Wisconsin teens participate in Nazi salute

Carolina Red said:
And you just proved that you’re part of the problem.

You sound just like the enabling parents of kids I have to deal with all of the time because their kid is failing, yet somehow it is “my fault”.

Their potential careers are potentially in jeopardy because of their actions.
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Who decides that their actions are bad enough to be so severely punished? They might be 17-18, but they're still kids, and this is a prom photo. It's teenage boys being stupid cnuts, and I'm arguing is that the repercussions are extreme. Slap on the wrist, ok sure, do that, but I think this has nevertheless been blown up more than was needed. However, as I said one pro is that it makes good discussion which is good for progression.

I feel like I've given the entirely wrong impression in my post, I'm not some nazi tribute enabling dude, I just think this kind of stuff has to be dealt with with more care than it seems to have been. And if I am indeed wrong, I like to think I'm open minded enough to change, if you think I'm so broken in my view then educate me. Posts like this do not help:

simmee said:
Hilarious satire mate, well played.
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langster said:
What a load of bollocks. The people marching in Charlottesville say hi.
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Cloud7 said:
I’m hoping that that post is satire, going by the “historical parody similar to what I used to do when I was younger”, though you really never can tell these days.
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simmee said:
I'm fairly sure he's just not very bright, unfortunately.
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simme, if I'm not very bright, at least explain why I'm wrong, all you're doing is isolating me as some kind of moron.

2cents said:
America has witnessed Nazis marching in the streets very recently, along with an increase in far-right violence.
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Halftrack said:
Have you been living under a fecking rock or something?

And in what fecking world is reacting negatively to a group of 17-18 year old boys throwing a fecking nazi salute a bad thing? They're not innocent kids who know nothing, they're Americans, in an America that has recently seen a surge in far right views and violence. It's a very worrying sign that people that age would willingly be photographed doing that, in a photo that was never meant to be private. If you think this is a nonissue, your brain is broken, simple as that.

I'm incredibly fecking sick of seeing cnuts try and excuse away shitty attitudes and try to make it out as if PC or SJWs or whatever are the real problems.
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Posts like this do kind of help as you've highlighted my ignorance on the topic, I shouldn't have commented without some research I guess. I didn't know about any of this, or well I've heard bits about far right protests but I was unsure on the prevelance of it all. So please excuse my ignorance. But then it begs the question, are tensions high enough to warrant this level of response?
 
Twigg said:
Who decides that their actions are bad enough to be so severely punished? They might be 17-18, but they're still kids, and this is a prom photo. It's teenage boys being stupid cnuts, and I'm arguing is that the repercussions are extreme. Slap on the wrist, ok sure, do that, but I think this has nevertheless been blown up more than was needed. However, as I said one pro is that it makes good discussion which is good for progression.

I feel like I've given the entirely wrong impression in my post, I'm not some nazi tribute enabling dude, I just think this kind of stuff has to be dealt with with more care than it seems to have been. And if I am indeed wrong, I like to think I'm open minded enough to change, if you think I'm so broken in my view then educate me. Posts like this do not help:
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https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

Go through that map and look at how many icons there are for Neo-Nazi, Neo-Volkish, Skinhead, KKK, and White Nationalists.

Any 17-18 year old has been taught several times throughout their schooling what that salute means, what it led to, and what bad is still currently causes. If they suffer repricussions because of that photo, they weren’t innocent lambs who didn’t know what they were doing.
 
Twigg said:
Posts like this do kind of help as you've highlighted my ignorance on the topic, I shouldn't have commented without some research I guess. I didn't know about any of this, or well I've heard bits about far right protests but I was unsure on the prevelance of it all. So please excuse my ignorance. But then it begs the question, are tensions high enough to warrant this level of response?
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Tensions are certainly very high - for example a few weeks back some far-right goon killed a bunch of people in a synagogue. So I'm sure you can understand why at this particular moment in time idiots like these kids are inevitably going to receive such a backlash.
 
Carolina Red said:
https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

Go through that map and look at how many icons there are for Neo-Nazi, Neo-Volkish, Skinhead, KKK, and White Nationalists.

