Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Agree with you in both those replies to my posts @Frosty. The frustrations about meetings are ones I share, in the 3 years since I moved back to my hometown and it's CLP I've not been able to attend meetings because then were on Saturdays, when I work, and now they're on weekday evenings, which I work in my new job. I don't do a job which has shiftwork, but a lot of the people my age who have joined Labour since 2015 do and that basically precludes them from being able to attend meetings regularly. I definitely agree all voting should be available online or by post, because at the moment most of the people with the time to attend meetings are retired middle class folks who are still arguing New Labour/Old Labour after 30 years.

Frosty said:
The tension comes when MPs and their supporters feel threatened and then 'hit back', but this ends up looking like a broad attack on the left and enthusiastic members rather than a targeted attack on the very few entryists and hard left members that are causing friction. I have seen many MPs fall into this trap.
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This is the only bit I'd argue with. The attacks on the incoming left-wing membership were pretty blanket from the start, they weren't pointing at the aggressive minority of new members and saying 'these are a few bad eggs', they were saying 'this is what they're all like'. The idea that basically all the new members were entryists was an early line from centrist MPs and it was used as a pretext to bar thousands of people from voting in the leadership election.

Frosty said:
I have also seen other MPs genuinely reach out to the membership and build bridges. Quite a few have done this in London. This magnanimity (and shutting up about Corbyn) has helped their CLPs become effective campaigning tools and has also marginalised the few trouble-makers, if we put it that way.
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I'm especially glad to hear this. The mass membership is a huge boon and will be key in future elections if we can all pull in the same vague direction. In my local party the MP doesn't really engage with the members outside her core group, I've leafleted for her on many occasions (dab hand at it as an ex-postie) and the only time she's ever spoken to me outside of the context of me picking up leaflets from HQ was to call me to ask me to vote for Owen Smith in 2016.
 
Sultan said:
Corbyn has been a lifelong supporter of the Palestinian struggle for justice. A witch hunt on Corbyn has been ongoing for years due to his opinions on the state of Israel. He wanted an arms embargo on Israel, boycott, divestment and sanctions. He also pledged in his election manifesto to immediately recognize the state of Palestine.

Obviously, this goes against the wishes of Israeli group within the party, hence the charges of anti-Semitism and exaggerated accusations pushed by a hostile anti-labour media, the establishment, and Israeli lobby groups. Labour's Friends of Israel group coordinates its activities with the Israel embassy, which has provided funding to win lawmakers over to Israel's cause.

To label him an anti-Semite is frankly convenient and absurd. He has always been a supporter of any oppressed people or state regardless of race, religion or caste. It's his most endearing virtue.
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I can agree with most of this. Which is part of the problem.

The Israel-Palestine discussion is generally quite a hot potato that many mainstream politicians prefer to either be sitting on the fence of or at least avoid having strong views on. And Corbyn has done the opposite of that. It doesn't take more than a show of sympathy towards Palestinians to be branded a terrorist sympathiser and an anti-semite and similarly it doesn't require much to be branded a zionist-sympathising, apartheid-endorsing stooge of Israel. There's little middle ground, sadly.

It's indispituable though that the Israeli lobby is very strong and far more influential than any opposite lobby. So being a vocal pro-Palestinian comes with more pressure from press and persons of subtle power. This is what's happening to Corbyn atm.

As a critique of Corbyn what I would say is that what you describe in the last paragraph ("always been a supporter of any oppressed people or state regardless of race, religion or caste") is why in my opinion he wouldn't make a good PM or last long. Being a politician is not really about supporting justice at every on-going conflict in the world. He's in the wrong job for that. A UK politician is there to deliver the best possible results for his electorate, not for the whole world. He's not there to be "just" or "moral" really, he's there to make the best decisions on hour behalf even if they're morally dubious.

