I don't know if it will be in the next 10 years, mainly because I'm not sure if member states are willing to fund it and reduce their current military.
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I don't know if it will be in the next 10 years, mainly because I'm not sure if member states are willing to fund it and reduce their current military.
There's no hard border, yet, because the UK is staying in the EU, in all but name, ie the SM and CU. When the UK leaves the CU and SM, hello hard border. You don't understand, no.
It doesn't end freedom of movement either, May lied.
And that is ok. But when there are concessions to be made in order to solve the issue, those concessions should be made by the nation who has decided to leave the union rather than forced upon nations who haven't. The EU has a duty to its remaining members first and foremost and cannot allow Ireland to be negatively impacted by Brexit just to make the process a bit more comfortable for the UK.
In very simple and non sensational terms:
- Britain decided to invade Ireland.
- Britain decided to give Irish land to British citizens.
- Britain decided to retain 6 counties when Ireland was partitioned.
- Britain decided to enter the European Union.
- Britain decided to sign the Good Friday Agreement.
- Britain decided to leave Europe.
May has negotiated an agreement which will most likely not be passed. It's an agreement you yourself have criticised because it does not give you the sovereignty you so desire. Northern Ireland and the UK will still be subject to a whole range of EU laws and regulations and freedom of movement will remain entirely unchanged under this deal.
It also puts Northern Ireland on a different playing field to the rest of the UK which has been explicitly rejected by the DUP and unionists in NI. It has clear and obvious implications for peace up there.
Feckin hell, I'm reconnected to the internet!
Just as shit's finally getting interesting. Will May survive? If not do we go for elections? So much riding on the next few days.
Just as shit's finally getting interesting. Will May survive? If not do we go for elections? So much riding on the next few days.
Haha, jesus.
1. The EU is as much a coorperation as the US is, albeit the US is much further in it's evolution than the EU is.
2. Europol doesn't have exective power..yet.
3. Yet again, the trend is towards an EU military. This feels like we're rehashing old arguments, people were told in 80s that there was no way EEC treaties would further bind countries, lo and behold a few years later Maastricht happened and Europe had it's own currency.
4. The ECJ is the final appellate courts in all EU countries - on the proviso that the cases are on 'European law and not national law'. But since EU directives are covering ever broader subjects, they are de facto the final courts. Google the famous Factortame case for further insights.
5. The European Parliament has legislative powers. They simply can't propose laws.
As someone said above, the EU and the UK simply have to accept that Ireland needs a bespoke deal because of the unique circumstances there.
All I said was that the option of having an open border is there, given people negotiate in good faith. The EU still think they can dangle that to get concessions, and they've been really successful thanks to Theresa May.
The option of having an open border only exists under the sort of terms and conditions which would surely impact your sovereignty?
The unique circumstances mean that the UK, well NI, cannot leave the CU and SM- it's not a question of concessions, the EU aren't forcing anything. That's what will happen, there's no debate or negotiation. If NI leaves the CU & SM , it's border time.
It's difficult to see how May can survive, especially if her deal is voted down in the house of commons. However, she is a turd that won't flush, like Corbyn, and he manages to hang on.
With the far greater percentage of westminster being pro remain, it's likely that her government will prop her up against a vote of no confidence, but the damage that they know she's doing to conservative election hopes may be a factor. Then there's the fact that if she does step down, it's unlikely that a pro leaver will succeed her, which pretty much keeps things as they are, or may even be more EU driven.
Time has pretty much run out, May has caved in, and effectively the leave vote is being overturned by Westminster.
I disagree.
Dude, all the customs union is, is an agreement to have a free trade area but the union sets external tariffs. The UK already has places with bespoke arrangements regarding the EU - the Isle of Man/Guernsey. The EU has plenty of other agreements with European nations that didn't want to join the full Customs Union - EFTA etc.
I have no idea where this idea that you either have to be in all the way or nothing came from, but it doesn't correspond with reality.
You are rushing too far ahead. If they get the 48 letters in the next couple of days, we'll have a vote of no-confidence before this deal even reaches parliament. The implications of that could be huge. If May is ousted the deal could be going with her and we're back to square one. Probably heading for elections too as there's no unity in this Tory party.
You're ignoring the border here.
Where do you live out of interest? Assuming somewhere in Ireland (North or South) given you seem so clued up on things here.
I don’t disagree with the general tone of your post but conflating what a handful of Norman warlords (who basically enslaved the native English
population) did 800 years ago with the 2016 referendum is stretching it a bit.
EFTA/EEA countries are not in the CU at all. It's not only the CU, it's the SM as well, these arguments have been through a thousand times on here. You are getting confused. But if countries are not in the CU there has to be checks. There also has to be legal jurisdiction. I haven't got the energy to repeat it yet again. Last time it was explained was about 15/20 pages back.
