Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Bevan's vision for the NHS was far more extensive than that conceived of by the Liberals, Tories or even other Labour MPs.
Yeah, that's the point, and why he's held up as a prominent example of what those on the far left need to do. The NHS would look very different if not for his vision while in office.

Adjusted for inflation, we spend 10 times the amount on the NHS that we did 60 years ago. Going into debt is simply not a valid response. Why? Because (just like in 2010), what is to stop the next Government from reversing spending in health? The Labour Party needs a serious conversation about how it will fund health services, beyond the simple tax-and-spend approach of the past (and yes, even from 1997-2010).
It is a valid response. The death rate has increased since 2010 as a direct consequence of conservative policy, hitting the poor and disabled hardest. People who disagree with NHS spending through debt and taxation aren't worth spending political capital on. There are enough progressive people in the UK that the labour party doesn't need to appeal to people who want lower taxes. Labour should spend more time on emotional pleas for healthcare than economic ones.
 
I didn't say that. I said that in 1945 all the main parties accepted the Beveridge Report and committed themselves to creating an NHS. The political centre was therefore much further to the left than it is today, which made it much easier for Labour to pass reforms which would hold, as all the other parties accepted the Welfare State in principle.

Now look at today. In order for Labour to A) win power and B) more importantly, pass lasting reforms, we will need to start to move the political centre away from where it was under Cameron and austerity and towards the left. That has happened to an extent since Brexit but we are not there yet. If we try to pass reforms and structural change from further left of the centre than we (and the other parties) were in 1945, then those changes will likely not last long at all.
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That's good for reason for mandatory re-selection of MP's right ? It going to be very hard to pass changes/reforms when parts of the british state and British Capitalism is trying it's best to stop these reforms(As Tony Benn time in office shows). It's would make it a hell of lot easier if all MPs in Labour Party could agree that these reforms are a good thing, which clearly isn't the case at the moment.

Just because he voted LibDem doesn't mean he isn't a Labour supporter at heart.
Well yes. Being a ''labour supporter'' doesn't actually mean, Osice is a liberal and the labour party isn't really a liberal party anymore so he's not going to vote for it(And I image the same can be said of your boss).
 
Yeah, that's the point, and why he's held up as a prominent example of what those on the far left need to do. The NHS would look very different if not for his vision while in office.

I don't think you will find any Labour member who doesn't like the NHS. My point here is that it is important to give Bevan's actions context. He compromised a lot to get the NHS Act passed. He also designed a system that needed reform 3 years after creation, and which has sadly always struggled around issues of funding. He was given backing in Cabinet by Attlee and could not have got the Bill through without the 146 seat majority Labour had. Of course we can hold up the NHS as a shining achievement of Labour in Government. It just took a lot more than Nye Bevan's will.

It is a valid response. The death rate has increased since 2010 as a direct consequence of conservative policy, hitting the poor and disabled hardest. People who disagree with NHS spending through debt and taxation aren't worth spending political capital on. There are enough progressive people in the UK that the labour party doesn't need to appeal to people who want lower taxes. Labour should spend more time on emotional pleas for healthcare than economic ones.

A few points. Labour always scores higher than the Tories on the NHS. We don't need to make emotional arguments. They tend not to work. Remember the 2015 election and "24 hours to save the NHS"? People voted for the Tories on economic reasons and ignored us. We cannot make the same mistake again.

Debt for debt's sake is not a long-term or sustainable response. I am not arguing for dogmatic Lansley-style reforms to support the free market. The Barker Report raises important questions like why are the health and social care budgets separate? There are reforms we could and should make to join up healthcare in the UK that would improve outcomes. At least we need to agree that the current system was broken by the 2012 reforms? That alone should show that money alone is not the answer. We need reforms.

Here are a few: https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/public...MIquaij_n-3AIVgbHtCh0ZawUiEAAYASAAEgL5DvD_BwE

That's good for reason for mandatory re-selection of MP's right ? It going to be very hard to pass changes/reforms when parts of the british state and British Capitalism is trying it's best to stop these reforms(As Tony Benn time in office shows). It's would make it a hell of lot easier if all MPs in Labour Party could agree that these reforms are a good thing, which clearly isn't the case at the moment.

I oppose mandatory reselection. There are deselection processes on the books which work and which Kate Hoey, Frank Field and Chris Leslie will doubtless experience soon. The Labour Party has a democratic constitution but is not democratic. Power has always been used by the faction in charge to purge the faction that is out of power.

Deselection would mean, in practice, that an MP has to get and retain the confidence of a small selection of the membership - those who attend meetings, and who are not representative of the Party or of the constituency. It would lead to MPs becoming delegates rather than representatives, and push the PLP to the left, which (in my view) will undermine us at the ballot box. It is hard enough winning votes at local elections when the Tory Party consider Momentum to be a Stalinist organisation running the Party from the shadows.
 
Housing is really the major issue why the labour moderates can't win either internal elections or general elections right now. We all agree on tax and spend for the NHS, but it's hard to imagine labour centrists being in favour of policies that feck landlords. And it's going to be impossible to fix the housing crisis without landlords losing significant wealth and large parts of their property portfolios. There needs to be a significant programme of social housing construction (and acquisition of local housing stock), significant rent controls and tenants rights (most obvious examples being pets, children and LHA recipients which most landlords won't allow in their properties).
 
