Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
villain said:
Be clear on what you're saying here - 'under pressure to do what is right', what are you implying is 'right' here? Millions of people did vote Leave, and not all of them were ignorant or misled. And many of them feel as though it is the right decision for them.

I see society for what it is because i've been disappointed by decisions that have been put place and voted for in the past - so I agree - honesty is definitely lacking but it has been for a large amount of time now. Since the rise of UKIP this has been a thought in the back of my head.

I'm not suggesting you can't protest, hell I was even at the protest and spoke to a lot of people there - plus I love a good protest myself.
I just don't think protesting for a second vote is the right way to go about it, plus isn't the deadline to leave in about 4 months?
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We can see the Governments response to the march today, which is to totally ignore it. What would be right would be to base a decision on the facts whilst the decision everyone has made has been made on lies and with one campaign funding from vested interests which we cannot trust. Putting them under pressure to do what's right is to not harm this country or its people by those who might wish it harm or intend to profit from it or gain promotion.

What percentage were not ignorant? Which of them were not misled? Do you have statistics that will outweigh the numbers who trusted lies?

To my mind I wonder why you even care to debate in this thread if you truly are that apathetic over honesty in Public Life. Do you really believe that the people of this country given the different levels of education in these matters not deserve total honesty from their politicians?
 
The whole democracy should be protected schtick is ridiculous anyway (and I expect some to disagree me here but whatever). It should be protected but the cost should obviously be considered. I think we can live with Brexit but say the country voted to invade France based on poor information. Once that had been made clear would y'all be saying "Well, the people have spoken. Gotta do what we gotta do." ... I doubt it ...
 
afrocentricity said:
The whole democracy should be protected schtick is ridiculous anyway (and I expect some to disagree me here but whatever). It should be protected but the cost should obviously be considered. I think we can live with Brexit but say the country voted to invade France based on poor information. Once that had been made clear would y'all be saying "Well, the people have spoken. Gotta do what we gotta do." ... I doubt it ...
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:lol:

That's literally not in anyway the same.
 
Sweet Square said:
:lol:

That's literally not in anyway the same.
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Did you see me say it was? Just criticising the sentiment. You actually just agreed with me as I'm assuming you find it hilarious because the statement isn't some unbreakable law.
 
I think Brexit is nothing more but a giant add for the fact that referendums about complex issues are a bad idea. Holding a referendum on Brexit is probably about as prudent as deciding it in a game of rock paper scissors lizard spock spiderman batman wizard glock.
 
afrocentricity said:
The whole democracy should be protected schtick is ridiculous anyway (and I expect some to disagree me here but whatever). It should be protected but the cost should obviously be considered. I think we can live with Brexit but say the country voted to invade France based on poor information. Once that had been made clear would y'all be saying "Well, the people have spoken. Gotta do what we gotta do." ... I doubt it ...
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Never mind a hypothetical invasion of France. How about when Iraq was invaded based on poor information? Whether it's the electorate or the government making decisions based on false assumptions, it seems insane to think that decisions can't be changed once these false assumptions are uncovered.
 
afrocentricity said:
Yes. The situation is fluid, not static. It was fecking dumb in the first place. Now? You know where I'm going with this...
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Then that leads us down a slippery slope - Brexit was dumb, I agree wholeheartedly, don't take my posts as anything but agreement of that.

Pushing for a second referendum on this opens up the possibility for a second referendum on anything else we decide to vote on in the future, if the outcome isn't favourable.
Also, there's no guarantee that the vote would go the way we would want it to.

oates said:
We can see the Governments response to the march today, which is to totally ignore it. What would be right would be to base a decision on the facts whilst the decision everyone has made has been made on lies and with one campaign funding from vested interests which we cannot trust. Putting them under pressure to do what's right is to not harm this country or its people by those who might wish it harm or intend to profit from it or gain promotion.

What percentage were not ignorant? Which of them were not misled? Do you have statistics that will outweigh the numbers who trusted lies?

