I genuinely don’t know anymore, it makes my head hurt. All I can think is that ANY troops on the border at all will become targets for paramilitaries
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I genuinely don’t know anymore, it makes my head hurt. All I can think is that ANY troops on the border at all will become targets for paramilitaries
And that's the issue. The GFA allows both Irish sides to take pretty much any decision as long as it's compatible with a peaceful society. I guess that it's the most important term used in the agreement, peaceful society.
In short, no. There would also be zero will from either Irish politicians or the Irish police themselves to police a border they fundamentally do not want.
The truth is the things you are arguing aren't based on facts, history or real knowledge or backing. The things you are really arguing are based on hope, hope and hope which is what the whole leave campaign is based on. If your whole thought process is based on hope, luck or full on disasters with no real base then really you are an "idiot".
Anybody else getting their Brexit news from memes rather than face the horrors of reality?
Thanks for these. I'm now in hysterics at work.
If your circumstances are shit and you don't see anyone representing your views or offering solutions you believe in I'd argue voting with hope is all you have.
Thanks for these. I'm now in hysterics at work.
There's some absolute gold ones on the facebook page today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2160844430646683&set=pcb.2174913162589407&type=3&theater
Thanks Mike, I just posted it in case anyone wanted to see the actual GFA
Not in a million years. An Irish politician will never OK a border on our island.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...stockpiled-in-uk-over-fears-of-no-deal-brexit
Trauma packs, always a sign that political negotiations are going well.
Trauma packs, always a sign that political negotiations are going well.
What I was wondering today was, if the UK leaves with no deal, does that put Ireland on a collision course with Brussels? Presumably Brussels would insist they implement customs and immigration controls as required by EU law, and the Irish government would be under huge domestic pressure to avoid a visible border?
Exactly. I'm confused at what I'm reading from some posters tbh...
Trying to boil the issue down to its most basic terms, is this a fair summary?
Here are three statements from the British wish list:
a) no hard border in Northern Ireland
b) no border in the Irish Sea
c) an independent British trade policy
You can have any two of these, but not all three.
a+b = UK-wide Customs Union (basically the backstop)
a+c = NI remains in EU customs union. The rest of the UK is free to strike trade deals.
b+c = Hard Brexit (leave with no deal)
a+b+c = IMPOSSIBLE
Here are three statements from the British wish list:
a) no hard border in Northern Ireland
b) no border in the Irish Sea
c) an independent British trade policy
You can have any two of these, but not all three.
a+b = UK-wide Customs Union (basically the backstop)
a+c = NI remains in EU customs union. The rest of the UK is free to strike trade deals.
b+c = Hard Brexit (leave with no deal)
a+b+c = IMPOSSIBLE
Yes, at least for so long as the government relies on DUP votes. Even without the DUP, I think giving N Ireland that kind of half in/half out status in your option b would have Scotland gettting ready for Indy Ref 2.
Me, for example?
Just ignore everything I said today. There is absolutely no justification for voting Brexit unless you are stupid or racist.
That seems correct. Can we send you to parliament?
Yes , the problem is that not a single MP in the UK parliament appears to understand this.
The EU cannot understand why the British parliament are so stupid.
Yes you, but not only you. Just look at the knots your tying yourself up in trying to make the point? If you stuck to stating that it's mean (and a generalisation) to call them all idiots then I'd have agreed with you, because that's true. The arguements you then proceeded to make attempting to play devil's advocate though, well they just highlighted idiotic/ignorant/spiteful mindsets, viewpoints, positions...
So it's left me bewildered because I can't see how you can believe what you are saying... Right there you use the word justification, not all justifications are equal or even valid.
As for positing that the politicians that misled them, and allowed this to happen, are the only people that we should blame.... Sorry but no. I blame all of them, they don't get to absolve themselves of blame.
There would have been people in those same communities, and in similar positions, that disagreed with them and voted to remain. I'm sure they won't see it the way you think they should when their situations get worse.