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My point here is that it is important to give Bevan's actions context. He compromised a lot to get the NHS Act passed. He also designed a system that needed reform 3 years after creation, and which has sadly always struggled around issues of funding. He was given backing in Cabinet by Attlee and could not have got the Bill through without the 146 seat majority Labour had. Of course we can hold up the NHS as a shining achievement of Labour in Government. It just took a lot more than Nye Bevan's will.
I'm not questioning the context. I'm questioning whether the NHS would be what it is (namely free at point of use) if someone more moderate was at the helm.

A few points. Labour always scores higher than the Tories on the NHS. We don't need to make emotional arguments. They tend not to work. Remember the 2015 election and "24 hours to save the NHS"? People voted for the Tories on economic reasons and ignored us. We cannot make the same mistake again.
Honestly, the major labour policies I remember from the 2015 elections were immigration reform and minor reversals of austerity. Those were the policies they promoted heavily. The vote share for labour jumped significantly when they moved further to the left in 2017 and made no concessions on policies or branding.

Debt for debt's sake is not a long-term or sustainable response. I am not arguing for dogmatic Lansley-style reforms to support the free market. The Barker Report raises important questions like why are the health and social care budgets separate? There are reforms we could and should make to join up healthcare in the UK that would improve outcomes. At least we need to agree that the current system was broken by the 2012 reforms? That alone should show that money alone is not the answer. We need reforms.
It's not debt for debts sake, it's for specific expansions in healthcare and the welfare state. Also I'm not arguing against any particular reform here. I'm just making the case for ambitious policies. I don't think centrists will appeal to enough of the electorate to be successful now or in the near future.
 
Housing is really the major issue why the labour moderates can't win either internal elections or general elections. We all agree on tax and spend for the NHS, but it's hard to imagine labour centrists being in favour of policies that feck landlords. And it's going to be impossible to fix the housing crisis without landlords losing significant wealth and large parts of their property portfolios. There needs to be a significant programme of social housing construction (and acquisition of local housing stock), significant rent controls and tenants rights (most obvious examples being pets, children and LHA recipients which most landlords won't allow in their properties).

50% of second home owners are over 54: https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/bns/BN237.pdf

And we do need to deal with it as a nation: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...launch-tax-attack-second-home-owners-new-buy/

The younger generations are getting shafted.

I would note though that the current set of Labour MPs all stood on the 2017 manifesto with its housing plans and rent controls. A good number of centrist Labour MPs would support those measures in my view. This isn't a hill they want to die on (Chris Leslie excepted).
 
A good number of centrist Labour MPs would support those measures in my view. This isn't a hill they want to die on (Chris Leslie excepted).
It's not that they're going to shit the bed when said policies are introduced. It's that they won't go far enough when drafting and enacting those policies. See new labour which despite better than the governments preceding and following it did nowhere near enough to control or improve the sector.
 
I'm not questioning the context. I'm questioning whether the NHS would be what it is (namely free at point of use) if someone more moderate was at the helm.

I don't know. Such is the nature of hypotheticals. It would have been interesting to imagine a system designed by Ernie Bevin though.

Honestly, the major labour policies I remember from the 2015 elections were immigration reform and minor reversals of austerity. Those were the policies they promoted heavily. The vote share for labour jumped significantly when they moved further to the left in 2017 and made no concessions on policies or branding.

The policies of Corbyn and the policies of Miliband were very, very similar:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-different-ed-milibands-or-even-new-labour-so

https://labourlist.org/2017/04/corbyns-policy-platform-and-why-he-could-be-the-heir-to-ed-miliband/

https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/questions-all-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3

The branding was certainly different. The presentation certainly was, as the manifesto glossed over the issue of whether we would end the benefits freeze: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39991866

It's not debt for debts sake, it's for specific expansions in healthcare and the welfare state. Also I'm not arguing against any particular reform here. I'm just making the case for ambitious policies. I don't think centrists will appeal to enough of the electorate to be successful now or in the near future.

And where we differ is that spending money is not ambitious enough. We need to first repeal the 2012 changes to the NHS and then combine the health and social care budgets and provisions, ensuring that care focuses on the individual rather than the diagnosis. In short, the Barker Report's proposals.
 
It's not that they're going to shit the bed when said policies are introduced. It's that they won't go far enough when drafting and enacting those policies. See new labour which despite better than the governments preceding and following it did nowhere near enough to control or improve the sector.

The reality is that Corbyn has the job until he voluntarily steps down. So the Left is in the ascendency in the Party. So anyone arguing for centrism or for a moderation in views is effectively arguing that Corbyn should temper his views. So the people writing Labour policies for the foreseeable future are the Left in my view.

I think the New Labour Government was too timid in part, and in part they were cautious after 18 years of Tory rule and unsure what the electorate would accept. Then Iraq came and basically ruined the second and third terms.
 
