Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK
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Absolutely no chance in hell shes allowed back in the country. She made her decision and she’s got to live with it.
If I'm not mistaken, our options would be.
1) Let them be judged/imprisoned in Iraq/Syria.
2) Bring them back to the UK & sentence them with some sort of crime against the state.
3) Bring them back & let them go free.
3 would cause a shitstorm like nothing else, 2 would probably be the diplomatic choice, and 1 would cause a different kinda shitstorm altogether.
2 is what we'll see, with a "long" sentence, with all offenders likely out within five years
(I'd be more than happy with 2 if the sentence was actually meaningful).If I'm not mistaken, our options would be.
1) Let them be judged/imprisoned in Iraq/Syria.
2) Bring them back to the UK & sentence them with some sort of crime against the state.
3) Bring them back & let them go free.
3 would cause a shitstorm like nothing else, 2 would probably be the diplomatic choice, and 1 would cause a different kinda shitstorm altogether.
2 is what we'll see, with a "long" sentence, with all offenders likely out within five years
I wonder what the exact charges against a pregnant teen would be in the event of 2?
I'm unsure, but she's legally an adult now, and showing no remorse for what she's clearly been a part of. All I really hope for is that child is taken away from her & given to some more... Normal parents.
That she has no regrets and doesn't seem to care turns me from potentially having some sort of small amount of sympathy, to feck her. You can't just disappear to a warzone, support death, torture and destruction and nip back all rosy.
Massive headaches on the horizon. She’ll be charged with going over there no doubt, and perhaps soliciting support for ISIS (assuming she left some sort of social media trail behind), but beyond that it would be hard if not impossible to prove anything. Those charges won’t earn much time, especially considering it’s quite likely that at some point she engaged in slavery (among other things).
Indeed. Might sound a bit classless, but it would've been easier for the government (in more ways than one) if she'd died over there.
Pretty much how I see it. If she'd left, realised quickly she'd made a mistake, & tried to come back, then fair play, live & learn (obviously there would be more to it than that, but yeah). But if you're over there as long as possible, don't regret a thing, & want to come back for the care you'd get in the UK for yourself & your child?
Takes the piss.She supported a Caliphate. ISIS were obviously cnuts about achieving it, but unless she materially supported war crimes it'd be harsh to charge her with anything beyond believing the propaganda of an Islamic flavoured Utopia.
Nothing she's done suggests she anti-UK. Her politics are clearly muddled, but I've not seen anything to make me believe they're outright malicious. Though, in fairness, I've only read that BBC article so I'm sure there will be things I'm missing.
I'd imagine her treatment by the British Government will depend on a lengthy pre-entry interview.
She supported IS specifically though. She was every bit part of IS no? Presumably just without killing anyone. Those like her certainly made it more appealing to others to be a part of it. Essentially abetting murder really isn't it?
Why are so many willing to give the woman the benefit of the doubt? Because she's a woman? Anybody that chose to join Isis should be judged the same. We know a lot of what Isis were responsible for as a whole but we don't know which individuals were ultimately responsible for some of the atrocities, so I wouldn't be willing to give anybody the benefit of the doubt.
I’m not seeing much of that, to judge from online comments she’ll be Britain’s most hated woman if/when she returns.
The only difference between the men and the girl is she was 15 years old so a small benefit of the doubt based on her age. Whilst the other guys were grown men who knew what isis were a about and ignored all warnings from the gov and local communities.
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It's not like ISIS were shy and secretive about HOW they want to bring about the Caliphate.
And she herself says that seeing heads casually thrown in the bins did not faze her because it was an "enemy of Islam". And she admits she has no regrets and the ONLY reason she wants to come back is the child.
The baby is of course innocent in all this and that makes it more complicated. But if not for the baby, I don't think I'd blame the UK government if they just stripped her of her citizenship and refused to let her back in.
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Exactly.
No sympathy for her whatsoever, she should be refused entry as her apparent indifference about the heads in bins would suggest a certain callousness associated with the extremists that carry out these atrocities, rather than a poor innocent girl seduced by the promises of more sinister people.
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I’d imagine that the taxpayers will have to support her & her child if she does come back.
Very tricky situation. Can the British govmnt refuse to allow her back?
Very tricky situation. Can the British govmnt refuse to allow her back?