To my mind I wonder why you even care to debate in this thread if you truly are that apathetic over honesty in Public Life. Do you really believe that the people of this country given the different levels of education in these matters not deserve total honesty from their politicians?
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But again - you're assuming that everyone made their decision based on lies.
I didn't base my vote on any lies, I doubt you did either, and I doubt many people on this forum did.

Do you have statistics on who made their decision based on lies?
I'm not saying nobody did, but i'm certainly not saying everyone did - and i'm not implying that those who voted differently to me, did so because they were misled either because that comes across quite condescending.
Ultimately any vote will have a portion of people who were ill-advised, or didn't know/understand all arguments for or against the vote in question - not all Remain voters did so because they understood all the facts, likewise with the Leave voters, it happens.

I'm not apathetic over public life at all, and i'm actively involved in my community because of issues like this - in fact for the last 2 years i've been part of a collective who put pressure on my local MP over Brexit - to the point where he resigned from Parliament, and is now actively campaigning for the referendum of a second vote.
Apathetic is not the word to describe to me at all, but being so involved with politics i'm often confronted with the people on the other side of the debate who hold a different perspective to me. I don't understand why they think the way that they do, but I won't dismiss it either.

But we can agree to disagree :)
 
afrocentricity said:
Did you see me say it was? Just criticising the sentiment. You actually just agreed with me as I'm assuming you find it hilarious because the statement isn't some unbreakable law.
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Its a completely stupid example to use. There's a ok-ish argument to use about having a second referendum but the problem is that at the moment it's too harmful for any major political party to put forward.

A large part of the country(Well England & Wales)don't believe the whole ''they lied to us, we fell for the big red bus'' shtick. Having a second referendum because in the last one some people lied is never going to work.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Never mind a hypothetical invasion of France. How about when Iraq was invaded based on poor information? Whether it's the electorate or the government making decisions based on false assumptions, it seems insane to think that decisions can't be changed once these false assumptions are uncovered.
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I was going for ridiculous, but fair point.

villain said:
Pushing for a second referendum on this opens up the possibility for a second referendum on anything else we decide to vote on in the future, if the outcome isn't favourable.
Also, there's no guarantee that the vote would go the way we would want it to.
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Is that a bad thing?
Sweet Square said:
Its a completely stupid example to use. There's a ok-ish argument to use about having a second referendum but the problem is that at the moment it's too harmful for any major political party to put forward.

A large part of the country(Well England & Wales)don't believe the whole ''they lied to us, we fell for the big red bus'' shtick. Having a second referendum because in the last one some people is never going to work.
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I think you're missing the point mate :lol:

See Pogues follow up post if that sits better for you.
 
Honestly the one thing dumber than holding a first referendum is holding a second one. It was a referendum not a math test. You can't say: ah, I'm sorry guys, but you got it wrong the first time, try again!
 
villain said:
We live in democracy for a reason. Brexit may have been voted on a bed of lies and ignorance, but it was still voted democratically.
& unless there's evidence of vote tampering or other illicit measures - it is what it is, unfortunately.



The picture was clearly a joke tbf.



This is what democracy is unfortunately.

Don't get it confused, I don't like anything about Brexit - but I think it would be disastrous if we try to re-do elections just because the outcome isn't ideal.



What happens if it's voted for again? Do we do it a third time?

Do you see how easy this can set a dangerous precedent for what democracy truly means?
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The referendum should never have happened then as we already had a referendum where the people voted overwhelmingly to be in the EU.
 
afrocentricity said:
Is that a bad thing?
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If Remain won the vote, and Farage and his cronies were marching for a second referendum, would you be in here saying 'well, is that a bad thing?'

If you want to go down the slope of being able to vote on issues again, then you have to be consistent and accept that the other side will be able to do the same thing - and it's not always going to work in your favour.

I'm much more in favour of improving the way in which we receive information about politics, that wont stop ignorant people from voting but it will make the information more accessible for those who do want to be informed.
 
villain said:
But again - you're assuming that everyone made their decision based on lies.
I didn't base my vote on any lies, I doubt you did either, and I doubt many people on this forum did.

