A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

[breakout67]

Pochettino winning trophies now is a bit too much in my opinion due to the squad make-up. Pochettino winning 1 or 2 trophies in the past 5 years however is a much more reasonable ask. I would say that they have treaded water since 16/17, it feels as if that was the 'peak' where they had a good chance in multiple trophies.

Pochettino is definitely the only manager to have experienced embarrassing exits in domestic cups.

Klopp and Guardiola definitely haven't been knocked out by the likes of Wolves or Wigan in recent seasons, nope, no sir.

Just making some fun, I know mate. I grill Klopp all the time for his horrible cup record, Guardiola has a great cup record. I would say that Poch's cup record is underwhelming, these things are set up for upsets but when was the last time Spurs beat a team as a proper underdog?

This is a genuine question, when was the last time you beat a team in the cups that you thought was much better than you? Does he have it in him to shithouse a win in those situations? Managers often get certain types of performances associated with them, what is his signature game?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Pochettino winning trophies now is a bit too much in my opinion due to the squad make-up. Pochettino winning 1 or 2 trophies in the past 5 years however is a much more reasonable ask. I would say that they have treaded water since 16/17, it feels as if that was the 'peak' where they had a good chance in multiple trophies.



Just making some fun, I know mate. I grill Klopp all the time for his horrible cup record, Guardiola has a great cup record. I would say that Poch's cup record is underwhelming, these things are set up for upsets but when was the last time Spurs beat a team as a proper underdog?

This is a genuine question, when was the last time you beat a team in the cups that you thought was much better than you? Does he have it in him to shithouse a win in those situations? Managers often get certain types of performances associated with them, what is his signature game?

Guardiola has only won the league cup while in England hasn't he? Not playing that down, but considering he has insane squad depth at City (their backups would start for most sides) it's hardly exceptional. We've had 3 semi finals and a final under Pochettino in the cup competitions, it's underwhelming in terms of we haven't won a trophy but it's certainly not terrible.

I don't know if it counts, but I guess vs Madrid in the CL groups we were a big underdog? Not knockout games but a cup competition. I actually think those 2 games were Pochettino's best tactically, we were very good in that respect. We were significant underdogs vs Juventus too and I genuinely do think we can be proud of our performances against them, but again not a victory. I don't think we're the kind of team who are going to shithouse our way to a cup victory, just like a Guardiola side won't do that, the difference is Guardiola has a superior team to work with. You want a Simeone or a prime Mourinho for that.

Pochettino's cup record is definitely unexceptional, and nobody would be hailing him as a great manager on that basis. His greatest success has lied in his squad building ability and consistency in the league, that's where he's done (in my opinion) fantastic work. Again, this would come down to whether you want the canny, pragmatic manager who has that eye for a cup run or someone like Pochettino who offers more stability.

 

[antohan]

You are all going around in circles.

The fundamental issue is Pocchettino has been delivering what's been asked of him. He certainly hasn't had the backing other managers have and his remit has been pretty much the same as Wenger's was (which also kicked off with stadium investments amid the rise of other oil funded contenders).

I certainly can't hold it against him when his constraints drive him to field weakened sides in cups and prioritise the league. That's his job description really.

On the other hand, being good at that job doesn't make him United management material. In fact, it may have been going on for too long for him to step up to our level of expectations/demands, much like Wenger was undoubtedly a top manager and gradually slipped in my esteem as he got set in his "Top 4 is all that matters" mentality.

For what it's worth, I love Ole to bits and we've done great but expect him/us to be found wanting sooner or later. But yeah, as far as fit and "getting it" is concerned we know we have that with him and it's quite clearly the biggest risk with Poch.

Five years on and after three tumescent philosophies you can't help but rate that as a very big deal.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not commenting about the amount of money spent for players because of the inflation you're talking about. Poch spent and sold more because the prices were inflated. That's not the point at all.

I'm commenting on the net spend of buying minus selling and it's extremely similar for both. Both has an average net spend of 45-50m, so their budget for reinforcing their team was exactly the same. They both weren't allowed much of money so you can put this budget thing to rest when it comes to comparing both.

