Thanks for the passive aggressive response
I think the greater point in my post was that we never seem to get a partnership that can stay fit and play a series of games together!Best CB pairing
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Thanks for the passive aggressive response
I think the greater point in my post was that we never seem to get a partnership that can stay fit and play a series of games together!Smalling is the best CB at the club. I don't like that anymore than anybody else but frankly that's how it is.
I think we are very bad at the back and some of that is Jose's fault. He appears to be unhappy that he wasn't given money to buy central defenders in the last window but he has already spent a lot of money buying Bailly and Lindelöf who don't seem that great and he doesn't seem to rate either of them. Jones has always made too many mistakes and is not good enough to play for United. I think Smalling is better and I also think that Jose was starting to get performances out of Rojo and that he might be worth giving more games to play when fit. Jose said when he joined United that he wanted to sign specialist players for specialist positions which included Bailly at centre half and Mikhytaryan out wide, well one has gone and the other doesn't play much.
Centre half is obviously a major concern but where are the wide players that United have always played as well? where is the Gordon Hill, Stevie Coppell, Andrei Kanchelskis, Lee Sharpe, Ryan Giggs or George Best? and where is the flair.
Centre half is obviously a major concern but where are the wide players that United have always played as well? where is the Gordon Hill, Stevie Coppell, Andrei Kanchelskis, Lee Sharpe, Ryan Giggs or George Best? and where is the flair.
Name the last time Smalling made a shocking mistake, honestly the last one I can think of is him staying on the pitch against Leicester when it was clear he was hurt and not mobile, then Maguire scored the equalizer on Smalling. That was december last year...
(i would not call losing a 1 v 1 vs lucas moura a shocking mistake, centre backs aren't expected to win every 1 v 1)
Its a myth that he is mistake prone. He is the least mistake prone centre back at the club by far.
Lindelof looks way too casual on the ball, did you see that shocker of a pass he made against Watford that gave them a great counter attack? He does it once every game, I repeat, I prefer people who can actually defend to people who allegedly are "ball playing" but aren't even that good at that anyway. How about Smalling + Rojo. Rojo is the only one of our 5 centre backs who prefers to be on the left side as the left centre back (he is left footed), Rojo is probably our best centre back at playing it out from the back, Rojo is rash and a bit mad but if he can get a run of games and get back to his 2016/17 form (he was immense for 6-9 months) then he is a very good defender and I certainly think Rojo + Smalling could be a very balanced partnership. Rojo is fit to return to the first team against young boys so we'll see very soon in the coming weeks if Rojo is a part of Jose's plans. The thing with Rojo is can he stay fit and not get injured again, he is only just returning from injury now of course.
As mad as i get at smalling and have been in denial, he is our most reliable defender. He has major issues with playing the ball out of the back, but with shaw coming back into form, and possibly dalot chipping in at right back, his on the ball issues will be less as there will be better ball players around him. We can run with him, but he needs a partner that can comfortably play on the left, as he cannot. Bailly has lost some of my faith as he is never fit, Jones is Jones, Rojo has never been consistent or fit and Lindelof seems lightweight. We are in need of a centre back.
I would play Smalling on the right as he is the best CB and its his best side so we should make sure he is at his best every game, then i would stick Bailly on the left actually and just tell him to calm down. Maybe that will happen naturally for him even in a "new" position? Smalling should be able to make up for whatever weirdness Bailly comes up with, and Bailly is just better than Lindelof, so yeah.
Bailly should be our best centre back, but whenever hes not fully fit he looks absolutely horrible, and he has fitness issues almost as bad as phil jones, in addition, his heading of the ball is awkward and leaves us without a centre back that can attack threats from corners.
Thanks for the passive aggressive response
My comment was passive-aggressive only if you don't know what passive-agressive actually is. It was a direct disagreement with your statement, the very antithesis of passive-aggressive behaviour. Maybe do some light reading on what passive-aggressive behaviour is before using the phrase?