Do you have statistics on who made their decision based on lies?
I'm not saying nobody did, but i'm certainly not saying everyone did - and i'm not implying that those who voted differently to me, did so because they were misled either because that comes across quite condescending.
Ultimately any vote will have a portion of people who were ill-advised, or didn't know/understand all arguments for or against the vote in question - not all Remain voters did so because they understood all the facts, likewise with the Leave voters, it happens.

I'm not apathetic over public life at all, and i'm actively involved in my community because of issues like this - in fact for the last 2 years i've been part of a collective who put pressure on my local MP over Brexit - to the point where he resigned from Parliament, and is now actively campaigning for the referendum of a second vote.
Apathetic is not the word to describe to me at all, but being so involved with politics i'm often confronted with the people on the other side of the debate who hold a different perspective to me. I don't understand why they think the way that they do, but I won't dismiss it either.

But we can agree to disagree :)
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:) we certainly will agree Villain, no two people see exactly the same argument.

The fact you are asking me my own question means we have no idea what percentage voted on lies or their education but enough people have been quoted, interviewed and told me and probably yourself personally that they either don't want the EU deciding for them that we must buy square bananas anymore, that they want a return to the British Empire, that they want the NHS to get what we pay French farmers, fishermen, steelworkers or car industry workers, that they don't want Polish people to take their jobs . - that there will be no shortage of jobs in the UK once we leave the EU and on and on to make my mind up that it is a fair proportion of Vote Leavers to have drunk the Kool Aid, that we don't need YouGov to tell us what the split is :D

My own business Partner voted Leave and we haven't even discussed why because we'd fall out for the first time, but I've a fair idea and he's educated too but his father is a working class Brummie who told me that we have to stop EU workers taking up our jobs. Our business has relied on qualified people from all over Europe since we started over 15 years ago and now we are struggling to find staff, we can't do our work without them. That's how ridiculous people's beliefs are over what they've been told.

Glad to hear you are not really apathetic Villain. We need to get involved at our local levels, campaign against politicians with bad records or get them de-selected.
 
Fully Fledged said:
The referendum should never have happened then as we already had a referendum where the people voted overwhelmingly to be in the EU.
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People voted in 2015 a tory party who promised to hold a new referendum into government, if people really wanted a ''people's vote'' after the 2016 referendum then they should have voted Lib Dem in last election.

There are ways of getting a new referendum but making it appear out of thin air isn't one of them.
 
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Fully Fledged said:
The referendum should never have happened then as we already had a referendum where the people voted overwhelmingly to be in the EU.
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Again, blame Big Davey.
I didn't vote for the clown, but a large amount of people did and he put it in his manifesto.

oates said:
:) we certainly will agree Villain, no two people see exactly the same argument.

The fact you are asking me my own question means we have no idea what percentage voted on lies or their education but enough people have been quoted, interviewed and told me and probably yourself personally that they either don't want the EU deciding for them that we must buy square bananas anymore, that they want a return to the British Empire, that they want the NHS to get what we pay French farmers, fishermen, steelworkers or car industry workers, that they don't want Polish people to take their jobs . - that there will be no shortage of jobs in the UK once we leave the EU and on and on to make my mind up that it is a fair proportion of Vote Leavers to have drunk the Kool Aid, that we don't need YouGov to tell us what the split is :D

My own business Partner voted Leave and we haven't even discussed why because we'd fall out for the first time, but I've a fair idea and he's educated too but his father is a working class Brummie who told me that we have to stop EU workers taking up our jobs. Our business has relied on qualified people from all over Europe since we started over 15 years ago and now we are struggling to find staff, we can't do our work without them. That's how ridiculous people's beliefs are over what they've been told.

Glad to hear you are not really apathetic Villain. We need to get involved at our local levels, campaign against politicians with bad records or get them de-selected.
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:) Always a pleasure debating with you Oates!