A Prime Minister who openly sides with and supports Palestine, is a Prime Minister who most likely falls out with the UK's biggest ally and partner (the US) and their President. One who scorns the biggest ally in the Middle East region, which is Israel. And one who takes a different stand from most our allies and partners in Europe. And while you could argue that it's the moral thing to do (debatable, but I can accept it as a POV) it almost certainly is the wrong thing to do in terms of foreign politics from the UK's perspective.

And that's aside from the subject of whether he is an actual anti-Semite. Because I've read the IHRA's definition of anti-Semitism and I can't say I really find any faults with it, though he refuses to accept it for reasons not yet clarified. So there's a question mark there.
 
MadMike said:
I can agree with most of this. Which is part of the problem.

The Israel-Palestine discussion is generally quite a hot potato that many mainstream politicians prefer to either be sitting on the fence of or at least avoid having strong views on. And Corbyn has done the opposite of that. It doesn't take more than a show of sympathy towards Palestinians to be branded a terrorist sympathiser and an anti-semite and similarly it doesn't require much to be branded a zionist-sympathising, apartheid-endorsing stooge of Israel. There's little middle ground, sadly.

It's indispituable though that the Israeli lobby is very strong and far more influential than any opposite lobby. So being a vocal pro-Palestinian comes with more pressure from press and persons of subtle power. This is what's happening to Corbyn atm.

As a critique of Corbyn what I would say is that what you describe in the last paragraph ("always been a supporter of any oppressed people or state regardless of race, religion or caste") is why in my opinion he wouldn't make a good PM or last long. Being a politician is not really about supporting justice at every on-going conflict in the world. He's in the wrong job for that. A UK politician is there to deliver the best possible results for his electorate, not for the whole world. He's not there to be "just" or "moral" really, he's there to make the best decisions on hour behalf even if they're morally dubious.

A Prime Minister who openly sides with and supports Palestine, is a Prime Minister who most likely falls out with the UK's biggest ally and partner (the US) and their President. One who scorns the biggest ally in the Middle East region, which is Israel. And one who takes a different stand from most our allies and partners in Europe. And while you could argue that it's the moral thing to do (debatable, but I can accept it as a POV) it almost certainly is the wrong thing to do in terms of foreign politics from the UK's perspective.

And that's aside from the subject of whether he is an actual anti-Semite. Because I've read the IHRA's definition of anti-Semitism and I can't say I really find any faults with it, though he refuses to accept it for reasons not yet clarified. So there's a question mark there.
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Thanks, Mike

Very interesting perspective and thoughts.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
This is the only bit I'd argue with. The attacks on the incoming left-wing membership were pretty blanket from the start, they weren't pointing at the aggressive minority of new members and saying 'these are a few bad eggs', they were saying 'this is what they're all like'. The idea that basically all the new members were entryists was an early line from centrist MPs and it was used as a pretext to bar thousands of people from voting in the leadership election.

Yes that is fair. I was actually thinking more recently than that, in my own MPs mis-steps since 2016. But it is certainly true that there were anti-Corbyn elements in the Party that reacted to his 2015 win by basically insulting the voters (which I found distasteful and I didn't even vote for Corbyn) and basically acting like they would do anything to undermine him. If they were sensible they would have kept their mouths shut. However their actions have, I think, made it much more difficult for principled voices of opposition to be heard, as nowadays it seems anyone who disagrees with the leader is seen in the same light as the 2015 saboteurs.

I'm especially glad to hear this. The mass membership is a huge boon and will be key in future elections if we can all pull in the same vague direction. In my local party the MP doesn't really engage with the members outside her core group, I've leafleted for her on many occasions (dab hand at it as an ex-postie) and the only time she's ever spoken to me outside of the context of me picking up leaflets from HQ was to call me to ask me to vote for Owen Smith in 2016.
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Yep, same for me. My MP is wildly popular in the constituency and thinks that is enough and doesn't need to engage with the wider membership. Which is a mistake on so many levels.

MadMike said:
I can agree with most of this. Which is part of the problem.