That'd be a ludicrous amount of ammunition for an already antagonized far-right.
Anyway, here's what the BBC home affairs correspondent had to say:
A little ridiculous to even frame the idea of going out and saving her as an option. Shouldn't have to be said that obviously we don't go and send troops to save ISIS members.
She's shown absolutely zero contrition and her only regret is that, no surprise, the caliphate isn't actually that great a place to bring up healthy babies. She's clearly still an extremist in her beliefs, citizenship should be automatically revoked.
It's actually far worse to be a 15 year old who may have been lured out but shows no regrets or remorse for ISIS crimes after all this time out there, than be someone older and wiser who went out but came to their senses after seeing what a murderous cult of crackpots actually looks like close up.
She's shown absolutely zero contrition and her only regret is that, no surprise, the caliphate isn't actually that great a place to bring up healthy babies. She's clearly still an extremist in her beliefs, citizenship should be automatically revoked.
It's actually far worse to be a 15 year old who may have been lured out but shows no regrets or remorse for ISIS crimes after all this time out there, than be someone older and wiser who went out but came to their senses after seeing what a murderous cult of crackpots actually looks like close up.
If at this stage of her pregnancy she's in limbo then most likely the child will be born out there. Is it then a British child?
According to the articles I've read, yes.
Then if the child is born go and save it, forget her though.
Not much sympathy for Shamima out there:
I would love to know that rational logic / thought process of those 16% thinking she should be allowed to return.
I'm in no way giving her the benefit of the doubt because she is a woman. She left when she was a 15 year old child, no doubt after prolonged radicalisation online, and she has been raped while in Syria. Of course she has no regrets, she's a radicalised terrorist and as yet no one has attempted to unpick that radicalisation. If we want to remove the views she currently holds from the world, she needs to be brought back to the UK, given a lengthy prison sentence with custody of her unborn child taken away from her, and she needs to undergo rehabilitation to become deradicalised.
Edit: And it is our responsibility, not just as her home country, but as people of the world to do the above, in my opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right and radicalism breeds radicalism. Not letting her back means there is one more radicalised terrorist out there having children and raising them to be radicalised themselves.
@Heardy
I guess one reason could be "stupid kid when she went there"...
Please leave the brides of ISIS out there. There is no sane person who gets up and leaves to go and fight with ISIS. Nothing good can come of bringing those people back to the UK.
This government has no problem letting people starve to death in the UK, no problem cutting of benefits for terminally ill people, no problem deporting black pensioners to a country they can't even remember on technicalities, it has no problem jumping through hoops to keep out legitimate refugees. Heck this government is even willing to destroy the economy just to be seen to be keeping out the gypsies from Eastern Europe. If all of that bullshit has done it no harm - keeping one isis bride where she belongs won't either.
This government has no problem letting people starve to death in the UK, no problem cutting of benefits for terminally ill people, no problem deporting black pensioners to a country they can't even remember on technicalities, it has no problem jumping through hoops to keep out legitimate refugees. Heck this government is even willing to destroy the economy just to be seen to be keeping out the gypsies from Eastern Europe. If all of that bullshit has done it no harm - keeping one isis bride where she belongs won't either.
Another good reason to bring them back, same for the people who go out to fight against ISIS. These are mentally ill people who have been radicalised and we have a responsibility to treat them.
The rest of your post are non-sequiturs.
Not mentally ill - just really stupid and radicalised. Importing isis supporters is literally importing trouble.
I share a religion and an ethnic background with this woman - if anything i ought to have more reason than anyone else to be in her corner, but it's a really dumb idea. it's not like she's changed her mind - she still support them and has openly said so!
Again, she hasn't changed her mind because she is a radicalised terrorist; why would she change her mind without any meaningful work being done to rehabilitate her thinking?
All leaving her in Syria does is perpetuate the problem of radicalised religions in the Middle East. We can't hope to defeat radicalism if we are going to turn a blind eye to it and let it fester at its source.
I don't think the British governments deradicalisation programs work at all. As a young man i signed up to help in a Prevent Scheme. The general idea of the project was to create youth facilties staffed by younger people who were equipped with a proper understanding of religion. The idea was that if kids had safe spaces to be in, you could engage with them on topics like what was happening in the news and ask questions and try and clear up miconceptions that could be later manipulated by radicals.