If you check the link itself for the prices of Klopp's signings there, you'll find most of them cost little to absolutely nothing, a lot of 3 to 10m signings.

They are couple of years apart. The inflation isn't that big.

Also spending 300m and 150m is not the same - far from it, regardless if the net is about the same.

 

[Amadaeus]

Pochettino vs Fulham
Ole vs Burnley

The players for both team showed fighting spirit for their managers. However, Poch got the victory. Ole made some questionable changes he didn’t have to make, whereas Poch was forced to make changes due to injuries and absences. Pochettino has come out victorious in the battle of comebacks. People now understand the importance of having a solid first eleven and why Poch doesn’t rotate his squad as often. Despite the obvious reason of having poor subsidary players, consistently picking most of the same eleven is a another reason for his good performances in the league. They have great chemistry and understand the way each players want to play.

 

[Revan]

Pochettino vs Fulham
Ole vs Burnley

The players for both team showed fighting spirit for their managers. However, Poch got the victory. Ole made some questionable changes he didn’t have to make, whereas Poch was forced to make changes due to injuries and absences. Pochettino has come out victorious in the battle of comebacks. People now understand the importance of having a solid first eleven and why Poch doesn’t rotate his squad as often. Despite the obvious reason of having poor subsidary players, consistently picking most of the same eleven is a another reason for his good performances in the league. They have great chemistry and understand the way each players want to play.

Why not against Wolves when they lost 1-3 at home?

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Pochettino vs Fulham
Ole vs Burnley

The players for both team showed fighting spirit for their managers. However, Poch got the victory. Ole made some questionable changes he didn’t have to make, whereas Poch was forced to make changes due to injuries and absences. Pochettino has come out victorious in the battle of comebacks. People now understand the importance of having a solid first eleven and why Poch doesn’t rotate his squad as often. Despite the obvious reason of having poor subsidary players, consistently picking most of the same eleven is a another reason for his good performances in the league. They have great chemistry and understand the way each players want to play.

From fans up Jose's arse to Pochettino's

That's a sign that he will fail.

LVG fan club, Jose fan club, Pochettino Fan club.

Ole is the only one that no one supports - but more so the United he envisages

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Why not against Wolves when they lost 1-3 at home?

Wolves are far better than Fulham or Burnley and have taken points off many of the top sides this season.

 

[Jazz]

Still don't want him. He can stay at Spurs. Comes here he will crumble under the pressure.

 

[Revan]

Wolves are far better than Fulham or Burnley and have taken points off many of the top sides this season.

All of these matches are matches that top 6 teams should win.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Pochettino vs Fulham
Ole vs Burnley

The players for both team showed fighting spirit for their managers. However, Poch got the victory. Ole made some questionable changes he didn’t have to make, whereas Poch was forced to make changes due to injuries and absences. Pochettino has come out victorious in the battle of comebacks. People now understand the importance of having a solid first eleven and why Poch doesn’t rotate his squad as often. Despite the obvious reason of having poor subsidary players, consistently picking most of the same eleven is a another reason for his good performances in the league. They have great chemistry and understand the way each players want to play.

Spot on.

Attacking chemistry is so, so vital. When a manager finds out what works and they develop partnerships and understandings, it is totally illogical to change that winning formula. Just like Liverpool with their front 3 will always start if all are fit and ready, the league is too unforgiving to use it to give run outs to the likes of Llorente or Nkoudou. You can't spend the entire season preparing for an injury crisis.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

All of these matches are matches that top 6 teams should win.

Who said they weren't? Not all losses are comparable. A draw at home to Burnley is worse than a loss at home to a Wolves side who are the 'best of the rest' outside of the top six, and have a very good record against the big teams.

Wolves are no mugs, they're miles better than Burnley or Fulham.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

From fans up Jose's arse to Pochettino's

That's a sign that he will fail.

LVG fan club, Jose fan club, Pochettino Fan club.

Ole is the only one that no one supports - but more so the United he envisages

This just isn't remotely true though, is it?

There's loads of people in this very thread saying they prefer Ole. Right now I'd say the general consensus on this site is that he deserves a shot at the job.