The Israel-Palestine discussion is generally quite a hot potato that many mainstream politicians prefer to either be sitting on the fence of or at least avoid having strong views on. And Corbyn has done the opposite of that. It doesn't take more than a show of sympathy towards Palestinians to be branded a terrorist sympathiser and an anti-semite and similarly it doesn't require much to be branded a zionist-sympathising, apartheid-endorsing stooge of Israel. There's little middle ground, sadly.

It's indispituable though that the Israeli lobby is very strong and far more influential than any opposite lobby. So being a vocal pro-Palestinian comes with more pressure from press and persons of subtle power. This is what's happening to Corbyn atm.

As a critique of Corbyn what I would say is that what you describe in the last paragraph ("always been a supporter of any oppressed people or state regardless of race, religion or caste") is why in my opinion he wouldn't make a good PM or last long. Being a politician is not really about supporting justice at every on-going conflict in the world. He's in the wrong job for that. A UK politician is there to deliver the best possible results for his electorate, not for the whole world. He's not there to be "just" or "moral" really, he's there to make the best decisions on hour behalf even if they're morally dubious.

A Prime Minister who openly sides with and supports Palestine, is a Prime Minister who most likely falls out with the UK's biggest ally and partner (the US) and their President. One who scorns the biggest ally in the Middle East region, which is Israel. And one who takes a different stand from most our allies and partners in Europe. And while you could argue that it's the moral thing to do (debatable, but I can accept it as a POV) it almost certainly is the wrong thing to do in terms of foreign politics from the UK's perspective.

And that's aside from the subject of whether he is an actual anti-Semite. Because I've read the IHRA's definition of anti-Semitism and I can't say I really find any faults with it, though he refuses to accept it for reasons not yet clarified. So there's a question mark there.
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I agree with the points about pragmatism vs idealism. Even on domestic matters the Labour Government will have to make difficult decisions. Health or education? Social care or transport? I remain sceptical that Corbyn has the ability to compromise his principles. I think McDonnell would.

I also don't think he is an anti-Semite. I think he is an anti-imperialist and that leads to odd positions - anti-NATO, anti-Western intervention, and by extension if you oppose an imperialist power you can be seen as an anti-imperialist power (Russia? Iran? Even though they are not...)
 
Frank Field has decided he will not trigger a byelection following his decision to resign the Labour party whip citing the issues of antisemitism and bullying.

The Birkenhead MP said he had huge support from people in his constituency, who had “stressed I should simply get on with the job of representing Birkenhead. Therefore, I will not be calling a byelection.

“The whole of my time will continue, as in the past, with trying to serve Birkenhead to the best of my ability and spearheading a whole series of major projects in the town.

“I also look forward to contributing further to the development of the Labour party's programme of social and economic reform.”

Field also pledged to fight any attempt to expel him from the party.

“I now have what may become a major legal dispute with the Labour party over my continuing membership of the party,” he said. “I shall fight any attempt at expelling me in every way I can and, if need be, in the courts. This interpretation of Labour's rulebook could last a long time.”

Earlier, Jeremy Corbyn said he was sorry Field had resigned the whip.

Speaking in Liverpool on Monday as he prepared to travel across the north of England campaigning on transport issues, the Labour leader said: “I'm sorry he's resigned and I thank him for all the work that he's done as an MP and for the party, but I don’t see why he had to resign.”

Asked about Field's claims of bullying in the party, the Labour leader said he did not know what the claims were, adding: “I invite all MPs to take part in the discussion and the debate.

“Obviously, bullying and intimidation have no place whatsoever in any political party, particularly the Labour party, but there has to be democratic debate within the party."


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/03/frank-field-i-will-not-trigger-a-byelection
 
Sultan said:
If a split becomes a reality you might as well write off having elections with no chance of beating the Tories. Democracy in the UK would be just in name for the foreseeable future.
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Having a series of Tory governments wouldn't make us any less of a democracy, because people would still have voted for them. I would suggest however that the best way to avoid such an unpleasant outcome would be to have an alternative party that Tory voters might actually switch to, and whatever that might be, it won't be a Corbyn/McDonnell led Labour party.
 