Any 17-18 year old has been taught several times throughout their schooling what that salute means, what it led to, and what bad is still currently causes. If they suffer repricussions because of that photo, they weren’t innocent lambs who didn’t know what they were doing.
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They were innocent lambs in that they weren't aware of the kind of response their actions were about to get, which as I've said is what I'd consider a blown out of proportion one, because at the end of the day they're raging hormonal idiots (as most boys that age are) out to prove themselves to one another, and raging homonal idiots are not always rational, and a nazi salute was probably some representasiton this. You surely must have an opinion on appropriate repercussions as opposed to just thinking, "well, whatever happens now happens, their fault, not innocent lambs" because at what point do you draw the line on acceptable punishment?

2cents said:
Tensions are certainly very high - for example a few weeks back some far-right goon killed a bunch of people in a synagogue. So I'm sure you can understand why at this particular moment in time idiots like these kids are inevitably going to receive such a backlash.
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Yeah, that makes sense then.
 
Twigg said:
They were innocent lambs in that they weren't aware of the kind of response their actions were about to get, which as I've said is what I'd consider a blown out of proportion one, because at the end of the day they're raging hormonal idiots (as most boys that age are) out to prove themselves to one another, and raging homonal idiots are not always rational, and a nazi salute was probably some representasiton this. You surely must have an opinion on appropriate repercussions as opposed to just thinking, "well, whatever happens now happens, their fault, not innocent lambs" because at what point do you draw the line on acceptable punishment?
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Innocent lambs because they didn’t know the repricussions? My ass.

They are literally of the age where they just finished US History class and learned for the last time in their school careers about the horrors of the Nazis and their Holocaust.

As a history teacher, if my students were to do this, I would do my utmost to have them suspended so that it appeared on their permanent record.

But that’s just me.
 
@Twigg In two posts you:

A) Talked about a picture of muslims with an ISIS flag being worse in the current social climate, and then subsequently said that you are completely unaware of the rise of Neo Nazis and other dangerous far right groups being very active in the current social climate.

B) Called a fecking Nazi salute, a symbol that represented death and oppression for countless numbers of people, and is literally illegal in some places, a historical parody and a joke. I suppose the places that it's illegal are just blowing things out of proportion as well.

C) Saying that they're detached from WW2. There is no one in this world who is detached from WW2. There are people alive today who still fought in it FFS. More pertinently, was it not remembrance day in America just a week or so ago? You know, the day that those soldiers, not too dissimilar in age from the people posting this picture, went off to war to fight the same people that these teens are doing the pose of.

That's without even mentioning that you and others you knew did stuff like this when you were younger. Most of the world manages to get by their teen years without posting pictures of Nazi salutes, but I guess "18 year olds will be 18 year olds" right?

All those things considered, you will forgive me for believing that your post was satire as I find it hard to believe that anyone could fit so many ridiculous views in just two posts unless they were being satirical.
 
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People seem to be continually ignoring the reports which suggests racism and discrimination has been endemic at this school, and that it isn't a one off. I can understand the argument insofar as people do sometimes do stupid shite and they shouldn't necessarily be castigated for life due to that, but it certainly comes across as if this was more than a tone-deaf prank done for a laugh.
 
Cloud7 said:
@Twigg In two posts you:

A) Talked about a picture of muslims with an ISIS flag being worse in the current social climate, and then subsequently said that you are completely unaware of the rise of Neo Nazis and other dangerous far right groups being very active in the current social climate.

B) Called a fecking Nazi salute, a symbol that represented death and oppression for countless numbers of people, and is literally illegal in some places, a historical parody and a joke. I suppose the places that it's illegal are just blowing things out of proportion as well.

C) Saying that they're detached from WW2. There is no one in this world who is detached from WW2. There are people alive today who still fought in it FFS. More pertinently, was it not remembrance day in America just a week or so ago? You know, the day that those soldiers, not too dissimilar in age from the people posting this picture, went off to war to fight the same people that these teens are doing the pose of.

That's without even mentioning that you and others you knew did stuff like this when you were younger. Most of the world manages to get by their teen years without posting pictures of Nazi salutes, but I guess "18 year olds will be 18 year olds" right?

All those things considered, you will forgive me for believing that your post was satire as I find it hard to believe that anyone could fit so many stupid views in just two posts unless they were being satirical.
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A) A picture of muslims with an ISIS flag in the USA would without doubt have a tremendously larger backlash than some white privilaged kids doing a nazi salute. That surely is not even up for debate? And yes, I accept my mistake re my ignorance on the far right climate in the USA.