 

[Enigma_87]

Who said they weren't? Not all losses are comparable. A draw at home to Burnley is worse than a loss at home to a Wolves side who are the 'best of the rest' outside of the top six, and have a very good record against the big teams.

Wolves are no mugs, they're miles better than Burnley or Fulham.

Not a single loss is better than a draw. Come on mate.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Not a single loss is better than a draw. Come on mate.

So a draw at home to Cardiff wouldn't be worse than a loss at the Etihad? Nah.

Drawing at home to the likes of Burnley are the kind of dropped points which stop you getting top four. Losing to Wolves at home is shit, but not a total shock as they're a good team who consistently have proven they have it in them to bring it to the big sides. We've got quite a few losses in the league but no draws, which is why we're 3rd.

Draw tonight was terrible for United. You had great momentum and it's the side who are 15th in the league at home, should be a 3 point banker.

 

[Dec9003]

@SquishyMcSquish How can you say it's not embarrassing to go out of the FA cup against Palace, but Burnley should be a banker three points at home? They're in practically the same position which is arguably down to Burnleys rough start given they were in the Europa league.
If United miss out on top four it will be down to the terrible results under Jose, not because we dropped a couple of points against Burnley after going on a winning streak equal to our best post Fergie.
You also mentioned teams going out to wolves in a cup as being embarrassing, but it wasn't embarrassing when they beat Tottenham because they're a good side? This is all in the same night.
It just comes across as you trying to make a mountain of a molehill because people have been giving Poch a hard time.

 

[Sky1981]

@SquishyMcSquish How can you say it's not embarrassing to go out of the FA cup against Palace, but Burnley should be a banker three points at home? They're in practically the same position which is arguably down to Burnleys rough start given they were in the Europa league.
If United miss out on top four it will be down to the terrible results under Jose, not because we dropped a couple of points against Burnley after going on a winning streak equal to our best post Fergie.
You also mentioned teams going out to wolves in a cup as being embarrassing, but it wasn't embarrassing when they beat Tottenham because they're a good side? This is all in the same night.
It just comes across as you trying to make a mountain of a molehill because people have been giving Poch a hard time.

But... injury... you know... resources... how can tottenham possibly compete without resources?

 

[Sky1981]

Guardiola has only won the league cup while in England hasn't he? Not playing that down, but considering he has insane squad depth at City (their backups would start for most sides) it's hardly exceptional. We've had 3 semi finals and a final under Pochettino in the cup competitions, it's underwhelming in terms of we haven't won a trophy but it's certainly not terrible.

I don't know if it counts, but I guess vs Madrid in the CL groups we were a big underdog? Not knockout games but a cup competition. I actually think those 2 games were Pochettino's best tactically, we were very good in that respect. We were significant underdogs vs Juventus too and I genuinely do think we can be proud of our performances against them, but again not a victory. I don't think we're the kind of team who are going to shithouse our way to a cup victory, just like a Guardiola side won't do that, the difference is Guardiola has a superior team to work with. You want a Simeone or a prime Mourinho for that.

Pochettino's cup record is definitely unexceptional, and nobody would be hailing him as a great manager on that basis. His greatest success has lied in his squad building ability and consistency in the league, that's where he's done (in my opinion) fantastic work. Again, this would come down to whether you want the canny, pragmatic manager who has that eye for a cup run or someone like Pochettino who offers more stability.

Stability of not winning anything? Versus erratically winning something?

 

[antohan]

Spot on.

Attacking chemistry is so, so vital. When a manager finds out what works and they develop partnerships and understandings, it is totally illogical to change that winning formula. Just like Liverpool with their front 3 will always start if all are fit and ready, the league is too unforgiving to use it to give run outs to the likes of Llorente or Nkoudou. You can't spend the entire season preparing for an injury crisis.

But if you don't chances are you don't win anything. You have to be incredibly lucky to go the entire season without injuries, burnout or dips in form. Great squads win the league, not great first XIs.

So a draw at home to Cardiff wouldn't be worse than a loss at the Etihad? Nah.

Drawing at home to the likes of Burnley are the kind of dropped points which stop you getting top four. Losing to Wolves at home is shit, but not a total shock as they're a good team who consistently have proven they have it in them to bring it to the big sides. We've got quite a few losses in the league but no draws, which is why we're 3rd.