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Sultan said:
Corbyn has been a lifelong supporter of the Palestinian struggle for justice. A witch hunt on Corbyn has been ongoing for years due to his opinions on the state of Israel. He wanted an arms embargo on Israel, boycott, divestment and sanctions. He also pledged in his election manifesto to immediately recognize the state of Palestine.

Obviously, this goes against the wishes of Israeli group within the party, hence the charges of anti-Semitism and exaggerated accusations pushed by a hostile anti-labour media, the establishment, and Israeli lobby groups. Labour's Friends of Israel group coordinates its activities with the Israel embassy, which has provided funding to win lawmakers over to Israel's cause.

To label him an anti-Semite is frankly convenient and absurd. He has always been a supporter of any oppressed people or state regardless of race, religion or caste. It's his most endearing virtue.
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In a different thread you wrote the following:

"Until very recently in the UK you would not be eligible to contest a Parliamentary seat unless you signed a "friends of Israel" declaration."

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/middle-east-politics.433633/page-4#post-21812549

Do you still actually believe this?
 
Sultan said:
I was actually told this by my MP on my dining table.

Edit: Her husband is Jewish and he's been barred from entering Israel due to his anti-Israel views.
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Ok, but do you believe it? You think Corbyn signed this declaration?
 
2cents said:
Ok, but do you believe it? You think Corbyn signed this declaration?
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I doubt he did. He entered Parliament in 1983 and did so because he paid his dues to the Bennite wing of the Party. His route into Parliament was via inner London councils. His was Haringey. Camden is the main route into a safe seat for prospective Labour MPs (just check out how many were Camden councillors, it is more than you think). It wouldn't surprise me if there has been a requirement to sign a declaration for certain purposes. Many MPs do this - many join a union or do a union's bidding to climb the greasy pole for example.

I guess I am not madly surprised by people being asked to pledge to join LFI in exchange for a winnable seat. The Party has always had its own machinations and backroom deals.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
There are certainly people who have rejoined having left in the Blair years who openly want 'revenge', but the majority of people who've joined since 2015 did so on good faith, having never been a member of a political party, because they were genuinely enthused by the idea of a left-wing Labour Party. The right of the party have no-one to blame but themselves for being unpopular with that second group, who they treated like scum from day one, attempted to block from voting in the leadership elections and called Trots/cultists/entryists. I honestly believe that if the right of the party had been magnanimous in defeat and agreed to work for Corbyn instead of throwing their dummies out, most Labour members would have let bygones be bygones and we wouldn't be talking about mandatory re-selection. The current deselection squabble has only come about because there are MPs who openly talk about how they don't want Corbyn to be PM, shit-talk the party's electoral opportunities at every turn, launch a new assault on the leader whenever Labour are looking handy in the polls and sneak around trying to form new parties instead of trying to oppose the Tories and win elections. Not unsurprising that a lot of those people wouldn't be missed by the majority of Labour members.

The party splitting would be a disaster for everyone but the Tories in our electoral system. If I was a centrist I'd work my arse off to get Labour into power and then push for a switch to some version of proportional representation. At that point they can fanny about trying to build new parties, because at least then a coalition government would be possible and it wont just be handing over power to the Tories forever. Funnily enough, Blair actually included a promise for a referendum on PR in his '97 manifesto but dropped it because at the time FPTP was giving Labour huge majorities.
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Indeed. The party that wins the centre-ground is almost always the largest. The centre-ground can be moved of course, but not as much as you need I'm afraid.
 
2cents said:
Ok, but do you believe it? You think Corbyn signed this declaration?
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I'm just relaying something I was told. I have no great depth of knowledge on the subject to positively say it's true or false.
 
Frosty said:
Knowing your MP Sultan I would presume that it is both factually true and presented as worse than it is.
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Hey buddy!