As regards to the greater point of partnerships not having time to settle due to injuries, there's some element of truth in that but it only tells half the story. More often we've seen partnerships changed because of shambolic defensive performances rather than injuries. For example the Bailly-Lindelof partnership from the first 2 games of the season got torn up because they defended terribly as a pair, not because one of them got injured. There's a limit to how much time you can give a pair when they struggle to get the even basics right and it's costing you points.
The problem with over-using the injuries excuse is that it (intentionally or not) conceals part of the greater problem which is that some defenders are simply not good enough. For example, Rojo has been here for 4 years now and bar a short 6-game stint he has never looked like a proper, reliable defender. Even when he was fit. So to actually blame it all on injuries is a fallacy.
If, touch wood, Lindelof suffers an injury in the next 2-3 months would it be a case of an injury stalling his development and the forming of a solid partnership with Smalling? Or do we acknowledge that even when he's fit he's not quite good enough becasue he's timid, weak, panicky and not particularly good in the air or the ground? Would all those personal deficiencies be resolved if he plays in a stable partenrship with Smalling. I somehow don't think so.
Smalling and Bailly is our best CB pairing. They should start in Switzerland on midweek and we must build on that.
Same
I actually like Fellaini as a third CB & considering that seems like a tactic of ours - Blind would have been great for that too for teams that play on the ground even though he hardly ever got beaten for headers either.
What does the phrase "should be our best CB" really mean? And why should he be?
Fit or not, he's shown some real weaknesses to his game. Poor aerial ability as you mentioned is one. A hot-headeness that leads him to be dragged out of position and to lunge into reckless and unecessary tackles is another. Those are traits, a bit like Smalling's awkwardness with the ball for example, that have nothing to do with fitness.
He's got ways to go before he's a reliable CB in my eyes. Never mind the best at the club.
Bailly should be given the chance to play alongside Smalling... so far this season he's only got to play alongside Lindelof (and we know what a shit show that is) where as Lindelof has been given the chance to play alongside Smalling (and has hardly looked great) with Fellaini there to look after him too.
So yeah, would like to see Bailly and Smalling get a run... see how it goes.
So yeah, would like to see Bailly and Smalling get a run... see how it goes.
Personally, not convinced in the slightest.
Firstly, both of them prefer to play on the right side of the CB pairing. People seem to frget that. Smalling in particular performs much better there than at LCB, based on previous evidence. And he is far more important to our defence than Bailly is, I would argue. Can Bailly play at LCB? Maybe, how well though I'm not sure.
And while I prefer Bailly to Lindelof as a player, I think Lindelof is a better partner for Smalling the same way Blind was. And as a partnership they will perform better for the club. For all his limitations Lindelof is a very predictable defender and one that rarely over-extends or gets dragged around the pitch. Whereas Bailly's unpredictability makes it difficult for another CB to work with. He will often get dragged into a RB or CM position lunging into tackles and leaving his partner exposed at the back.
Yet Jones and Smalling wouldn't get a game at Chelsea, City, Liverpool, let alone Real Madrid or Bayern. We are too vulnerable at the back to be challenging for the league or Champions League; we just don't look capable of clean sheets. It's unacceptable we don't have an outstanding centre back at the club and don't really know what our best partnership is. It won't be easy to get an upgrade in January, either.
I'm not very convinced myself either, but I'm even less convinced by Lindelof to be sincere.
You are right, Smalling should continue as our RCB, Bailly must and can adapt to the LCB if he wants to play. I think Smalling will benefit by playing alongside a better player and defender in Bailly first and foremost. Forget predictable, he is a very weak defender, let's be direct. He doesn't get dragged around the pitch because he rarely commits and holds back. When he does commit into a duel, he usually is loosing it. I agree on Bailly completely, but I think in a situation where we don't have much choice, we must try and refine the talent he has, since I think it's things that can be learned alongside a vocal partner and a compact team.
Not sure about the pairing, but at the moment it has to be Smalling plus one, most likely Lindelof or Bailly.