Draw tonight was terrible for United. You had great momentum and it's the side who are 15th in the league at home, should be a 3 point banker.

I would be a bit concerned at the absence of a middle ground TBH.

 

[hellohello]

I can't believe people are using Simeone, Klopp and Jardim etc as a stick to beat Pochettino with... No one is saying he is the best manager ever, so it's a little strange to criticize him for building a team that performed worse in Europe than other teams with different challenges. I was praising Monaco, BVB and Atletico Madrid, and even though they have won league titles that doesn't mean that Poch is crap since he came second once and third twice in a different league.

On top of this he should apparently be able to win with any team regardless of injuries because the best ever manager SAF once won with Rafael in midfield. SAF is the best ever in my view, but I have seen him wimper out of CL groups with better teams than what Poch has, I have also seen him lose cup games against PL sides below him in the table. Some peoples measurement of success for Pochettino seem to be one that even SAF couldn't live up to.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

@SquishyMcSquish How can you say it's not embarrassing to go out of the FA cup against Palace, but Burnley should be a banker three points at home? They're in practically the same position which is arguably down to Burnleys rough start given they were in the Europa league.
If United miss out on top four it will be down to the terrible results under Jose, not because we dropped a couple of points against Burnley after going on a winning streak equal to our best post Fergie.
You also mentioned teams going out to wolves in a cup as being embarrassing, but it wasn't embarrassing when they beat Tottenham because they're a good side? This is all in the same night.
It just comes across as you trying to make a mountain of a molehill because people have been giving Poch a hard time.

I said Wolves was a shit loss, but it's not as shit as Burnley at home. I also said Palace was a bad loss but understandable due to the players we had missing. It's not exactly the same situation.

You've gone on your best winning streak since fergie due in part to a honeymoon effect, which will now be starting to wear off, which is when we'll see how good Ole actually is. He's been riding the wave of being rid of Mourinho and the momentum some kind fixtures at the start gave the team. That and the fact that you clearly actually have a really fecking good team, and getting this side playing good attacking football wouldn't exactly take a managerial genius, Mourinho had you way underperforming.

If we draw at home to Watford today, who are a better side, I guarantee this thread will be packed with people criticising Poch.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Stability of not winning anything? Versus erratically winning something?

Well that would depend.

If you're talking an FA cup or two but a couple of seasons of mid table mediocrity outside of Europe, then I'll take stability. The domestic cups are not as important to a club as competing in Europe, it's not even very close in modern football.

It's a bit of a sad reality for the fans (I obviously still get more excited for a trophy than for when we finish top four) but it is still the reality. Securing CL football is way more important to a club than winning one of the two domestic cups, which are a nice bonus but nothing more. If Emery came in and won a couple of fa/league cups but finished 6th every season, he'd still be getting stick and likely the sack. That said, I still want our manager to take the cups seriously because well, they're trophies and as a club we need them. I think (for the most part) we have taken them seriously and have given it a go, but have just fallen short.

Now, if you're talking stability vs a league or CL title, then I'll take the latter every day of the week. If you offered me a league title now but said we'd follow it with a couple of seasons in mid table I would rip your hand off.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

But if you don't chances are you don't win anything. You have to be incredibly lucky to go the entire season without injuries, burnout or dips in form. Great squads win the league, not great first XIs.



I would be a bit concerned at the absence of a middle ground TBH.

Liverpool will probably win the league this season, how much rotating of that front 3 do you think they'll be doing? Plenty in midfield/defence, but that front 3 will remain pretty much consistent every single game, they'll rest them in the domestic cups but not in the league, aside from the odd occasion. Once you find that winning formula which has chemistry up front you stick with it, you don't mess around. I remember past title winning sides not rotating much either, Chelsea under Conte seemed to have Pedro, Hazard, Costa up top pretty much nearly every league game. Maybe sometimes Willian would come in, but the two stars (costa and hazard) were pretty much permanent fixtures. There are few games we can afford to rest Kane for.

Great squads win the league, sure, but we don't have a great squad to lean on.