I oppose mandatory reselection. There are deselection processes on the books which work and which Kate Hoey, Frank Field and Chris Leslie will doubtless experience soon. The Labour Party has a democratic constitution but is not democratic. Power has always been used by the faction in charge to purge the faction that is out of power.

Deselection would mean, in practice, that an MP has to get and retain the confidence of a small selection of the membership - those who attend meetings, and who are not representative of the Party or of the constituency. It would lead to MPs becoming delegates rather than representatives, and push the PLP to the left, which (in my view) will undermine us at the ballot box. It is hard enough winning votes at local elections when the Tory Party consider Momentum to be a Stalinist organisation running the Party from the shadows.
Ah fair enough.
 
The reality is that Corbyn has the job until he voluntarily steps down. So the Left is in the ascendency in the Party. So anyone arguing for centrism or for a moderation in views is effectively arguing that Corbyn should temper his views. So the people writing Labour policies for the foreseeable future are the Left in my view.

I think the New Labour Government was too timid in part, and in part they were cautious after 18 years of Tory rule and unsure what the electorate would accept. Then Iraq came and basically ruined the second and third terms.

Absolutely fair criticism. For all his bravado I think Blair was for quite a long time after 1997 someone unsure of himself. Fixated on that second consecutive term that despite the good that was done, there was a lot more than could have been done with that first term majority.
 
We need to first repeal the 2012 changes to the NHS and then combine the health and social care budgets and provisions, ensuring that care focuses on the individual rather than the diagnosis. In short, the Barker Report's proposals.
Tbf this was in the 2017 manifesto. I don't think they mentioned the Barker report but all the particular points you've brought were there.
 
Absolutely fair criticism. For all his bravado I think Blair was for quite a long time after 1997 someone unsure of himself. Fixated on that second consecutive term that despite the good that was done, there was a lot more than could have been done with that first term majority.

Blair was mostly just interested in foreign policy as time went on. Brown did a lot of the economic legwork.
 
Milliband's plan of a joining up care for the elderly with the NHS was a great idea and a great shame it never happened. It's the consequence of pretending public perception of someone's electability doesn't matter. I've much more time for Milliband than I do Corbyn but in his own way he was spectacularly ill-suited for the leadership position and that was obvious to everyone fairly quickly.

Had he recognised his own short comings before it harmed the party then maybe we would now have a Labour govt of which he'd be a part, implementing that right now. He was also keen on tackling the energy companies. Ironically Milliband's manifesto in many ways seemed much more radical than Corbyn's plan for govt, which primarily seems to be about renationalising the railways.
 
Milliband's plan of a joining up care for the elderly with the NHS was a great idea and a great shame it never happened. It's the consequence of pretending public perception of someone's electability doesn't matter. I've much more time for Milliband than I do Corbyn but in his own way he was spectacularly ill-suited for the leadership position and that was obvious to everyone fairly quickly.

Had he recognised his own short comings before it harmed the party then maybe we would now have a Labour govt of which he'd be a part, implementing that right now. He was also keen on tackling the energy companies. Ironically Milliband's manifesto in many ways seemed much more radical than Corbyn's plan for govt, which primarily seems to be about renationalising the railways.

Again, part of the problem was that there weren't really any other viable alternatives. David Miliband has sort of become deified as this great leader Labour never had as a consequence of his brother surprisingly beating him, but he's an absolute damp squib who'd have struggled to connect with the public and who'd have struggled to move the party forward. Burnham might have been alright but clearly wasn't popular (as exemplified in the 2010 vote) and the other options besides that were Abbott and Balls.

Ed's problem wasn't so much him I don't think and more the way he marketed himself. He tried to appear as this competent and calm Blair/Cameron clone when in reality he should've played up his quirkiness to audiences, tried to use his sense of humour more often etc. But like Corbyn and Brown before him he's faced the problem of far greater media scrutiny and baseless criticism than Blair ever did, cause Blair had Murdoch on his side.
 
Ed's problem wasn't so much him I don't think and more the way he marketed himself. He tried to appear as this competent and calm Blair/Cameron clone when in reality he should've played up his quirkiness to audiences, tried to use his sense of humour more often etc. But like Corbyn and Brown before him he's faced the problem of far greater media scrutiny and baseless criticism than Blair ever did, cause Blair had Murdoch on his side.

Since Ed lost the election and has just resorted to being himself, he actually comes across as being a lot more likeable. He shows a decent sense of humour and is a bit self deprecating... it makes him far more relatable. He would have stood a much better chance of winning if he was actually coached less... it's a shame.
 
Since Ed lost the election and has just resorted to being himself, he actually comes across as being a lot more likeable. He shows a decent sense of humour and is a bit self deprecating... it makes him far more relatable. He would have stood a much better chance of winning if he was actually coached less... it's a shame.

Not sure he was ever really leadership material. He's a geeky ideas man that would have been a huge asset to the party in government but never suited to be the leader. He was young, energetic and bursting with great ideas but that's never alone enough. If you don't transmit well you stand little chance. He was never 'TV ready'. I know we can say it's a shame things have to be like that but admitting it is and getting someone capable of ousting the Tories has always been the lesser of two evils to my mind than pretending it isn't and watching them celebrate their 8th anniversary, and counting, in power.