B) It was a historical parody and a joke, what else could it be? I didn't say it was a very good joke, but when it comes to assuming intention, that's the most rational reasoning. It's count dankula thing again. So with that in mind, we're punishing boys heavily for a joke (again, if you think it wasn't a joke, please explain what you think it instead was. A homage? Are they all white supremecists? A part of a cult perhaps?).

C) You either misunderstand or I am misrepresenting what I mean when I say that they are detached from World War II. Of course there are still rippling effects of the war going on today, and for sure modern culture has been heavily impacted by it. But that is not what I mean with detachment. Often for young people in school, history is history, it's another period entirely and for some might even be equal to fantasy. In this way, there is a certain level of detachment from the past. I speak not for me but in an attempt to see it from the perspective of these raging hormonal idiots.

Well, we didn't exactly do this sort of stuff when we were younger, but we did clown around and do stupid shit, just that some stupid shit is worse than others. It's what young people do, especially if your peer group is dominated by a moronic imbecile. When I was in Year 6, I drew a picture of bin laden bombing something at easter, because I wanted attention and thought it would be funny, and yep my classmates all laughed. God forbid anyone do that nowadays. Although there's a difference in being 10 and doing that and being 17/18 and making a nazi salute, so that's a bad example.

But at the end of the day it comes down to intention, and what do you think their intention was? You seem more inclined to attack me than attack my views.
 
Twigg said:
B) It was a historical parody and a joke, what else could it be? I didn't say it was a very good joke, but when it comes to assuming intention, that's the most rational reasoning. It's count dankula thing again. So with that in mind, we're punishing boys heavily for a joke (again, if you think it wasn't a joke, please explain what you think it instead was. A homage? Are they all white supremecists? A part of a cult perhaps?).
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there is a history of racism and at the school, and a history of staff turning a blind eye to the racism, telling kids who report it to "toughen up", it's clearly not a joke for the people on the receiving end of these racists antics.
 
Silva said:
there is a history of racism and at the school, and a history of staff turning a blind eye to the racism, telling kids who report it to "toughen up", it's clearly not a joke for the people on the receiving end of these racists antics.
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Okay, makes sense then that there would be such repercussions. I'll try and not fall into the trap of posting ignorantly again.
 
The reason this went viral over the other thousands of problematic photos taken by kids on a daily basis is because the kids on the receiving end of this groups racism had enough and reported it via a journalist. It's not a random twitter storm that spontaneously went viral.
 
Twigg said:
Who decides that their actions are bad enough to be so severely punished?
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The college admissions officers and scholarship teams that they applied to. As I already pointed out ad nauseum university admissions come with a Code of Conduct. This is a pretty clear violation of every Code of Conduct at Universities I have seen. Therefore it is perfectly just and appropriate if college admissions or scholarships reject them.

This has all been covered already in the thread btw
 
Twigg said:
You either misunderstand or I am misrepresenting what I mean when I say that they are detached from World War II. Of course there are still rippling effects of the war going on today, and for sure modern culture has been heavily impacted by it. But that is not what I mean with detachment. Often for young people in school, history is history, it's another period entirely and for some might even be equal to fantasy. In this way, there is a certain level of detachment from the past. I speak not for me but in an attempt to see it from the perspective of these raging hormonal idiots.
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If they're detached enough from the world around them to think that this kind of thing is acceptable, then that is no one's fault but their own. Also 18 year olds on the cusp of going to university aren't raging hormonal idiots. At 18 you're at the tail end of puberty and your teens. A lot of who you will be as an adult is formed by that age, so you're seeing that from a flawed perspective.

Twigg said:
Well, we didn't exactly do this sort of stuff when we were younger, but we did clown around and do stupid shit, just that some stupid shit is worse than others. It's what young people do, especially if your peer group is dominated by a moronic imbecile. When I was in Year 6, I drew a picture of bin laden bombing something at easter, because I wanted attention and thought it would be funny, and yep my classmates all laughed. God forbid anyone do that nowadays. Although there's a difference in being 10 and doing that and being 17/18 and making a nazi salute, so that's a bad example.
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I enjoy dark humour. You mentioned 9/11, I laugh at the George Bush 9/11 memes all the time, which is just the tip of the iceberg of other things that I laugh at. Things that should not be joked about. What I would never do is share an image of me mocking, say the Armenian Genocide, on social media, try to act as if that's acceptable, and then think that I should just be let off the hook about it. If I did something that stupid, and no university was willing to take me after that, they would be well within their rights to do so, as no one in their right mind should think that doing something like that is acceptable.