Eh, it's not ideal but I'd rather be losing a few and overall picking up more points, that's what a league is all about at the end of the day. It's not perfect and of course we really shouldn't be losing so many games but it's kept us comfortably in third place so I can't really complain too much.

 

[Dec9003]

I said Wolves was a shit loss, but it's not as shit as Burnley at home. I also said Palace was a bad loss but understandable due to the players we had missing. It's not exactly the same situation.

You've gone on your best winning streak since fergie due in part to a honeymoon effect, which will now be starting to wear off, which is when we'll see how good Ole actually is. He's been riding the wave of being rid of Mourinho and the momentum some kind fixtures at the start gave the team. That and the fact that you clearly actually have a really fecking good team, and getting this side playing good attacking football wouldn't exactly take a managerial genius, Mourinho had you way underperforming.

If we draw at home to Watford today, who are a better side, I guarantee this thread will be packed with people criticising Poch.

Bit of a tangent that doesn't really explain how you've gone from wolves being embarrassing to lose to, to being a good side capable of beating top teams within a few hours.
It doesn't take a managerial genius to get United playing attacking football, but it takes an excellent manager to be able to come in and right the wrongs of previous managers at United.
The idea that we've been riding a wave and have had easy fixtures is a myth.
Just one of the teams we've recently beaten (Newcastle) won against city last night who are much better than we are.
Like I said, you made much of nothing over a disappointing draw because people go overboard criticising Poch, all the while being wildly inconsistent with what constitutes a 'bad draw' and an acceptable defeat.
We might not make top four this season, but Ole and his staff are the only reason it's even a possibility at the moment, which given the mess he came into is a success in itself, especially for an interim manager.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Bit of a tangent that doesn't really explain how you've gone from wolves being embarrassing to lose to, to being a good side capable of beating top teams within a few hours.
It doesn't take a managerial genius to get United playing attacking football, but it takes an excellent manager to be able to come in and right the wrongs of previous managers at United.
The idea that we've been riding a wave and have had easy fixtures is a myth.
Just one of the teams we've recently beaten (Newcastle) won against city last night who are much better than we are.
Like I said, you made much of nothing over a disappointing draw because people go overboard criticising Poch, all the while being wildly inconsistent with what constitutes a 'bad draw' and an acceptable defeat.
We might not make top four this season, but Ole and his staff are the only reason it's even a possibility at the moment, which given the mess he came into is a success in itself, especially for an interim manager.

Did I call it embarrassing to go out to Wolves? If I did I misspoke. From what I can see I said that other managers have experienced embarrassing cup exits, and then later said that this season Klopp has gone out to a side considered lesser than his. Liverpool are top of the league by a significant margin after all. That said, Wolves aren't a bad side and going out to a team like them isn't an embarrassment, it's just a bad result. I think the way we lost to them was properly shit and we folded though if that helps, I wasn't happy with it at all.

Oh, so Ole is an 'excellent manager' now after 9 games in charge? That's all it takes now? Ole hasn't rewritten the wrongs of previous United managers, he's come in and given you a good winning streak. The underlying problems are still there at the club, they've not all gone just because you've had an excellent start. Ole did what everybody has been calling for, he came in and ripped the shackles off and gave a bit of attacking freedom to the team. He's not done anything unprecedented or genius since becoming manager, you have world class players at the club who were drastically under-performing because Mourinho was a toxic influence.

Is it a myth? That's just your opinion. We've seen plenty of managers come in mid-season (even at relegation threatened teams!) and experience excellent form for 10 games or so, the 'new manager effect' is well documented and absolutely a thing in football that you have to consider. It's why generally you don't pass judgement on a new manager until he's had at least a full season in charge, which is why hailing Ole as the best thing since sliced bread because he went on a good run was very reactionary, understandable because shock horror United fans are happy to be playing exciting football and getting results, but reactionary nonetheless.

Just because Newcastle beat City doesn't mean they're automatically a good side. We beat them, Chelsea beat them, Arsenal beat them and Liverpool beat them. They're a pretty crap side that got one good result. You had a very kind run of fixtures to kick Ole off and that helped generate more momentum, you still had to win these games (and as we constantly see, no PL fixture is a shoe in) but I do think your board timed the sacking well. I'm not saying Ole hasn't done a great job (he clearly has) but I do think he came in to a favourable situation where the players would also have been desperate to prove something.

