premier league for a couple of seasons before he went to Real. Would refresh the caf as a stalker to see if it was us or Chelsea who had higher chances of nabbing him. What a pipe dream
.Anyway my point is just that Pogba doesn't have the time anymore to allow for large buffers for inconsistency. 24 ain't young enough for that sadly.