Labour have only ever achieved power by occupying the centre ground and therefore needs a leader who can appeal to small c conservatives as much as not alienate the far left too much. If Miliband was a better communicator he could have stood a chance. But he wasn't so he didn't and here we are.

In 40 years only one person who wasn't a Tory has won a general election. Nevermind all the bullshit, look at who it was and you'll see just where Labour needs to position itself, and to whom it has to appeal to, in order to win.
 
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In 40 years only one person who wasn't a Tory has won a general election. Nevermind all the bullshit, look at who it was and you'll see just where Labour needs to position itself, and to whom it has to appeal to, in order to win.

Times change mate... attitudes change.

This hypothesis that future generations grow up to think and act the same way as those before them is a bit of a stretch.
 
Times change mate... attitudes change.

This hypothesis that future generations grow up to think and act the same way as those before them is a bit of a stretch.

Attitudes do change but since he left the party has steadily moved more to the left and alienated what was often called 'middle England' it won under those years and lost 3 consecutive general elections. You have 18 years of Tory rule before him, 3 successive election defeats after him. I don't see how that's a great endorsement for the idea that times have moved on to the point that appealing to the centre should no longer be a pressing concern for a Labour party seeking to regain power.

Even Thatcher as extreme as she appears now, appealed to the centre far more than Kinnock and Foot did at the time. Major, Blair, Cameron and May all appealed to that same demographic as much as or more than their opponents at the time. There is zero evidence to substantiate the people have 'moved on' from electing the most centrist option at the elections aside from wishful thinking.
 
Blairs elections got 42%, 40% and 35% vote shares, it's not really a trend you want to continue. Brown got 29%, Ed 30% and Corbyn 40%, that very much is a trend you want to continue.
 
Attitudes do change but since he left the party has steadily moved more to the left and alienated what was often called 'middle England' it won under those years and lost 3 consecutive general elections. You have 18 years of Tory rule before him, 3 successive election defeats after him. I don't see how that's a great endorsement for the idea that times have moved on to the point that appealing to the centre should no longer be a pressing concern for a Labour party seeking to regain power.

Even Thatcher as extreme as she appears now, appealed to the centre far more than Kinnock and Foot did at the time. Major, Blair, Cameron and May all appealed to that same demographic as much as or more than their opponents at the time. There is zero evidence to substantiate the people have 'moved on' from electing the most centrist option at the elections aside from wishful thinking.

That's not true at all. Thatcher was regarded as extreme by many even within her party and changed what the centre-ground was by implementing drastic tax cuts. In that sense she's probably the most significant leader the country has had alongside Attlee in the past century when it comes to implementing change. Your assumption here is that the 'centre' remains static - that's blatantly not true. The idea of a welfare state would've been seen as batshit insane a few decades before it was introduced.
 
Blairs elections got 42%, 40% and 35% vote shares, it's not really a trend you want to continue. Brown got 29%, Ed 30% and Corbyn 40%, that very much is a trend you want to continue.

Eh...voting percentages aren't always the best way to look at it as it can depend on how third parties etc are doing. May's current government drastically improved their vote share last year but did demonstrably worse than they did in 2015. Although yes, last year's result was an indicator of a positive trend, and certainly Blair's final election win was with an incredibly poor total that was lucky to get him a majority.
 
Eh...voting percentages aren't always the best way to look at it as it can depend on how third parties etc are doing. May's current government drastically improved their vote share last year but did demonstrably worse than they did in 2015. Although yes, last year's result was an indicator of a positive trend, and certainly Blair's final election win was with an incredibly poor total that was lucky to get him a majority.
It's a good measure of the popular will and voting patterns.
 
It's a good measure of the popular will and voting patterns.

It isn't absolute though. As I say May is horrendously unpopular but by a measure of voting share alone is the most successful politician the country has had since Blair. I don't think anyone would arguably that's genuinely the case. The collapse of the Lib Dems (and their respectable totals from 97-10) are important to consider. Although again, do agree with your general point that the trend was an upward one for Labour in the last election.
 
As I say May is horrendously unpopular but by a measure of voting share alone is the most successful politician the country has had since Blair.
Okay, but, is there a popular politician out there? Is there anyone who wouldn't be mostly hated the second they're leading a political party? Are Boris, or Mogg or whoever the tories put in next going to be popular? Is anyone who replaces Corbyn for labour going to be at all popular?

Labour leaders are going to be liked by their base, hated by the everyone else, same for the tories. And the third party leaders will go relatively unnoticed.
 
Attitudes do change but since he left the party has steadily moved more to the left and alienated what was often called 'middle England' it won under those years and lost 3 consecutive general elections. You have 18 years of Tory rule before him, 3 successive election defeats after him. I don't see how that's a great endorsement for the idea that times have moved on to the point that appealing to the centre should no longer be a pressing concern for a Labour party seeking to regain power.

Moved to the left and increased their vote share by 10% at the last GE you mean? Yeah, yeah... you will tell me they still lost, and I don't disagree. Although where is the evidence that they would have done better if they'd gone more centrist?