Much of nothing? I said it was a really shit result when you're going for top 4, which it undeniably is. Dropping points at home to Burnley when you're chasing fourth is bad. It's not apocalyptic or the end of your chances but I haven't said that, have I? Yesterday was a terrible result for United, I'd have said the same earlier in the season when we nearly drew the same fixture. You can't drop points in games like that. It doesn't change the fact that overall Ole has had a very successful tenure, and I don't think anybody is suggesting he's been anything but very good in his time as interim manager.

The problem is if people are going to heavily scrutinise Pochettino and call him a loser/bottler every time his team has a bad result, the same scrutiny is going to be applied to Ole going forward.

 

[crossy1686]

Looks like more or less same as Poch's last season at Espanyol.

People conveniently forget that Pochettino and Klopp both had shit seasons at clubs too but for some reason use it as a stick to beat Solskjaer with. If we're using a manager's worst season ever to define who he is then lets at least be consistent with it.

 

[PeteManic]

Poch is so overrated.

This might seem far-fetched, but how different is he from Moyes?

Of course, Spurs don't play Everton type football, but it's a similar story of coming into a club and working with limited resources to get a top 4 finish. And that's it. Never managed a big club before. Not a trophy in sight.

Despite their style of play being completely different, their profiles as managers is very similar.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

People conveniently forget that Pochettino and Klopp both had shit seasons at clubs too but for some reason use it as a stick to beat Solskjaer with. If we're using a manager's worst season ever to define who he is then lets at least be consistent with it.

Are people doing this? Or are they just pointing out that Ole too has had failures in the past, and we can't really form an accurate judgement of him from his stint at United so far.

His poor performances at Cardiff don't mean he is a bad manager, just like Pochettino doing poorly with Espanyol doesn't make him a bad one. It may be just that Cardiff were doomed and Ole is suited more to a top team, but we won't really know until he's had a season or so at United.

What is worse, people hailing him as fantastic because of 9 games, or people saying he's not the bees knees because of a season at Cardiff?

 

[Dec9003]

The problem is if people are going to heavily scrutinise Pochettino and call him a loser/bottler every time his team has a bad result, the same scrutiny is going to be applied to Ole going forward.

So what I said originally then. Given that Poch has recieved plenty of over the top criticism, you're now doing the same to Ole as a way of balancing things.
Ole hasn't gotten much wrong so far, and to boil it down to letting the shackles off and having an easy fixture list (in which we came to your ground and your biggest rivals ground, beating both) is incredibly unfair. It would be like me saying well you know all Pochettino has done is picked Kane and Eriksen and benefited from his scouts finding Alli, nothing exactly genius there whilst not winning anything for donkeys years.
This would of course be a bit harsh, much like you're being by downplaying the changes Solsjkaer has made to tactics,
Lineups and coaching staff.
Ole may not be an excellent manager yet, but Pochettino has to prove he is as well.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Poch is so overrated.

This might seem far-fetched, but how different is he from Moyes?

Of course, Spurs don't play Everton type football, but it's a similar story of coming into a club and working with limited resources to get a top 4 finish. And that's it. Never managed a big club before. Not a trophy in sight.

Despite their style of play being completely different, their profiles as managers is very similar.

Nope.

Moyes finished fourth. Once. He also finished mid-table with Everton multiple times, and even in the lower half once I believe. He never got to the Champions League group stages because he got knocked out by Villareal in the preliminary round the single time he actually qualified (which he did by achieving the lowest point tally to get 4th ever) and his teams were pragmatic and dull. They scraped results and fluked 4th once in a weak year.

Pochettino has finished top 4 3 times in 4 seasons at the club, and looks set to make it four out of 5. He's not scraped it on any of these occasions, finishing runners up and third twice. We've qualified from the CL group stages twice and domestically reached a semi final three times and a final once, whilst playing very good football and consistently managing excellent points tallies. Just because (like Everton) we've failed to win a trophy doesn't mean it's a 'similar profile', that's a gross over-simplification.