She is a very modest lady. Also a massive Corbynite.
 
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Results of the NEC Summer Ballot 2018
 
Sultan said:
Corbyn has been a lifelong supporter of the Palestinian struggle for justice. A witch hunt on Corbyn has been ongoing for years due to his opinions on the state of Israel. He wanted an arms embargo on Israel, boycott, divestment and sanctions. He also pledged in his election manifesto to immediately recognize the state of Palestine.

Obviously, this goes against the wishes of Israeli group within the party, hence the charges of anti-Semitism and exaggerated accusations pushed by a hostile anti-labour media, the establishment, and Israeli lobby groups. Labour's Friends of Israel group coordinates its activities with the Israel embassy, which has provided funding to win lawmakers over to Israel's cause.

To label him an anti-Semite is frankly convenient and absurd. He has always been a supporter of any oppressed people or state regardless of race, religion or caste. It's his most endearing virtue.
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It may be his most endearing virtue, but as far as I’m concerned the major responsibility of a national leader is to their own country, it’s people and it’s interests. Nothing Corbyn says or does is going to change the situation in Israel, but this ideological battle is currently doing significant damage to Labour and helping ensure that the UK will continue to suffer under a hard right wing government.

We’re just months away from the most significant political crisis in the UK since WW2, and our opposition is fighting with itself over anti-semitism. It’s almost beyond parody at this point. We could go crashing out of Europe, see the economy disintegrate and STILL end up with a Tory government if Labour don’t pull their heads out of their asses and start focusing on their actual jobs.
 
On the very day that Johnson writes letter attacking May's Brexit position, Labour elect a man to their ruling body who believes instances of antisemitism are dreamt up by "Jewish Trump fanatics". That sums up the party perfectly.

The day of reckoning for Brexit, i.e the day we fall out without a deal, I fully expect Labour to find someone who's previously ranted about Jews running the banks and being responsible for everyone's financial hardship, and make them honourary life president of the party - just in case anyone was starting to think they might be ready to be a sensible alternative government.
 
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Sultan said:
Corbyn has been a lifelong supporter of the Palestinian struggle for justice. A witch hunt on Corbyn has been ongoing for years due to his opinions on the state of Israel. He wanted an arms embargo on Israel, boycott, divestment and sanctions. He also pledged in his election manifesto to immediately recognize the state of Palestine.

Obviously, this goes against the wishes of Israeli group within the party, hence the charges of anti-Semitism and exaggerated accusations pushed by a hostile anti-labour media, the establishment, and Israeli lobby groups. Labour's Friends of Israel group coordinates its activities with the Israel embassy, which has provided funding to win lawmakers over to Israel's cause.

To label him an anti-Semite is frankly convenient and absurd. He has always been a supporter of any oppressed people or state regardless of race, religion or caste. It's his most endearing virtue.
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It’s not that simple. People have reservations about Corbyn not only for his stand on Israel, but the company he has kept in the past. I don’t find him endearing. I find him naive and potentially dangerous, and I could never vote for a labour party led by him. And I guess I’m not the only one, given labours polling.
 
Oscie said:
On the very day that Johnson writes letter attacking May's Brexit position, Labour elect a man to their ruling body who believes instances of antisemitism are dreamt up by "Jewish Trump fanatics". That sums up the party perfectly.

The day of reckoning for Brexit, i.e the day we fall out without a deal, I fully expect Labour to find someone who's previously ranted about Jews running the banks and being responsible for everyone's financial hardship, and make them honourary life president of the party - just in case anyone was starting to think they might be ready to be a sensible alternative government.
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What day is that, the no deal day? Its not over yet and you are guessing.

For what its worth i too am very pro the palestinian people, does that make me anti Semitic ?