I have no idea about percentages of those who voted based on their education, I think I remember it was mostly a generational split. I do believe xenophobia played a big part in it also, and honestly I don't think most people really cared about the NHS or they didnt vote, because of the NHS.
But that's just me assuming things, a lot of brexiters i've met don't actually fit that mould - young, living in London, working in business/finance/law/engineering/tech - come from immigrant families, use private healthcare and are educated - which completely blew my mind, but it happens more and more frequently when I have these conversations.
As a result i'm trying not to make any more assumptions about the profile of a brexiter looks like, considering we havent met all of them.

My mum is an african immigrant who believes there's too many immigrants in the UK which is why she voted, I mean it literally makes no sense! I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Leave voters who would say the same about Remain voters too.

We can definitely agree on the last line - more people need to get involved at local levels, and keep up with it - politics remains the way it is because not enough people put pressure on our elected officials. Change is entirely possible if we put the work in.
 
Adisa said:
We need to start doing tests before politicians can go for office.
In the real world, there is absolutely no job that doesn't require a vetting process to see if someone is mentally capable, why should it be any different for politicians?
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I feel the same way but democracy is all about, for the people, of the people and by the people. Refusing anybody the right to contest an election for any reason is undemocratic.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Honestly the one thing dumber than holding a first referendum is holding a second one. It was a referendum not a math test. You can't say: ah, I'm sorry guys, but you got it wrong the first time, try again!
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If the first one was dumb then how do you propose righting the dumb?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
When can they hold another one?
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The vote was brexit. So brexit it is. If after some time brexit wasn't a good idea after all, you could hold on to repeal it I suppose.

Personally don't think you should hold a binding referendum at all.

@oates
If you decide to hold a referendum you should stick by the decision, if not, what is the point of holding one at all? It's basically a big middlefinger to the people who voted in it.

You can right the wrong by abolishing referendums in general. Then, if in the next elections a cabinet opposes to brexit is voted in, they can repeal it.

I think brexit is a terrible idea, but if you're laws state a referendum is binding, you have to stick by it's decision. Like it or not. Though some research shows that in the UK referendums are not actually binding?
 
KirkDuyt said:
Honestly the one thing dumber than holding a first referendum is holding a second one. It was a referendum not a math test. You can't say: ah, I'm sorry guys, but you got it wrong the first time, try again!
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Why bother holding elections then? Might as well hold one and keep the same leader until they die and then hold a new one after their death.

This decision is far too important for it to be left based on the decision of one referendum especially when the consequences can be cataclysmic from an economic perspective. I think a second referendum is inevitable as even if they did a no deal brexit within a few years they would have to try and overturn it as it would be clear it has been a disaster.
 
Xenophobes were a factor. Old feckers hankering for the days of Empire. Some who didn't like the fact that the EU council are not elected. Others didn't like the prospect of a United States of Europe. If you add all these together there would not have been enough to win the referendum.

What we had is 40 years of decline in large swathes of the north east and other parts of the UK. These people have been woefully let down by successive governments of all colours. They were going to vote against any recommendation that any government made - especially if it was Tory.

That for me is what swung things.
 
KirkDuyt said:
The vote was brexit. So brexit it is. If after some time brexit wasn't a good idea after all, you could hold on to repeal it I suppose.

Personally don't think you should hold a binding referendum at all.

@oates
If you decide to hold a referendum you should stick by the decision, if not, what is the point of holding one at all? It's basically a big middlefinger to the people who voted in it.

You can right the wrong by abolishing referendums in general. Then, if in the next elections a cabinet opposes to brexit is voted in, they can repeal it.

I think brexit is a terrible idea, but if you're laws state a referendum is binding, you have to stick by it's decision. Like it or not. Though some research shows that in the UK referendums are not actually binding?
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The referendum is not binding, it's advisory.
I agree it shouldn't have gone to a referendum but is that it forever? I voted in the 1975 referendum, couldn't imagine all these years later a bunch of fools would reverse it.
 
KirkDuyt said:
@oates
If you decide to hold a referendum you should stick by the decision, if not, what is the point of holding one at all? It's basically a big middlefinger to the people who voted in it.