Comparisons between Moyes' and Pochettino's work are entirely false. There are genuine criticisms you can make about Poch, but when you drop that low there's just so little scope for argument and it just looks ignorant of what he has actually achieved at the club. There's more similarities between Dyche and Moyes if anything.

 

[crossy1686]

Are people doing this? Or are they just pointing out that Ole too has had failures in the past, and we can't really form an accurate judgement of him from his stint at United so far.

His poor performances at Cardiff don't mean he is a bad manager, just like Pochettino doing poorly with Espanyol doesn't make him a bad one. It may be just that Cardiff were doomed and Ole is suited more to a top team, but we won't really know until he's had a season or so at United.

What is worse, people hailing him as fantastic because of 9 games, or people saying he's not the bees knees because of a season at Cardiff?

I don't have an issue with anyone highlighting mistakes or bad seasons had by any manager, I think it's safe to say that all the managers I mentioned are actually pretty good otherwise they wouldn't be where they are today. Picking the wrong job and backing yourself to do well is a brave move and I don't think people should be judged too harshly for giving it a go because it can happen to anyone. Sometimes there isn't anything you can do about a deep set culture.

I do have a problem however, with people using absolutes to describe things or people, it's part of our culture to be the first to call something so you can say you were right in a year or so's time.

I'm not sure people are saying Solskjaer is the best thing ever based on winning 8 out of his first 9 games, it's more than that. United actually feel like United again and not some club trying to impersonate United. From the press conferences to the style of play, everything just feels better. That's where this clamour for Solskjaer is coming from, the results have definitely helped however.

We're even at the point where Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans are questioning whether Fergie is pulling strings behind the curtain, if that's not a compliment then I don't know what is.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

So what I said originally then. Given that Poch has recieved plenty of over the top criticism, you're now doing the same to Ole as a way of balancing things.
Ole hasn't gotten much wrong so far, and to boil it down to letting the shackles off and having an easy fixture list (in which we came to your ground and your biggest rivals ground, beating both) is incredibly unfair. It would be like me saying well you know all Pochettino has done is picked Kane and Eriksen and benefited from his scouts finding Alli, nothing exactly genius there whilst not winning anything for donkeys years.
This would of course be a bit harsh, much like you're being by downplaying the changes Solsjkaer has made to tactics,
Lineups and coaching staff.
Ole may not be an excellent manager yet, but Pochettino has to prove he is as well.

Eh, maybe. I don't think my criticism was that over the top. I've acknowledged he's done a very good job at United and I praised his appointment at the time, I like Ole and think you should probably appoint him, he seems like he suits the club well. I just think the Burnley result was very poor and that he made a mistake in changing a winning formula.

I'm not boiling it all down to that, he's done well. I'm just pointing out that these factors exist and have to be acknowledged. I'm not saying that Ole has entirely relied on this and is just some joker who does nothing other than pick the side every week, it's just that I do believe he's come in under favourable circumstances. The removal of Mourinho would have been a breath of fresh air for the squad, and the arrival of a positive, happy manager who wants to play on the front foot made it a good recipe for success. Your club played it well. Your two wins over us and Arsenal were excellent, but in the former I'd argue that you leaned very heavily on lady luck. I don't want to restart that old debate again but I'd say it is dubious to give Ole too much credit for the win at Wembley, it wasn't some mastermind display of tactics in which we were totally shut down.


Pochettino has proven far more as a manager than Ole has. This isn't really up for debate, unless you're a purist who thinks a manager can only have done a good job if he has a trophy in his cabinet. He's not an elite manager, but he is a very good one who has transformed a club over a number of seasons. His lack of trophies counts against him, but it doesn't dismiss the good work he has done. Ole has far longer to go because he's only had 9 games in charge at United.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I'm not sure people are saying Solskjaer is the best thing ever based on winning 8 out of his first 9 games, it's more than that. United actually feel like United again and not some club trying to impersonate United. From the press conferences to the style of play, everything just feels better. That's where this clamour for Solskjaer is coming from, the results have definitely helped however.

We're even at the point where Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans are questioning whether Fergie is pulling strings behind the curtain, if that's not a compliment then I don't know what is.