You still haven't come round to admitting your perceived 'Hell' might be down to the tories and them alone.
 
nickm said:
It’s not that simple. People have reservations about Corbyn not only for his stand on Israel, but the company he has kept in the past. I don’t find him endearing. I find him naive and potentially dangerous, and I could never vote for a labour party led by him. And I guess I’m not the only one, given labours polling.
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Naive is a good way to describe him, yet none of it should be unexpected from a man who never wanted/expected the job he has. He's leading the party as if he is still a backbench MP. The number of speeches, media appearances and interviews he gives are a tiny fraction of what you'd expect a leader of the opposition to undertake, especially a leader of the opposition vs a government in existential crisis. He has to be strong-armed into even mentioning Brexit and whenever he is he is terrible and hiding the fact he'd rather not talk about it.

Yet a large chunk of his support genuinely don't care about that. They don't care about Brexit, they don't care about poll ratings, they won't even really care if the Tories win the next election. They care about this imaginary enemy called the "Blairites", that they think includes Gordon Brown yet apparently it's beyond the pale to call them a bit thick.

Ultimately anyone who leads the newly emboldened hard left is on a hiding to nothing as they're a constituency that will refuse to ever be pleased. Even if Corbyn walks into Number 10 the second they realise he isn't going to scrap Trident and he himself realises he's going to have to work within the practical realities of a capitalist economy, he will then become the enemy. Just as Blair did. Just as Callaghan did. Just as Wilson did.
 
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Frosty said:
I would presume that it is both factually true and presented as worse than it is.
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Could you expand a bit on this so I can get my head around it? The claim @Sultan made is that until a few years ago aspiring MPs had to sign a 'Friends of Israel' declaration - whatever that is - in order to be permitted to take a seat in parliament. In the context in which that claim was made, one could only assume the 'declaration' involved some sort of commitment to accept certain pro-Israel agendas. Given that there have been many fanatically anti-Israel/Zionist MPs who have successfully taken their seats in parliament over the years, including the current leader of the Labour Party, it seems at best an odd claim.
 
2cents said:
Could you expand a bit on this so I can get my head around it? The claim @Sultan made is that until a few years ago aspiring MPs had to sign a 'Friends of Israel' declaration - whatever that is - in order to be permitted to take a seat in parliament. In the context in which that claim was made, one could only assume the 'declaration' involved some sort of commitment to accept certain pro-Israel agendas. Given that there have been many fanatically anti-Israel/Zionist MPs who have successfully taken their seats in parliament over the years, including the current leader of the Labour Party, it seems at best an odd claim.
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Sounds like a dodgy claim to me, or a misunderstanding as Sultan isn’t a crank. Once you are elected, you are elected. Friends of Israel, according to wiki, seems to be one of the larger lobby groups but there’s no shortage of groups dedicated to specific countries.
 
2cents said:
Could you expand a bit on this so I can get my head around it? The claim @Sultan made is that until a few years ago aspiring MPs had to sign a 'Friends of Israel' declaration - whatever that is - in order to be permitted to take a seat in parliament. In the context in which that claim was made, one could only assume the 'declaration' involved some sort of commitment to accept certain pro-Israel agendas. Given that there have been many fanatically anti-Israel/Zionist MPs who have successfully taken their seats in parliament over the years, including the current leader of the Labour Party, it seems at best an odd claim.
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I found this with a simple Google search.

Full article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ed-against-mps-set-up-political-groups-labour

“Not a lot of young people want to be affiliated. For years, every MP that joined the parliament joined the LFI. They’re not doing it any more in the Labour party. CFI, they’re doing it automatically. All the 14 new MPs who got elected in the last elections did it automatically. In the LFI it didn’t happen. We need to get more people on board. It’s a lot of work, actually."
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2cents said:
Could you expand a bit on this so I can get my head around it? The claim @Sultan made is that until a few years ago aspiring MPs had to sign a 'Friends of Israel' declaration - whatever that is - in order to be permitted to take a seat in parliament. In the context in which that claim was made, one could only assume the 'declaration' involved some sort of commitment to accept certain pro-Israel agendas. Given that there have been many fanatically anti-Israel/Zionist MPs who have successfully taken their seats in parliament over the years, including the current leader of the Labour Party, it seems at best an odd claim.
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So basically advancing in politics is all about who you know. Much more so than how good you are and whether you would make a good MP/Councillor.