The scheme worked for a bit but ultimately failed. Multiple reasons;
1. Too many similar schemes were being setup because the government was throwing money at the problem without any checks. People were scamming it and so the community in general felt these things were money spinners.
2. The government was constantly talking about problems with Muslims, problems with Islam itself, rather than talking about a problem with radicalisation. They kept making a political problem, a theological one. People were uncomfortable about whether these schemes were taking government money to whitewash islamic teachings to suit govt agenda. The ultra conservatives within our community pushed this narrative hard.
3. There were high levels of uncle tommery involved in these projects. Most Muslims in Britain at that point were second generation immigrants, we're not really British, we're not really Pakistani/Bengali/whatever anymore either. We're at an odd stage where we're both and neither - any 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter 1 iota. However schemes like Prevent put the community and the people involved in them under the microscope - so they'd over compensate with rhetoric, especially around officialdom - again it made people uncomfortable and distrust the programs.
The government and the media have continued since to verbally flog muslims in the media for political points, further isolating our communities and schemes like Prevent have morphed into what is now clearly a witch hunt against Muslims. You bring little Miss Isis 2019 back to the UK and the people trying to de-radicalise her won't have any credibility in her eyes.
There are such things as a lost cause.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47248555
Not sure where I stand on this one.
On the one hand there is the argument that she has made her bed and should now lie in it. She's also completely unrepentant about leaving in the first place and seems to want to come back to the UK to have her kid (two she has had already died in Syria). Seems like pretty selfish, even if understandably selfish, reasons to want to come back.
However, she was just 15 when she left, so far from an adult. Its clear she was brainwashed and sounds like she still is. Can completely understand that her family wants her back home and for help with cleansing her mind of all of that stuff. Is that even possible though? Can she ever be free of that ideology now with what she has lived through / witnessed?
On balance, I'm erring towards let her stay where she is, but its not a straightforward situation.
Not sure where I stand on this one.
On the one hand there is the argument that she has made her bed and should now lie in it. She's also completely unrepentant about leaving in the first place and seems to want to come back to the UK to have her kid (two she has had already died in Syria). Seems like pretty selfish, even if understandably selfish, reasons to want to come back.
However, she was just 15 when she left, so far from an adult. Its clear she was brainwashed and sounds like she still is. Can completely understand that her family wants her back home and for help with cleansing her mind of all of that stuff. Is that even possible though? Can she ever be free of that ideology now with what she has lived through / witnessed?
On balance, I'm erring towards let her stay where she is, but its not a straightforward situation.
I wouldn't let her back in
I take the point about brainwashing, but they all are brain washed (and so are we?) and we need to draw the line somewhere. An unrepentant girl who, it seems, just wants access to decent health-care is way beyond that line, for me.
I take the point about brainwashing, but they all are brain washed (and so are we?) and we need to draw the line somewhere. An unrepentant girl who, it seems, just wants access to decent health-care is way beyond that line, for me.
It is a tricky one. She was just a kid but, equally, not letting her back could be a pretty good disincentive to any other kids thinking about making the same trip.
I'm never a fan of condemning someone for the actions of when they were a youth. I don't think letting her in will deter anyone from going over there if they really wanted to. Hardly make rational decisions when brainwashed.
No idea what we would do with her if she came back though.
No idea what we would do with her if she came back though.
She can get fcuked for all I care. She chose to leave, you have to stand by your decisions.
She's probably been commanded to come back as some sort of Jihadi breeding nest for the next wave of terrorists.
Makes me laugh that she isn't even hiding the fact she purely wants to come back so that the baby will be looked after. Do the Islamic State not have the NHS?
If the country lets her back and pays for her and the child for the rest of their lives I really fear for our future.
She's probably been commanded to come back as some sort of Jihadi breeding nest for the next wave of terrorists.
Makes me laugh that she isn't even hiding the fact she purely wants to come back so that the baby will be looked after. Do the Islamic State not have the NHS?
If the country lets her back and pays for her and the child for the rest of their lives I really fear for our future.
I don't think the government should be able to ban British citizens from entering Britain. That's not to say the government has to try to rescue her from whatever situation she finds herself in.
If she does manage to make it back, she should be prosecuted under British law.
If she does manage to make it back, she should be prosecuted under British law.