Twigg said:
But at the end of the day it comes down to intention, and what do you think their intention was? You seem more inclined to attack me than attack my views.
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In isolation, their intention was to try to be edgy, and mock something that "PC gone mad, SJW's and Liberals" will get upset about. By itself, that is stupid enough to warrant some kind of punishment. Think about if one of these people became a doctor. Would a Jewish patient be comfortable with one of them being their doctor, knowing that they were happily throwing up Nazi signs, thinking it was cool?

However, when viewed through the lens of the other tweets that have come out, outlining a history of racism and bullying at that school, it spells out something far more sinister than just "a bad joke" as you think it is.
 
I really don't get this whole debate we can't ruin their lives they are only kids racists or not .

Ruin their lives they are ignorant lil racist scumbags they deserve their lives ruined .

I will reserve my sympathy for innocent people who suffer at the hands of ignorance not these lil twats
 
Twigg said:
Who decides that their actions are bad enough to be so severely punished? They might be 17-18, but they're still kids, and this is a prom photo. It's teenage boys being stupid cnuts, and I'm arguing is that the repercussions are extreme. Slap on the wrist, ok sure, do that, but I think this has nevertheless been blown up more than was needed. However, as I said one pro is that it makes good discussion which is good for progression.

I feel like I've given the entirely wrong impression in my post, I'm not some nazi tribute enabling dude, I just think this kind of stuff has to be dealt with with more care than it seems to have been. And if I am indeed wrong, I like to think I'm open minded enough to change, if you think I'm so broken in my view then educate me. Posts like this do not help:









simme, if I'm not very bright, at least explain why I'm wrong, all you're doing is isolating me as some kind of moron.




Posts like this do kind of help as you've highlighted my ignorance on the topic, I shouldn't have commented without some research I guess. I didn't know about any of this, or well I've heard bits about far right protests but I was unsure on the prevelance of it all. So please excuse my ignorance. But then it begs the question, are tensions high enough to warrant this level of response?
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I agree with you. I always hated racist pricks, and I have no personal simpathy for these dudes, but, as you say, they're kids, acting on some group non-sense before a massive party.

Perfect opportunity for them to learn it's wrong and improve themselves. Wanting more than that just doesn't help anyone. As for the previous accusations of prejudice and intolerance, I reckon it's more the school staff (who are adults) who should be put to punishment for not acting upon them.
 
lsd said:
I really don't get this whole debate we can't ruin their lives they are only kids racists or not .

Ruin their lives they are ignorant lil racist scumbags they deserve their lives ruined .

I will reserve my sympathy for innocent people who suffer at the hands of ignorance not these lil twats
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Do you honestly believe that all these kids are nazi sympathisers?
 
Carolina Red said:
Please don’t be about to make something akin to a “just fitting in”/“just following orders” argument.
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No, what about a rational 'kid doing something stupid' argument?

Not saying they should get off scott-free of course but 'ruining their lives'? I mean, really?
 
Vato said:
No, what about a rational 'kid doing something stupid' argument?

Not saying they should get off scott-free of course but 'ruining their lives'? I mean, really?
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You are also putting blame for repricussions of this on someone other than the kids. Whatever happens to them is their fault.

Is personal responsibility a myth now?

Edit
To add to that: we suspend and expel kids for stacking at school functions. How is this any different?
 
Bury Red said:
There's good and bad people on both sides? You've gotta be worried when you find yourself paraphrasing Trump ;)
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What? No, I'm saying some of those kids that did the Nazi salute aren't racists but were rather cut up in the moment doing what everyone else was doing. Group thinking is a thing. For that reason it would be harsh to execute all those kids online even though there are some racist. Someone needs to do something about this though but it's not for the internet to decide.
 
Carolina Red said:
You are also putting blame for repricussions of this on someone other than the kids. Whatever happens to them is their fault.