I have been around enough Labour Party apparatchiks to know that prospective candidates get given advice on how to ingratiate themselves to get ahead on how to become a PPC. For example Dan Garden worked for Len McCluskey and was parachuted into a safe seat aged 27. Richard Burton's uncle was an MP and so he had his family work the backrooms to get himself a seat. Luciana Berger knew the retiring MP and lived with her to meet the residency requirements. And so on.

I tried to get a job in parliament and gave up after 40 or so applications because most MPs assistants are given to friends or friends or people who were in Young Labour or other pressure groups. I was advised to join an affiliated group and press the flesh to become known and then my success rate would increase.

through the New Labour years LFI became known as a place not just to support Israel but also to meet important people and make connections. It does not surprise me at all that prospective MPs would have been given advice to join the organisation and that a number of PPCs were members of LFI or similar groups.

Now I know of Sultan's MP and her husband and they are supporters of the Palestinians. It would not be surprising that they would look on these arrangements with LFI with suspicion and suspect something fishy was going on. Which it was, in a way, but just not the way they suspected. And it should be said that many MPs were selected because of their links to unions or other pressure groups during this time.

Since Corbyn and the left have taken power, links to unions have become more important and I would expect this to continue. Such is politics.
 
Oscie said:
Naive is a good way to describe him, yet none of it should be unexpected from a man who never wanted/expected the job he has. He's leading the party as if he is still a backbench MP. The number of speeches, media appearances and interviews he gives are a tiny fraction of what you'd expect a leader of the opposition to undertake, especially a leader of the opposition vs a government in existential crisis. He has to be strong-armed into even mentioning Brexit and whenever he is he is terrible and hiding the fact he'd rather not talk about it.

Yet a large chunk of his support genuinely don't care about that. They don't care about Brexit, they don't care about poll ratings, they won't even really care if the Tories win the next election. They care about this imaginary enemy called the "Blairites", that they think includes Gordon Brown yet apparently it's beyond the pale to call them a bit thick.

Ultimately anyone who leads the newly emboldened hard left is on a hiding to nothing as they're a constituency that will refuse to ever be pleased. Even if Corbyn walks into Number 10 the second they realise he isn't going to scrap Trident and he himself realises he's going to have to work within the practical realities of a capitalist economy, he will then become the enemy. Just as Blair did. Just as Callaghan did. Just as Wilson did.
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With the NEC voting results we have received final confirmation that Corbyn is just a Cult within the party.

His supporters have all drunk the Kool-aid and believe that a disastrous Brexit will lead to a social revolution where the proletariat will storm the Bastille...tear down the barricades along Whitehall and institute a new dawn of collectivised trains, coal mines, farms and record tractor production in the final year of Corbyn's 5 year plan.

The fact that his sixth form politics approach carries no relevance in the real world anymore has been conveniently forgotten by his army of "Woke" social warriors fighting internecine battles over the minutiae of gender politics or the validity of the Israeli state.

The real danger is that by avoiding the centre ground of politics he is creating a vacuum that gets filled by parties of the far right. I can't believe I am watching the Labour party actively assist in sleepwalking the country towards economic oblivion just so they can blame the Tories for it.

If they think that people will flock to them following a terrible brexit then they are wrong. People will quite rightly say - "well if it was such a bad idea what did you do to stop it?"

Corbyn's minor abilities would be stretched running an allotment society. It takes the Party weeks to release a statement on a subject. They should be holding daily briefings as a "government in waiting" given how perilous the state of the Tory party is.

Under that sort of pressure May would have gone by now. Corbyn has let her off the hook.