Bare in mind I'm confused because you're one of a few poster that respect on here so don't take it to heart...
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Despite currently downplaying the prospect of a hard border domestically, realistically the Irish government know some sort of border would have to return in a no deal scenario, even if they try to minimise the impact as much as they can. There wouldn't be any collision course over that basic principle as they simply have legal obligations to meet in that scenario.
However, they would likely intend for it to be a temporary border by insisting that the EU make resolution of the border issue a precondition for any EU-UK trade relationship after the no deal exit. Which would leave the UK faced with essentially having to accept similar terms regarding the border as currently outlined in the WA. I think the Irish government fundamentally believe the border issue will be resolved one way or another, it's just a matter of how much damage is done before then.
An Irish government would certainly face domestic pressure as a result of even a temporary border being erected but the reality is that the vast majority of the blame within Ireland would be directed towards the UK in a no deal scenario. Fine Gael would be hurt politically but not as much as if they were to, say, concede on the backstop issue as in that scenario they would be open to allegations of selling out the GFA themselves.
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The only thing that makes it stupid is the lack of plan, there isn't even a basic and realisitc project offered by the politicians currently in place. That's where your scenario becomes problematic because you mentioned things that are already possible but not offered by the current political class, people vote for the same politicians but decide to leave an union that made the country richer and supported some of the poorest regions of the UK. Common sense simply left the building.
The politicians bit I don't think was me. Can't think what I said to do with that. Unless you point me to a specific post.
My only real point here is one. Not all those voters are stupid. That's it. They have their reasons. Some of them.
I'm tying myself in knots going further because whatever their reasons are, they aren't mine. I can't concinvingly represent their opinions because they aren't mine. But I believe there are legitimate, non foolish reasons to vote that way. I guess I have to leave it at that.
Actually rereading I see what you are referencing re politicians. Yes, that's my view. It should never have been a referendum. So yes, I blame politicians more than voters.
Nah fam, now you have to give a few of those reasons... You started this. Non foolish, non selfish, non cnutish.... Go!
Or Option E in Today's Tory Fantasy Land (trademark pending), according to Nick Timothy the Republic should just leave the custom union and bish bash problemo solved.
I forget. What is the beef with the border in the sea rather than physically on land.
I can't. It knots me.
Because it splits NI from the rest of the UK
Cause the DUP sed so.
They dont want to be seperated from the rest of the Union (except when they do).
I reckon if May hadn't called that GE and ended up relying on the DUP this would have been the compromise. But DUP can't accept it and they have disproportionate power.
If brexit has shown anything it’s that England doesn’t really give a shit about the union, it’s England first. So why shouldn’t the scots get another ref?
Christ above.
I think the parliamentary maths might still have ruled it out. There are quite a few English unionists in the Conservative party (a majority even) who have an ideological problem with dividing the union internally. I believe Theresa May herself thinks this - she voted against Welsh devolution for example, even after the referendum in favour of it, ironically.
I also think the SNP would also have kicked off if the perception was NI was being allowed to stay partially in the EU, and Scotland was not.
They already voted, a second referendum wouldn't be democratic.
never gets old...The SNP are waiting for the best moment to call for one, ie when they think they'll win. They got one last time of course, I'm sure they'll get another in time if they clearly want one, Britain isn't Spain
.Wonder why he achieved zilch in 2 years. Clown.
They’ve been spouting that shite in the media for 2 weeks. Nigel farage has been trying it too. But Ireland wants to stay in the Eu (last public poll was nearly 90% pro Europe) so that shites a non-runner and they’re embarrassing themselves by suggesting it
Companies are paying him a fortune to be a consultant.
Perhaps he should sit down in a dark room and reflect . Ask himself which is the only country of the EU28 preparing to stockpile food and medicines.
You've got a fair point there. When people are taking about how the EU will do this or do that, do they ever specify who they are taking about? You have the individual countries, them you have the EU government. They are all different entities with their own needs, agendas, problems...