I feel like the country is fairly divided at the moment... and this idea that one party could just change tack and suddenly run away into some unassailable lead is very unconvincing. Where's the evidence? Although I would like to see Labour come out against Brexit or at least in favour of a people's vote (just because I think it's the right thing to do).

If I was a Conservative however, I would be very concerned about the future of the party... failure to attract younger voters and a millennial generation that have largely been left behind by them and their policies? Very choppy waters ahead for them I would say.
 
If I was a Conservative however, I would be very concerned about the future of the party... failure to attract younger voters and a millennial generation that have largely been left behind by them and their policies?
The average millennial isn't expected to inherit anything until they're about 60 so they're uber fecked with that generation.
 
Although one demographic change does favour the tories, low birthrates. The decrease, especially seen around the late 90s-early 00s means there won't be as many new voters coming into the fold as usual. Britain managed to avoid a demographic catastrophe with lots of EU members, especially from Poland and Eastern Europe coming in around the mid 00s-late 10s, but a low enough number of those have applied for citizenship that they won't have an impact in general elections.
 
Moved to the left and increased their vote share by 10% at the last GE you mean? Yeah, yeah... you will tell me they still lost, and I don't disagree. Although where is the evidence that they would have done better if they'd gone more centrist?

I feel like the country is fairly divided at the moment... and this idea that one party could just change tack and suddenly run away into some unassailable lead is very unconvincing. Where's the evidence? Although I would like to see Labour come out against Brexit or at least in favour of a people's vote (just because I think it's the right thing to do).

If I was a Conservative however, I would be very concerned about the future of the party... failure to attract younger voters and a millennial generation that have largely been left behind by them and their policies? Very choppy waters ahead for them I would say.

This is absolutely true. Young people always vote Labour, but the extent to which they're voting Labour is increasing with each election. The Tories have always been able to appeal to voters by implementing policies which they argue will help those same voters obtain capital - with home-owning becoming increasingly difficult they're going to be faced with a generation of people who for the most part don't see the benefit of their policies at all unless they adapt in a way which will involve them adapting a lot of their core beliefs. Which is why I think the mantra that 'the most centrist option always wins' fails to take into account a lot of the significant social changes we're seeing within the country currently. The number of working people who actually benefit from Tory economic policy is shrinking rapidly, and it's starting to show. For all the complaints that Corbyn only appeals to students and young people who don't know enough about the real world etc, it's pensioners who're currently keeping the Tories afloat.
 
People tend to move to the right as they get older. I don't necessarily see anything about the chant or rallies in the field that I think will make a long-term difference to that. Surely it's down to any competent leader to try and win those votes not endorse a strategy that maybe in 20 years time they'll be fewer of the 50+ voters of today around with a fingers crossed that the old adage outlined in my first sentence somehow doesn't play out.

People tend to move right as they get older and tend to be more likely to vote.

The challenge then seems obvious. Sadly many seem to think the answer of the challenge is to argue "vote share" matters and that a 179 majority win is pretty much the same as losing an election 20 years later because the vote share broke down to pretty much the same. Or membership figures. Or event attendance. Or anything else that literally means absolutely feck all when it comes down to it.
 
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People tend to move to the right as they get older. I don't necessarily see anything about the chant or rallies in the field that I think will make a long-term difference to that. Surely it's down to any competent leader to try and win those votes not endorse a strategy that maybe in 20 years time they'll be fewer of the 50+ voters of today around with a fingers crossed that the old adage outlined in my first sentence somehow doesn't play out.

People tend to move right as they get older and tend to be more likely to vote.

People in previous generations moved to the right because of their personal circumstances led them to do so. They became wealthier, owned homes etc. We're a product of our environment.

You seriously believe the same thing will happen to younger generations at the moment on a similar scale to what it has in the past? People who have grown up under austerity, slow wage growth and high house prices? You'd have to be incredibly out of touch to think this is likely.
 
People tend to move to the right as they get older. I don't necessarily see anything about the chant or rallies in the field that I think will make a long-term difference to that. Surely it's down to any competent leader to try and win those votes not endorse a strategy that maybe in 20 years time they'll be fewer of the 50+ voters of today around with a fingers crossed that the old adage outlined in my first sentence somehow doesn't play out.

People tend to move right as they get older and tend to be more likely to vote.

The challenge then seems obvious. Sadly many seem to think the answer of the challenge is to argue "vote share" matters and that a 179 majority win is pretty much the same as losing an election 20 years later because the vote share broke down to pretty much the same. Or membership figures. Or event attendance. Or anything else that literally means absolutely feck all when it comes down to it.

But what is considered 'right-wing' also changes. Someone who was pro-gay rights but anti-gay marriage was a liberal 50 years ago and yet would be considered conservative now. Going further back, the idea of conservatives supporting a full welfare state would've been laughable and yet it became the norm post-Attlee.

There's also the fact that the number of young people voting Labour is increasing. They always vote Labour, but the extent to which they are is increasing. Some of them will shift to the right as they age - nevertheless there's nothing to suggest they will magically fall in line with the usual number of elderly people who vote Tory. Especially when they won't be benefited from the Tory party in the same way older generations who obtained vast amounts of capital were.