However that idea would be seen as too corporate, too spin doctoring, too blairite to pass by the corbynistas who prefer to take the socialist worker demonstration approach of standing in a rainy town centre with smash the system placards shouting loudly while no passer by is interested.
 
Adisa said:
Watch them cock this up and watch this fiasco rumble on and on.
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surely they must vote to adopt this and stop the rot...
Labour did not adopt these examples from the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism:

  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel than to the interests of their own nations
  • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, for instance by claiming that the existence of the state of Israel is a racist endeavour
  • Requiring of Israel a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
On the crucial issue of Israel, the IHRA has said that attacks on the state as a collective Jewish endeavour may be regarded as anti-Semitic, but criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country is not.
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Im no fan of the policies being pursued by Israel but the simple and straight forward solution (and one that seems perfectly reasonable) is to simply incorporate the examples... perhaps Jeremy has another kind of solution in mind:nervous:
 
Frosty said:
So basically advancing in politics is all about who you know. Much more so than how good you are and whether you would make a good MP/Councillor.

I have been around enough Labour Party apparatchiks to know that prospective candidates get given advice on how to ingratiate themselves to get ahead on how to become a PPC. For example Dan Garden worked for Len McCluskey and was parachuted into a safe seat aged 27. Richard Burton's uncle was an MP and so he had his family work the backrooms to get himself a seat. Luciana Berger knew the retiring MP and lived with her to meet the residency requirements. And so on.

I tried to get a job in parliament and gave up after 40 or so applications because most MPs assistants are given to friends or friends or people who were in Young Labour or other pressure groups. I was advised to join an affiliated group and press the flesh to become known and then my success rate would increase.

through the New Labour years LFI became known as a place not just to support Israel but also to meet important people and make connections. It does not surprise me at all that prospective MPs would have been given advice to join the organisation and that a number of PPCs were members of LFI or similar groups.

Now I know of Sultan's MP and her husband and they are supporters of the Palestinians. It would not be surprising that they would look on these arrangements with LFI with suspicion and suspect something fishy was going on. Which it was, in a way, but just not the way they suspected. And it should be said that many MPs were selected because of their links to unions or other pressure groups during this time.

Since Corbyn and the left have taken power, links to unions have become more important and I would expect this to continue. Such is politics.
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Very interesting post, thanks.
 
Dobba said:
Keep up at the back, getting rid of May isn't important anymore. Frank Field did everything he could to ensure she didn't go and he's in the process of being canonised.

Also, you missed out a joke about Corbyn's age to complete the set.
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Given I can see the damage happening every day this appalling government is in power then yes getting rid of May and having a fully functioning government in charge is important.

What most of the Corbynistas don't seem to get is that running the country isn't like winning a students union balloon debate. People's jobs, health and lives are being affected by the choices made by May and her cronies and if Corbyn was a credible alternative then you would see that reflected in polls or in local election results

What does Corbyn's age have to do with his competence and why would I make a joke about it?

Cue response using "Blairite" "main stream media" "deselection"
 
buchansleftleg said:
Given I can see the damage happening every day this appalling government is in power then yes getting rid of May and having a fully functioning government in charge is important.

What most of the Corbynistas don't seem to get is that running the country isn't like winning a students union balloon debate. People's jobs, health and lives are being affected by the choices made by May and her cronies and if Corbyn was a credible alternative then you would see that reflected in polls or in local election results

What does Corbyn's age have to do with his competence and why would I make a joke about it?
Cue response using "Blairite" "main stream "
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What defines a credible alternative in your eyes? A lot of the issues you likely allude to are at the focal point of Labours policy - housing, fair taxation, the NHS, key public services.
 
buchansleftleg said:
What does Corbyn's age have to do with his competence and why would I make a joke about it?
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It's part of the 'moderates' Infinity Gauntlet. Cult, party of protest, references to school politics, Yvette Cooper/David Miliband would be 20 points ahead, something about Corbyn being a grandad.

Get all of them together and you can make complicity in torture and/or death disappear from any politician of your choice.
 
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