You're not saying anything I disagree with. Yes, he is weak, he loses a lot of duels, he's conservative, timid and rarely commits. I ain't convinced about him long term either.
In some ways you are basically describing Blind as a CB as well. He had all those physical deficiencies and a height disadvantage to boot. But both of them seem to be a good foil for Smalling by simply holding the shape and the line not being overly aggressive. I think a CB being conservative, predictable and reliable is defending 101. The very basics and also the essence of being a decent CB.
Can Bailly get his head together and make that LCB spot his own. Remains to be see, but he'll need to tone down his game a lot. Needs to be way more composed and calm then he currently is and aware of his and his partners position.
Partly yeah, but Blind was better on the ball, and most importantly smarter and calmer player, but I loved Blind, so maybe I'm biased.
Most of those things you describe as something Lindelof brings out of Smalling is over blown in my opinion. Our two last games at least where we won are not down to Lindelof being less aggressive, predictable or reliable, thus getting the best out of Smalling. It's down to playing Fellaini alongside Matic in front of the CBs. It's obvious how Fellaini played his part and the dirty work for a CB who lacks a lot in the defending part. Put Bailly in there and we add much more character in that back line. Yeah he will make mistakes, but we must hope he learns from it, because in the meantime, he makes us a better team.
Smalling + (Lindelof or Bailly).
Haven't seen Bailly play at LCB, but Smalling is so much better on the right.
Haven't seen Bailly play at LCB, but Smalling is so much better on the right.
Tbf you are right, those are weaknesses. The issue we have is not necessarily Smalling either, if he were better on the ball we would not really have any issues with him, the more outstanding problem is that we sometimes play with back fours that none of the participants are good on the ball, which makes smalling's deficiencies stand out more. This is the most important thing we need to sort out. I feel we have gone some way in doing that by reinviting shaw into the team, and signing Dalot as a long term solution which increases the full back quality on the ball. We need a centre back that really specializes in two important things, aerial ability and calmness on the ball. It would also be nice if that defender did not require smalling or a fellaini figure to hold his hand defensively. The truth is Maguire would have fit that role, and from watching other games in the league, it seems like a few other centre backs could do that as well. Somehow we have managed to mess these defensive signings up, but we need to keep trying to fix it, regardless of the cost, as defensive organization is one of the major ways we can be better than man city and allow us to challenge other european giants.
Tyring to merge the two convos into one, as they both seem more about Lindelof than Bailly and more fitting here.
I think Fellaini and Matic, particularly the former, are helping Lindelof a lot in one of his main areas of weakness which is man marking from set pieces. He seems to get out-muscled or out-jumped a lot by physical strikers or opposition CBs, so Fellaini picking them up works out better for us.
I don't think however that he has any more protection than usual when it's from open play or counter attacks. I don't find Fellaini for example very astute at tracking runners from deep or smelling danger and dropping into CB to help out. He's very good at set pieces (on both ends) and he has decent distribution, which allows him to split the CBs and bring the ball out when we start from the back. Those are the main things he brings on the table.
For example, I don't think replacing Matic with either Fred or Pereira in that set-up will particuralarly expose Lindelof. I don't feel he needs both of them to help him out with man-marking, nor do I think Matic is as good in the air as he should be for his height (same as Pogba and Lukaku tbh). Which is important because I think this team can play a more attack-minded midfield by swapping Matic for one of the aforementioned midfielders without sacrificing defensive solidity. Which is mainly the argument leveled against Lindelof at the moment, that he needs two CDMs to help him out with his duties. Because needing one CDM to help out is quite normal, when you play 2 CBs these days. Many teams play with 3 CBs even.
I guess the proof will be in the pudding. Matic will be out so we'll get to see a midfield of Pogba-Fred/Pereira-Fellaini very soon and we'll see how Lindelof will cope with that reduced protection.
That said, I see us getting rid of both Rojo and Jones in the future and signing a different LCB to pair with Smalling. With Bailly and Lindelof playing second fiddle to them in the RCB and LCB positions respectively.