You're viewing politics and the 'left' and 'right' here as something static and unchanging, which doesn't really work. The 'left' now is very different to what it was a long time ago; that someone like David Cameron could be perceived as a 'moderate' conservative in spite of his Thatcherite agenda demonstrated how politics had shifted to the right domestically. Unless the Tories rectify the current divide and lack of opportunities for young people to become successful today, they won't win them over to the extent they did with previous generations.
 


They tried again, bless them.


He knows he'll never be part of the negotiations and will just blame the Tories when it all goes wrong. Which is fair enough if he had a sensible plan of his own which he doesn't and though he may fool a chunk of the British public he can't fool the rest any more than the Tories can.
 
This from Stephen Bush in the New Stateman is a long, insightful, and throroughly depressing read:

When Jeremy Corbyn was elected as Labour leader in September 2015, most of his fellow MPs regarded his unexpected victory in the same way that you might think of a nasty cold: unpleasant, but ultimately something that would take care of itself. Optimists hoped that he could be dislodged midway through the parliament, perhaps in the summer of 2017, when little else would be going on. Pessimists expected him to lead Labour to cataclysmic defeat in 2020, which was then the due date for the next election. Both groups believed that when Corbyn stepped down, the institutions of the Labour Party would be essentially unchanged.

That calculation meant that informal conversations between some of Corbyn’s most committed Labour critics and the Liberal Democrats, including Nick Clegg and Norman Lamb, stalled quickly. Labour MPs were intensely loyal to the party brand, as one Lib Dem MP complained to me at the time: “It’s all ‘my grandfather was in this party, and his grandfather was in this party’. And really, what can you do about people who think like that?” Yet a bigger part of the reluctance to discuss a Labour split was that Corbynism was always meant to be a temporary proposition.

That calculation has changed. The 2017 general election, far from proving how electorally disastrous a left-wing platform and leader were, instead cemented Corbyn’s position. He secured 40 per cent of the vote and deprived Theresa May of her majority. Since then, he has secured his preferred candidate, Jennie Formby, as Labour’s general secretary, and the left will make up the majority of floor delegates at party conference, where rules and policies are decided.

All nine of the members’ representatives on the ruling National Executive Committee will have voted for him as leader in both 2015 and 2016. The only question is whether all nine of the original Momentum slate will be elected, or if the independent-minded Corbyn supporter Ann Black will take a seat from Peter Willsman, who was dropped by the grass-roots group after denying the extent of anti-Semitism in Labour. No candidates from centre-left factions such as Progress, or even the soft left, are in with a chance. “Our best case scenario,” one Labour MP sighs, “keeps getting worse. Two years ago, we were hoping to defeat Ann Black. Now we’re hoping that she might squeak on.”

Jeremy Corbyn’s undisputed dominance has therefore left disgruntled MPs with two choices. As one of their number puts it: “There’s Plan A, where you say, ‘We’re not going anywhere even if it takes 30 years.’ There is no red line, nothing that he could say or do that would mean you ever leave. Then there’s Plan B: you accept that he is not going anywhere, that the party has changed irrevocably into something else, and what do you do about that?”

In other words: is it time for Corbyn’s most trenchant critics to leave the party? Are we on the verge of a Labour split? To understand that, you need to comprehend how opposition to Corbyn has fractured into four groups: the Stay and Fighters; the Conscientious Objectors; the Brexit Firsters and the Policy Platformers.


One date haunts those considering a breakaway: 1983. When the Gang of Four – Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Bill Rodgers and Shirley Williams – broke away from Labour to form the Social Democratic Party two years earlier, they attracted widespread popular support. In the 1983 election, the SDP-Liberal Alliance won 7.8 million votes to Labour’s 8.5 million. But thanks to first-past-the-post, the new alliance won just 23 seats compared with Labour’s 209 (and 397 for the Conservatives).

The Gang of Four are therefore widely blamed on both the left and right of the Labour Party for splitting the vote and extending the Conservatives’ stay in office. Denis Healey, a darling of the Labour right, wrote in his memoirs that the SDP’s “most important effect was to delay the Labour Party’s recovery for nearly ten years, and to guarantee Mrs Thatcher two more terms in office”.

Today, the Labour leadership still fears that a party split could keep the Tories in power, and its outriders in the press regularly condemn the idea. However, there is another, more recent example on the minds of Corbynsceptic Labour MPs: Emmanuel Macron, who broke away from the Socialist Party in France. His new party, En Marche, carried him not only to the presidency but to a parliamentary majority, leaving the Socialists reduced to a fractured rump.

“I’m not philosophically opposed to a split,” one Labour MP told me recently. “What I am opposed to is splitting the left vote and letting the Tories in, and I can’t work out how you can know for sure that you aren’t risking that in advance.”

For most Labour MPs, though, tactical considerations don’t come into it. Leaving the party would be like losing a limb, or walking out on their families. Others worry about making ends meet if they walk away from politics. A third group is fuelled by long-standing antipathy to the Labour left – a hatred reinforced over long years of internal battle in local parties, student politics and trade unions. This “stay and fight” tendency have no intention of leaving Corbyn in possession of the party.