Let's be fair though, you feel like United again because you're winning. If you had lost against us and Arsenal nobody would be saying 'we've got our United back' just because you were trying to play attacking football. Well, maybe a few would but certainly not a majority, and there's no way people would want Ole in as manager. Everything feels better because you've got an old legend who has come in after being stifled by let's face it, an utterly toxic influence that Mourinho had become.

That's cool, I mean I'm not going to try and shit on the Ole parade because feck, obviously United fans are going to be happy, 8/9 wins while playing great football? I'm not surprised you're delighted. Being a fan isn't always about being rational and measured, it's meant to be entertaining and you're allowed to dream. It's just when people talk up Ole as if he's a born winner because of a short stint at United and Pochettino is this big loser, I find it a little ridiculous. But that's fine, I mean at the end of the day it's a United forum, there's going to be huge bias towards Ole.

 

[Revan]

Let's be fair though, you feel like United again because you're winning. If you had lost against us and Arsenal nobody would be saying 'we've got our United back' just because you were trying to play attacking football. Well, maybe a few would but certainly not a majority, and there's no way people would want Ole in as manager. Everything feels better because you've got an old legend who has come in after being stifled by let's face it, an utterly toxic influence that Mourinho had become.

That's cool, I mean I'm not going to try and shit on the Ole parade because feck, obviously United fans are going to be happy, 8/9 wins while playing great football? I'm not surprised you're delighted. Being a fan isn't always about being rational and measured, it's meant to be entertaining and you're allowed to dream. It's just when people talk up Ole as if he's a born winner because of a short stint at United and Pochettino is this big loser, I find it a little ridiculous. But that's fine, I mean at the end of the day it's a United forum, there's going to be huge bias towards Ole.

When Mourinho won 8 in a row or so, we were nowhere as excited as we are now. It hasn't only been that we have been winning recently, but also the manner how we have been winning. Bar the Spurs game, we have been very dominant in every game until last match (when we had 28 shots). We have been playing very nice football, winning and Ole is saying the right things. Understandable to be excited.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

When Mourinho won 8 in a row or so, we were nowhere as excited as we are now. It hasn't only been that we have been winning recently, but also the manner how we have been winning. Bar the Spurs game, we have been very dominant in every game until last match (when we had 28 shots). We have been playing very nice football, winning and Ole is saying the right things. Understandable to be excited.

When was this? Start of last season?

And yeah, it's totally understandable to be excited. It would be downright weird if United fans weren't.

 

[Revan]

When was this? Start of last season?

And yeah, it's totally understandable to be excited. It would be downright weird if United fans weren't.

Middle of last season if I am not mistaken. However, it looked more like a fluke rather than us being great.

This has been only the second really great spell we have had since Fergie left (first was under LVG when we defeated Liverpool, Spurs, City and draw despite being better with Chelsea, all while playing great football).

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Middle of last season if I am not mistaken. However, it looked more like a fluke rather than us being great.

This has been only the second really great spell we have had since Fergie left (first was under LVG when we defeated Liverpool, Spurs, City and draw despite being better with Chelsea, all while playing great football).

I seem to remember at the start of last season you looked great and most people thought that it would be a straight fight between you and City for the title. Lukaku enjoyed a really good start and you were putting 3 or 4 past a few sides like Swansea.

 

[Revan]

I seem to remember at the start of last season you looked great and most people thought that it would be a straight fight between you and City for the title. Lukaku enjoyed a really good start and you were putting 3 or 4 past a few sides like Swansea.

Yep, there were 3-4 quite good matches (though it was more ruthless finishing rather than great attacking football). Then City defeated us, and Mourinho shit his pants and went into defensive mode.

 

[hellohello]

Too bad that Ole bottled it last night when the pressure was on and he was getting close to top 4

Is what people would say if this was Pochettino and Spurs.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Yep, there were 3-4 quite good matches (though it was more ruthless finishing rather than great attacking football). Then City defeated us, and Mourinho shit his pants and went into defensive mode.

Yeah I remember this, was billed as a huge game in the title race at the time. Weird how you went from that to that incredible win at the Etihad.

(which by the way cost me £600, had an accumulator on and nearly cashed out at 2-0 but told myself there's no way they'll let this slip.)