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The consensus seems to be it should be Smalling plus one of the others, which is a worry in itself, as I don't rate Smalling and never have. He has no business being at a club the size of Manchester United. We have the highest income in the world, yet Chris Smalling is rated our best CB? That just isn't right. He isn't terrible, but, like Jones, he's an average EPL defender. He's a West Ham, Newcastle or Southampton level player, not a Manchester United player. Smalling can't pass a ball ten yards, doesn't stay tight to the man he's marking and is too easily brushed off the ball for a big guy. Put that all together and we need better. The centre back position is a huge problem for us just now.
Good post.
Though something tells me that Matic absence will lead to Pogba being back at LCM and Lingard dropping back. For me a three-man midfield with Pogba, Fellaini and Lingard would be very interesting to be honest.
Off topic ltb, I know. Sorry.
There are really only two things I don't like about Smalling's play.
One is the way he needs to set-up his entire body for every pass he makes, however short. Just something about the way he squares himself up, focuses on getting the inside of his right foot connected to the ball etc., where you just get the feeling that he actually has to concentrate on the basic theory behind short game passing before playing the pass.
The second is his annoying habit of (despite going through the process set out above) generally playing the ball at or (most times) slightly behind his team mate (who is normally a central defender or a full back) thus breaking the stride of the receiving player, and slowing down the pace of our build-up at the same time.
The first point doesn't do much harm, it just looks weird in a professional footballer. The second I wish he would work on. His defensive capabilities are sound though. He also has goals in him. It has become clear for me that he should be our first choice central defender.
One is the way he needs to set-up his entire body for every pass he makes, however short. Just something about the way he squares himself up, focuses on getting the inside of his right foot connected to the ball etc., where you just get the feeling that he actually has to concentrate on the basic theory behind short game passing before playing the pass.
The second is his annoying habit of (despite going through the process set out above) generally playing the ball at or (most times) slightly behind his team mate (who is normally a central defender or a full back) thus breaking the stride of the receiving player, and slowing down the pace of our build-up at the same time.
The first point doesn't do much harm, it just looks weird in a professional footballer. The second I wish he would work on. His defensive capabilities are sound though. He also has goals in him. It has become clear for me that he should be our first choice central defender.
Well I clearly remember him messing up in the 2016 FA Cup Final...He got a stupid red card in a Manchester Derby a few years ago...He lost Vincent Kompany twice from set pieces to concede 2 huge goals,I think one of the goals helped City win the league...So he is prone to the odd mistake in the big games,but hes generally pretty solid and he deserves to start week in,week out this season...
Man marking is not the main problem with Lindelof, he is not good enough in the air, and not strong enough in duels, even when he can keep it up with the attacker, he losses most duels. That's not only on set pieces, attacker playing with their backs on him cause him many problems, which disrupts our entire back line.
I think you are wrong on both of the bold parts in my opinion. Fellaini might not be as astute but is very disciplined, and you can see in games how close he whenever Lindelof has to deal with an attacker. Also his defensive contribution frees up Matic who drifts more, but still has another MF to help him out.
Replacing Matic with Fred or Pereira will expose our defense, especially our weakest link in Lindelof.
I guess we'll see when it inevitably happens due to Matic's ban. It's ok to interpret things differently after all.
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Wow. I guess you never noticed that opposing teams want Rojo with the ball and then they lay off him about 10 meters and cut off his option to the other CB. Next, he tries a pass over 25 meters and it's turned over. Rojo is pretty bad with the ball unless he has an obvious pass.
Smalling would get into the Chelsea and maybe Liverpool team (Liverpool may prefer to stick with Gomez because of his age and potential, although Smalling is currently better). He's a better defender than most of City's as well, although obviously Pep's style trumps everything so he wouldn't make it there.
It's something I've noticed with your posts - you significantly underrate Smalling. Sure he has his weaknesses, but overall he's comfortably better than you seem to feel. I mean, saying he's a West Ham/Newcastle/Southampton level defender? Other than City and Spurs he'd have a decent chance of getting into any other team in the league, a certainty in every team outside the top five. There's a reason Arsenal tried to buy him three times that we know of (once when he was young and then another two times from us). Leicester is the best team outside of the big six and he's easily better than any defender they have other than maybe Maguire himself.