Among a small group of Labour MPs, that consensus is breaking down. Although they represent a minority of a minority – around a dozen of the most strident Corbynsceptics – there is a small group of Labour MPs who are planning in earnest to break away. The only questions are when and how.


So what has changed? As so often in politics, the personal element is as important as the ideological. Labour MPs from the party’s right have, for much of the Corbyn era, been part of a group on the instant messaging service WhatsApp called Birthday Club. There, they commiserate over the state of British politics, their casework load and their objections to the shadow cabinet. (The group was originally created to plan for a member’s birthday, hence the name.)

Most MPs venting via WhatsAppare not contemplating a breakaway and would not join one. Yet the conversations within them have helped dissident MPs bolster each other’s courage and discover what others are thinking. “It’s just like any other WhatsApp group,” one MP, who is opposed to any breakaway, says. “In that you can tell sometimes that people are forming other groups to talk about the group. They’ve stopped including me in talks about the future, because they know I would never leave [Labour].”

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Talks about a split are sufficiently advanced that they have moved from the digital to the physical realm, with an unlikely convenor: Tony Blair’s former chief-of-staff Jonathan Powell. He has organised several events and conversations between distressed Corbynsceptic MPs. (One well-placed source describes Powell’s events as a “holding pen” for Labourites who are contemplating a schism.)

Among Labour MPs, the question of who attends Jonathan Powell’s meetings is a topic of frequent speculation. The names that come up most frequently among their colleagues are Chuka Umunna, Liz Kendall, Chris Leslie, Gavin Shuker, Emma Reynolds, Alison McGovern and Wes Streeting.

Umunna, Kendall, Leslie and Shuker were all named in the Daily Express as attending a recent away day at the luxury Sussex bed-and-breakfast Fair Oak Farm, along with Stephen Kinnock (who later said he could not recall the meeting taking place) and around five more who were not identified. The event was described as a plot against Corbyn or a discussion of a new party.


Yet the truth is that Streeting and McGovern would never leave Labour, while former leadership candidate Kendall is still critical of the idea of a split, both in public and privately, according to several present at the meeting. “The Express story was overwritten in many ways,” says one. “Not least because no one there, and no one with half a brain, thinks there is any prospect of getting rid of Corbyn. The conversation was about what you do about the fact that there is no prospect of getting rid of Corbyn.”

One of the first questions that arises whenever a split is discussed, though, is a very simple one: is there anything that unites Corbyn’s critics, except their criticism of the Labour leader? This worry preoccupies the Policy Platformer group. “If you look at the people who are seriously talking about splitting,” says one of the Fair Oak Farm attendees, “the problem is that they only agree on one thing: they don’t like Jeremy. I don’t like Jeremy either, but we have to have a positive policy.”


As a result, there will be more meetings like the one in Sussex and a greater effort to be “more courageous” in arguing explicitly for social democracy as a governing ideology within the party, according to one MP from the Stay and Fight faction. For others – the Brexit Firsters – the question of a new party is a distraction from “stopping or softening Brexit”. “We can worry about that [a new party] afterwards, one way or the other,” says one Sussex guest, who describes herself as “emotionally disconnected” from the Labour Party. “What matters now is Brexit.”

Then comes the next question: for whom would a new party seek to bid: disaffected Labour voters? Disaffected Conservatives? Remainers? All three? How would a new party treat the Liberal Democrats – perhaps through an alliance of the kind that the SDP and Macron (who formed a pact with an older French centrist party, the Democratic Movement) both struck?

Some disenchanted MPs feel these are all the wrong questions, and that their colleagues face a simple moral choice. Call this group the Conscientious Objectors. Their membership is fluid, with several MPs prepared to make a break if the party had pursued action against Margaret Hodge for calling Corbyn an “anti-Semite”.

“The essay question,” says another Fair Oak Farm participant, “is not as people are saying: where would it get votes? What would its policy platform be? Can we realign politics? It’s: if Jeremy Corbyn is immovable as Labour leader, which he is, can you morally go to the country and say that he should be prime minister? And if you can’t, everything else has to be secondary to that.” Among this group, the conversation has moved from whether they should leave to when – and how best to kick-start life after Labour. The likelihood is that exit would be a two-stage process: MPs would declare independence and only after that form a new grouping. (There is an awareness that any new party would need to seek an understanding with the Lib Dems to avoid fighting over the same policy turf, and perhaps plunder their resources and activist base.)

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One area where potential splitters know that Jeremy Corbyn is weak is Europe. The veteran Eurosceptic is aiming to appeal to Leave-voting seats in the north and Midlands without alienating an activist base that is overwhelmingly pro-European. As a result, there is a tendency to see anti-Brexit groups (including those calling for a “People’s Vote” on the final deal) as a front for anti-Corbyn sentiment.

On the Labour right, several pro-Europeans are wary of Open Britain, the successor organisation to the Remain campaign. They believe that its call for a People’s Vote is designed to provide a pretext for MPs such as Umunna to break away from Labour, rather than being a genuine strategy. “I am actually working flat-out to stop this [Brexit],” one Labour MP complained to me, “and I’m worried that colleagues aren’t really with me, so we’ll have a hard Brexit, a split on the left and a Conservative government for 20 years.”