Is personal responsibility a myth now?

Edit
To add to that: we suspend and expel kids for stacking at school functions. How is this any different?
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Ok, so just answer me this; Are you of the opinion that every kid on that pic's life should be ruined?
 
Vato said:
Ok, so just answer me this; Are you of the opinion that every kid on that pic's life should be ruined?
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1) Not every kid is participating.

2) Of those that are... I’m of the opinion that they should be at the very least suspended, and that it put on their permanent record, which will be accessed when they apply to college. I am also of the opinion that any college they’ve applied to apply the code of conduct standards to that image when deciding on whether or not to accept them.
 
lsd said:
I really don't get this whole debate we can't ruin their lives they are only kids racists or not .

Ruin their lives they are ignorant lil racist scumbags they deserve their lives ruined .

I will reserve my sympathy for innocent people who suffer at the hands of ignorance not these lil twats
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Which is more likely though?

1. Every single one of the kids doing the Nazi salute in that picture is a practising fascist who wholeheartedly subscribes to the Nazi ideology
2. There's a few kids trying to be edgy and some got swept along for the ride

They're not doing it because they're real Nazis, they're doing it for shock humour. It's like the guy who turns up for Halloween dressed as a terrorist. It's a bad joke. So don't laugh, and move on. I think anyone campaigning for their lives to be ruined needs some perspective. Like they've never been a dick at any point.
 
Carolina Red said:
1) Not every kid is participating.

2) Of those that are... I’m of the opinion that they should be at the very least suspended, and that it put on their permanent record, which will be accessed when they apply to college. I am also of the opinion that any college they’ve applied to apply the code of conduct standards to that image when deciding on whether or not to accept them.
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Fair enough. I think the ones which they know that sympathise with extreme right ideology, should receive way harsher treatment than the ones who just got caught up in a one off. Because I'm willing to bet there's at least a few kids on that photo who went along with it in a moment of madness and repented it even before the pic went viral. I just don't believe that many kids can have extreme right sympathies. Or maybe the world is even worse off than I even thought, who knows..
 
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2 man midfield said:
Which is more likely though?

1. Every single one of the kids doing the Nazi salute in that picture is a practising fascist who wholeheartedly subscribes to the Nazi ideology
2. There's a few kids trying to be edgy and some got swept along for the ride

They're not doing it because they're real Nazis, they're doing it for shock humour. It's like the guy who turns up for Halloween dressed as a terrorist. It's a bad joke. So don't laugh, and move on. I think anyone campaigning for their lives to be ruined needs some perspective. Like they've never been a dick at any point.
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Are people purposefully ignoring the context behind this? It's been mentioned multiple times already that the school has a problem with racism and stuff like this. Some of them probably do believe it.
 
Twigg said:
Posts like this do kind of help as you've highlighted my ignorance on the topic, I shouldn't have commented without some research I guess. I didn't know about any of this, or well I've heard bits about far right protests but I was unsure on the prevelance of it all. So please excuse my ignorance. But then it begs the question, are tensions high enough to warrant this level of response?
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Admitting ignorance is a good quality.
2 man midfield said:
Which is more likely though?

1. Every single one of the kids doing the Nazi salute in that picture is a practising fascist who wholeheartedly subscribes to the Nazi ideology
2. There's a few kids trying to be edgy and some got swept along for the ride

They're not doing it because they're real Nazis, they're doing it for shock humour. It's like the guy who turns up for Halloween dressed as a terrorist. It's a bad joke. So don't laugh, and move on. I think anyone campaigning for their lives to be ruined needs some perspective. Like they've never been a dick at any point.
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The school has a massive problem with racism among students, and a faculty that tolerates it. They might not all be literal fascists, but there's a good chance a lot of them have some unsavory views. When the ironic roman salute comes from racists, it isn't really ironic anymore.
 
I've never understood the attraction right wing white people have towards nazis.

1. They killed millions of your forefathers and waged war against them. Do these people not have any dignity? Cheerleading those who tried to destroy them?

2. Where do they get this victim mentality from? White people run the world. Just because you have a shit life doesn't mean the white race is down trodden on - they're very much right at the top of the food chain.

The only thing that makes sense is that this isn't about a platform for thier "whiteness" but a platform for them to hate on other races.
 