You can right the wrong by abolishing referendums in general. Then, if in the next elections a cabinet opposes to brexit is voted in, they can repeal it.

I think brexit is a terrible idea, but if you're laws state a referendum is binding, you have to stick by it's decision. Like it or not. Though some research shows that in the UK referendums are not actually binding?
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I think the damage will be near irreparable, so costly in businesses failed and in redundancies as to be impossible to return to the same position . If you are going to say have another 'referendum' by voting in a government that will repeal it why not prevent the self inflicted harm now?
 
Honest John said:
Xenophobes were a factor. Old feckers hankering for the days of Empire. Some who didn't like the fact that the EU council are not elected. Others didn't like the prospect of a United States of Europe. If you add all these together there would not have been enough to win the referendum.

What we had is 40 years of decline in large swathes of the north east and other parts of the UK. These people have been woefully let down by successive governments of all colours. They were going to vote against any recommendation that any government made - especially if it was Tory.

That for me is what swung things.
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This is so frustrating - The Eu council are elected, they're the heads of government. Not only did they not vote against Tories they voted for Tories so they could have a referendum.
 
Raees said:
Why bother holding elections then? Might as well hold one and keep the same leader until they die and then hold a new one after their death.

This decision is far too important for it to be left based on the decision of one referendum especially when the consequences can be cataclysmic from an economic perspective. I think a second referendum is inevitable as even if they did a no deal brexit within a few years they would have to try and overturn it as it would be clear it has been a disaster.
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That's not what I'm arguing. A better analogy would be to hold elections and afterwards tell people, please vote again, but this time, don't vote for that party, because that's obviously the wrong choice.

If the referendum is not binding just have the cabinet say; we shouldn't have held a referendum, our bad, we're not doing brexit, it's a dumb idea and we're not holding any more referendums about subject matter this complex. The other option; a second referendum, is much more risky. What if the outcome is Brexit again? Then you really have to go through with it and as Oates says the damage will be near irreparable. I'm not saying you should never have a vote on the same thing twice, but not in a timespan this short.

Asking the people to vote on Brexit is like asking a crowd of newborn babies to vote for the correct answer on so you want to be a millionaire. They have no fecking clue and I wouldn't put it past the human race to make the "wrong" choice again.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
This is so frustrating - The Eu council are elected, they're the heads of government. Not only did they not vote against Tories they voted for Tories so they could have a referendum.
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That and the actual result are not necessarily linked. Not all Tory voters voted leave. The fact that a referendum was in the manifesto may not have won votes from other parties. Many Tories would have remained loyal regardless of whether a vote on the EU was included. And don't forget the demise of the Lib Dems in 2015, the continued need to reduce the deficit. Those things played a greater factor in Cameron's overall majority than the promise of a referendum IMO.
 
villain said:
If Remain won the vote, and Farage and his cronies were marching for a second referendum, would you be in here saying 'well, is that a bad thing?'

If you want to go down the slope of being able to vote on issues again, then you have to be consistent and accept that the other side will be able to do the same thing - and it's not always going to work in your favour.

I'm much more in favour of improving the way in which we receive information about politics, that wont stop ignorant people from voting but it will make the information more accessible for those who do want to be informed.
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I'm all for the reforms that you want but how about we deal with this pressing issue first?
KirkDuyt said:
What if the outcome is Brexit again?
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Then we Brexit. Is really not that complicated. If the people vote to Brexit by clear majority based on what we do know now, all cards on the table... Then we Brexit. With a first mandate and direction and everyone shuts the feck up and gets on with it.

Worst thing is I don't even think we'll get a 2nd ref because I don't even think it's the people that are driving this. I think it's an earner for some and a power play by others. We as a country are getting taken along for the ride... Imho. Feel free to disagree.

I sure as hell aren't gonna tell anyone not to march or try to affect change tho. I admire anyone that wants to get up and actually do something. I didn't march but I would have had I known earlier and not been busy.
 
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The board of Manchester United have decided to let the supporters decide the future of the club because they are afraid of being voted out at the next board meeting.