Another believes that Umunna, who has been privately critical of the Labour leadership on a swathe of issues, is attempting the political equivalent of “suicide by cop: he is looking to be made into a martyr”. (Long-standing allies of Umunna strongly dispute this: one reason why the MP declined to serve in the shadow cabinet in 2015 was because he disagreed with Corbyn on Europe.)

Whatever the truth, it is undeniable that Brexit provides a strong disincentive to any split occurring before March 2019, as many sceptical MPs believe they can shift Labour policy to a more pro-Remain position before they leave. They are reluctant to give up on that prize. However, that calculation illuminates another problem for Labour’s dissident MPs: the timing, and indeed the scale, of their split is not entirely within their control. The party membership is part of the story, both in driving MPs to the exit and in limiting their ability to control the terms of a split. Corbynsceptic activists have been considerably more willing to walk out of the party than Corbynsceptic MPs – so the remaining members are more pro-Corbyn than ever.

Party memberships always churn, and within Labour the traffic has been one-way, thanks to the gradual shift to the left by successive leaders since Gordon Brown left office. Party activists are far more committed to Corbyn’s leadership than they were even in 2016, when six members in ten backed him over Owen Smith. One Labour MP recently updated his mailing list to be compliant with the General Data Protection Regulation. He discovered that while his local party membership was at a record high of 300, 200 members had left since Corbyn took over as leader. “People say: ‘Oh, we’d have no resources, no activists,’” he says. “But actually there is already a breakaway in the party membership, waiting to be led by someone. Why not us?”

While disenchanted MPs console themselves with the thought of activists waiting to embrace their new party, in the present that churn is causing them problems. The former shadow chancellor Chris Leslie, another MP widely believed to be contemplating a schism, has already seen pro-Corbyn members win control of all but one position in his local party in Nottingham East. He is known to be the number one deselection target in the east Midlands; many believe he has nothing to lose by leaving Labour. “In the end, it will be the membership who decides if there is a split,” says one Corbynsceptic MP. “Do they want to maintain a social democratic presence within the party and the PLP? Or do they want a far more narrow party?”

The Labour Party’s current rules are designed to protect incumbent Labour MPs. But the expectation is that they will soon change, passing the party conference floor comfortably thanks to Momentum’s hegemony among the grass roots and the support of several of the unions.

Even without rule changes, the expectation is that several Labour MPs will face deselection, with the chances particularly high on Merseyside, where the Corbynite left is well organised and buttressed by former members of the Militant Tendency. Louise Ellman, Luciana Berger, Stephen Twigg and Frank Field come from different Labour traditions, but they are all under threat.

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This is where we are, then, as Jeremy Corbyn concludes a difficult summer and prepares for another rapturous reception at Labour conference and Momentum’s sister festival, The World Transformed. The Stay and Fighters are hunkering down; the Policy Platformers are trying to work out how to unite the disparate strands of anti-Corbyn feeling; the Brexit Firsters are waiting to see how leaving the EU works out before they do anything else; and the Conscientious Objectors are wondering how much longer they can hold on.

All these groups share the same belief: that they are best placed to oppose Corbyn. But what if they are wrong? Over the last few months, a little-known entrepreneur called Simon Franks has been touring Britain to drum up support for a new party. If he is successful, that would change the splitters’ calculations profoundly; their new grouping would not be the only game in town. Franks is in many ways the model of a departed Labour activist: the 46-year-old joined the party while Blair was leader and left when Corbyn was elected. The millionaire founder of LoveFilm was one of the vanishingly small group of businesspeople willing to be publicly identified with Labour under Ed Miliband, and he served as one of Ed Balls’s business advisers. (Most Labour MPs who met him at the time found him conceited and arrogant, I am told.)

Franks believes that a new party can succeed – quickly – without waiting for support from existing MPs. In fact, some of his allies think that their chances of success are higher without, because distrust of the established parties is so high. His new grouping, United for Change, has already attracted financial support, though those involved concede that they will need to “swallow” not only the Lib Dems but any new grouping that emerges out of the Labour Party as well.

While the new group is well-funded, money may not be enough. “I know what I would do if you gave us £50m,” one senior Liberal Democrat told me. “But as for starting a new party, do you start with premises? Buying [data on potential voters] from the supermarkets? Polling? Digital infrastructure? There’s just so much to do.”

One Labour MP who worked with Franks under Miliband is dismissive: “He’s one of those businessmen who thinks he can just walk in and buy his way to political success. Actually they’re no better at politics than we would be at running a multinational and I think he’ll get a tough lesson.”

The task ahead is not that much easier for veteran politicians, however. But for one Labour MP, it comes back to a matter of conscience. “Once you work through the stages of grief: denial, bargaining, anger, and there’s a lot of those about in the PLP at the moment, you’re left with acceptance,” says the Fair Oak Farm guest. “Acceptance that you can’t remain in the Labour Party, no matter how difficult the circumstances of leaving are. And actually, once you get there, it’s quite freeing.”

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/08/labour-party-split-inevitable-corbyn-MPs