You're not supposed to do Nazi salutes, it's distasteful and insulting.

Wtf is so hard to fathom here? There's no place for this behaviour whether it be a joke or serious, especially in this day in age.

Those saying it was clearly a joke: well, it sets a horrible precedent. It trivialises the action of the salute and what it stands for. It teaches them that it's okay to keep doing this. It's fecking not.

Jesus.
 
Cheesy said:
Are people purposefully ignoring the context behind this? It's been mentioned multiple times already that the school has a problem with racism and stuff like this. Some of them probably do believe it.
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That’s the thing. Who the feck knows what certain students there believe? I’d rather ignore the attempt at bad humour and actually deal with the confirmed cases of racist abuse. That’s surely the bigger issue here. Actual people have been racially abused, why isn’t the focus on that instead of some idiots trying to be funny by sticking their hands up?

Halftrack said:
Admitting ignorance is a good quality.

The school has a massive problem with racism among students, and a faculty that tolerates it. They might not all be literal fascists, but there's a good chance a lot of them have some unsavory views.When the ironic roman salute comes from racists, it isn't really ironic anymore.
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It’s not a very accurate policy though is it, when deciding whose lives to ruin? He/she may or may not have some of these thoughts so let’s just throw them all on the fire.

We should start with the school. Find out who racially abused who and why the feck nothing got done about it.
 
Aren't people their age tried everyday as adults at US courts? Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't get the they are kids trope at all. By that logic a massive injustice is taking place everyday in the courts where people their age are being tried as adults.
 
Twigg said:
A) A picture of muslims with an ISIS flag in the USA would without doubt have a tremendously larger backlash than some white privilaged kids doing a nazi salute. That surely is not even up for debate? And yes, I accept my mistake re my ignorance on the far right climate in the USA.
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Why do you think that's? And which do you think currently poses a bigger threat to America: right-wing extremism or ISIS? I also find it baffling that you didn't find what the kids did concerning, but you complained about political correctness.
 
Camy89 said:
You're not supposed to do Nazi salutes, it's distasteful and insulting.

Wtf is so hard to fathom here? There's no place for this behaviour whether it be a joke or serious, especially in this day in age.

Those saying it was clearly a joke: well, it sets a horrible precedent. It trivialises the action of the salute and what it stands for. It teaches them that it's okay to keep doing this. It's fecking not.

Jesus.
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I'd love to hear the thoughts of their relatives who fought in the war.
 
Anyone whose first thought upon seeing an entire class of rich white American kids zeig heiling for the lolz like a whoop of fascist Cheshire cats is to denounce the unfairness of PC outrage culture should just buy themselves a crumpled stove pipe hat and grow a spindly moustache and admit they’re a cartoon Victorian villain... it’d save us all a lot of trouble.
 
2 man midfield said:
That’s the thing. Who the feck knows what certain students there believe? I’d rather ignore the attempt at bad humour and actually deal with the confirmed cases of racist abuse. That’s surely the bigger issue here. Actual people have been racially abused, why isn’t the focus on that instead of some idiots trying to be funny by sticking their hands up?
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Ignore it? They took the picture and put it on the Internet. The cat is out of the bag.
 
Mockney said:
Anyone whose first thought upon seeing an entire class of rich white American kids zeig heiling for the lolz like a whoop of fascist Cheshire cats is to denounce the unfairness of PC outrage culture should just buy themselves a crumpled stove pipe hat and grow a spindly moustache and admit they’re a cartoon Victorian villain... it’d save us all a lot of trouble.
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:lol:
 
2 man midfield said:
That’s the thing. Who the feck knows what certain students there believe? I’d rather ignore the attempt at bad humour and actually deal with the confirmed cases of racist abuse. That’s surely the bigger issue here. Actual people have been racially abused, why isn’t the focus on that instead of some idiots trying to be funny by sticking their hands up?
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Surely they both go together? Someone who's got a history of actually being racist might just not be joking when they use a racist symbol. Again, I get that we don't want to ruin the lives of those who did this. But the weird need for people to jump to the defence of the people acting like Nazis in this case, when there's evidence of said people being racist is...bizarre. To say the least. There's a balance to be struck, yeah, but these kids aren't unfortunate victims.
 
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