The UK excluding NI can leave the CU and SM - cliff edge. The agreement May negotiated covers not just NI but the whole of the UK and the UK can't leave the SM/CU until the NI problem is resolved - that's what the backstop is for. The UK leaves the EU next March but only in name. That's why it will be rejected.
I can't see her being toppled by a vote of no confidence. I'd be surprised if the votes don't reach the needed 48, but I think she would win any leadership challenge. The house of commons voting down her deal should see her resign, but it's possible she could then go to the country with a second referendum vote. If she did resign, I think she would be replaced by a pro remainer.
I'm not ignoring it. I just think it's clearly open for discussion. I live in England.
That's what I said. My point was this: on the basis of the current situation, yes, there would be a border. But the EU has a very long history of negotiating unique deals with other European nations that wanted to have a modified relationship that only applied to them. Why is this all of a sudden not possible now in relation to the UK?
Ive been out playing footy since 7pm, what have i missed?
I didn't intend to sensationalise the matter but just because something happened a long time ago doesn't mean it has no bearing on the present. Britains who weren't Norman warlords had ample opportunity to leave Ireland be throughout that 800 years but made other decisions which have directly influenced the situation as it exists today. Britain cannot simply choose to ignore that past because the reality is a bit inconvenient in the face of their latest desire.
Because these countries either have borders and checks or are part of the EU.
But when the whole of the UK leaves the EU the UK will be under WTO rules not EU rules and WTO rules require a border. If the UK want to be like Norway then they're back in the SM but with border checks.
Oooh, they had my manor on the news 
Newsnight thinks Gove says no, and who can blame him, so who will May find to be Brexit secretary now? Either a complete unknown or a loon I presume.
There has never really been a brexit secretary. May and her advisers are doing the negotiating. Davis's plans were never even read, and Raab was a puppet.
Two have resigned and at least one has refused to do it, so I tend to agree.
She should pick Ken Clarke... Just to annoy the erg
Though it seems pretty pointless having one now
I agree Britain has responsibilities towards Ireland due to history and I do not want to see any border re-introduced (I am pro-Remain). But I would emphasise that there was very limited democracy in Britain until 1830 and no universal suffrage until after WWI. The idea that most British citizens had much say in the matter is a simplistic ahistorical viewpoint.
The UK only falls into WTO rules if there is no other deal agreed. Personally I'd favour modifying a modified EFTA deal. And I don't think that's a particularly wild idea.
The problem is that the EU has always assumed that every European country wants to join the EU and has negotiated every deal with them with that in mind. Britain is moving in the opposite direction and needs a unique deal.
This might sound like a daft question, but why can't they just say no borders in Ireland, or border inspections at all port terminals leaving Ireland as a whole?
No doubt this has probably been discussed or dismissed for legitimate reasons, but I don't see why they need a physical border between the two.
No doubt this has probably been discussed or dismissed for legitimate reasons, but I don't see why they need a physical border between the two.
There will no doubt be a FTA agreed at some stage, but it will still mean a border. To not have a border the UK has to be in the CU/SM - but we're going round in circles.There's a border between Norway and Sweden and a border between Switzerland-France/Germany/Italy. If the UK want to be an EFTA member firstly they have to be accepted and secondly if they are in the SM, the 4 freedoms will apply which sort of defeats the whole purpose of Brexit plus they still have the checks. The best they can hope for is a Canada type deal but it's awful in comparison to what they have now.
One thing is absolutely certain is that the EU will never compromise on the 4 freedoms that could endanger the EU itself.
This is true. I can't speak for every Brexiteer, but personally I'm rather big fan of the four freedoms so wouldn't mind if they got worked into an FTA. I think difference in opinion we have is whether a frictionless border can be negotiated or not. I believe an agreement can be reached without defaulting to the CU/SM, you don't.
What's the point of having a FTA enshrining the four freedoms?! Why don't we just remain and keep our veto and rebate
What's the point of having a FTA enshrining the four freedoms?! Why don't we just remain and keep our veto and rebate
Because I believe in economic openness but not political union. I've said this to you several times in this thread already.
The Star has its priorities straight:
Why do people care about the European Army? We and the whole of Europe really are already heavily reliant on a "foreign" alliance for our security called NATO.
It's remarkable that people continue to distort the NI issue. Simple fact is that if we don't opt for a hard border we're allowing freedom of movement between the UK and an EU country - there's no reason for the EU to give us an exemption to this. If not we implement a border. Any 'transitional' agreement is essentially permanent but aims to placate hardline Brexiteers who clearly don't buy it.
Serious question, why don't we just cancel Brexit?
The EU's economic agreements inherently rely on a political union for the most part. Again, there's no reason for the EU to renege on this for us exclusively.
Eh...do feck off.