The supporters no longer want foreign players playing for the club and are also fed up with being dictated to by the Premier League.
52% voted to Leave the Premier League and join a lower division with the promise of the most vocal supporters Morris Bonson, Jacob Cream Crackers, Nigel 'the grinner" Garage and Ron Jedward that the club would win the Champions League, the World Cup and the Intergalactic Superstars Cup.
Jacob Cream Crackers later admitted that it could take 50 years to achieve.

The Chief Executive tried after two years of negotiations to join the Championship but negotiations failed and the club joined the North Western Counties District League. Because the club could no longer attract sponsors or investors most of the players left, they could not attract or afford new players and gradually fell into financial ruin.

The 48% who voted to stay in the PL knew that it would be a disastrous move but no-one would listen. What have these idiots done to our club, they cried.
 
To my mind it all depends on whether circumstances have changed enough for a second vote to be justified.

For example, it isn't that long since Scotland voted against independence. However, I think think you could definitely argue that Brexit would change things enough for calls for another referendum on the issue to be justified. After all, the risk of leaving the EU was a key argument against independence, Scotland subsequently voted to stay in the EU but now it is facing having to leave it regardless. That materially changes the terms of the original vote, I think.

Has Brexit reached that point yet? Probably not. Maybe it will have by the time a final deal (or no deal) is on the table though.
 
villain said:
So if Remain won, and Farage was angling for a second referendum - you would agree and suggest we should vote again?
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If remain won by 2% and it turned out that we were fed untruths and things started to unfold differently than we were told they would?

Depending on the actual details that came to pass I might even have been looking to change my vote myself. This is the crazy thing, you or others aren't even entertaining the thought that given the passing of time and changing of facts and situations some leave voters might want to actually change their votes. Regardless of what they say in public or polls...

It's a dynamic situation and things change I don't even know why this is such a controversial position?

It's not about Farage, Boris, Cameron the NHS, UKIP, the EU, etc etc... My position is based on the tiny margin and the lies and misinformation.

KirkDuyt said:
And that's why I'm opposed to holding a referendum in the first place :)
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Well it's done isn't it so what do you suggest mate? Because the way I see it these are the only people I see putting up any fight. Props to them... My kinda people.
 
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sullydnl said:
To my mind it all depends on whether circumstances have changed enough for a second vote to be justified.

For example, it isn't that long since Scotland voted against independence. However, I think think you could definitely argue that Brexit would change things enough for calls for another referendum on the issue to be justified. After all, the risk of leaving the EU was a key argument against independence, Scotland subsequently voted to stay in the EU but now it is facing having to leave it regardless. That materially changes the terms of the original vote, I think.

Has Brexit reached that point yet? Probably not. Maybe it will have by the time a final deal (or no deal) is on the table though.
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This is a good point. If the circumstances change considerably, hold another vote. The only change here is that the brexiteers mislead the people, but the people are mislead in all elections. It's simply what politicians do.

@afrocentricity have the cabinet say; sorry we fecked up, we're not doing brexit, period.
 
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Honest John said:
That and the actual result are not necessarily linked. Not all Tory voters voted leave. The fact that a referendum was in the manifesto may not have won votes from other parties. Many Tories would have remained loyal regardless of whether a vote on the EU was included. And don't forget the demise of the Lib Dems in 2015, the continued need to reduce the deficit. Those things played a greater factor in Cameron's overall majority than the promise of a referendum IMO.
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Agree but there was significant movement. Voters also left UKIP to get a referendum knowing that UKIP would never be in government any more than the LibDems would.
If I were still living in the UK, although a traditional Tory voter I couldn't vote for them now, I couldn't vote for Labour because of Corbyn and anyone else is a wasted vote. So glad I don't live there now.
 
So can someone bring me up to speed because tbh I hardly been following last 6 months give or take, what is Labour position in all this. And Corbyn? I've noticed he is no longer Jesus incarnate so what's his position? Give me a brief summary or a link or whatever...
 
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