Not at City based on their style but Chelsea and Liverpool? You do realize that Chelsea are playing Rudiger and Luiz as a pair? Only a matter of time before that hurts them defensively. Luiz is a wonderful footballer but a pretty poor defender while Rudiger is still unproven in this league and purely as a defender I don't think he is as good as Smalling. Arsenal have shite in Mustafi and Sokratis, Liverpool are trying to bring on Gomez while VVD is one of the better defenders in the league, not as if the competition is massive with the Spurs pair rather overrated. If any of our defenders had started the season as badly as Maguire has for Leicester the fans would be screaming for him to be dropped.
Can't understand posters saying Bailly can't play alongside Smalling and that Lindelöf can. Where's the logic in that? What makes Lindelöf more suitable to play on the left compared with Bailly. None of them are natural left sided players. So in my mind Bailly is the obvious choice. No reason as to why he wouldn't be able to adjust to playing on the left. He'd slot in fine there alongside Smalling. Can't understand the stick he gets on the caf. He just cannot have become shit overnight!
Just giving an honest opinion of the guy's ability, having watched him for several years now. I think he's a mediocrity and not Manchester United class; same with Jones. Bailly and Lindelof haven't been at the club long enough to make a definitive assessment, but I'm not greatly confident with those two either. Smalling is another Jonny Evans/John O'Shea: he's okay, average, but would he really look out of place at Southampton or West Ham? Did Evans like too good for West Brom? Not really. Was O'Shea head and shoulders above everyone else at Sunderland. No. I would replace him and Jones ASAP and give fair warning to Lindelof and Bailly that their training tops are also on shaky pegs. It isn't good enough, in my humble opinion, if we are saying Chris Smalling is the best centre back at the club. That shouldn't happen at a club our size. It may seem cruel, but a regular Manchester United starter should be top quality, and Smalling and Jones just aren't, IMHO.
The fact Smalling struggles to play the most simple of passes is a concern, but okay, not every centre back is Beckenbauer. What's more worrying is his habit of failing to mark his opponent properly and his tendency to be outmuscled in tackles. He can have games where he looks the real deal, but he also has some nightmare performances. He isn't the solid, reliable centre back every good team needs.
Our centre backs are a real concern, and the attempt to rectify it during the summer window was a shambles. We need big changes in that position.
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In my mind Lindelof deserves a run. Bailly has been worse this season, living off the reputation of some good form in his debut season.
Bailly looked the real deal when he first arrived. Then he got an injury and hasn't been the same since. It's a strange one; if he can re-find that early form it would be a massive boost.
There a lot of myths about Smalling on this forum.
Dunno how reliable, but it seems everyone is just ignoring this post...
It has to be noted that defending is a team effort. Because one of the defenders is weak on the air doesn't mean we will concede much.
Add in the last two games and Lindelof/Smalling increases to 88.9%. But apparently, they'd be exposed if Fellaini doesn't play the holding role. Why?
It has to be noted that defending is a team effort. Because one of the defenders is weak on the air doesn't mean we will concede much.
But it isn't myth; it's simply a description of what I've seen with my own eyes. On Saturday, for example, he failed several times to follow the run of the man he was marking, which put is in trouble. This shouldn't be news to anyone who watches the team regularly. He's an okay defender but nothing more, IMO, and is very fortunate to be getting a game at as club of our stature.
Axel Tuanzebe and Timothy Fosu-Mensah
I think you are just the one trying to find faults that are not really there. It's ok, you don't like Smalling but anyone that actually claim to watch the team regularly whilst watching 'a lot, I mean a lot' of other games that doesn't involve Smalling will know that he is one of the best defenders in the league - arguably top 5.
Try watching the other defenders in the league - regularly and the same way you watch Smalling; try to find some faults and you'd observe they are no better than him.