Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

As I recall the UK is giving the EU £39bn

It's not a gift, it's what they owe and includes the cost of the transition period if there is one and will be reduced if they go out with no deal.

 

[Honest John]

You don't find 44% of Australians not happy with the trading arrangements they have.

Answer the question and the UK weren't working for the EU, they were decision makers, the EU is treaty based.

Whilst the UK were member it was instrumental in forming the EU. Many of the laws that the Labour party now think we are going to abandon were tabled and driven by the UK. But whilst the UK was acting in good faith it, like many countries in the EU, was often only acting on narrow approval for the whole project. If it has done nothing else, Brexit has demonstrated just how flimsy that approval can be.

I would suggest the the current approval rating of the EU would have been boosted by expansion and the inclusion of countries that are still in a honeymoon period.

The EU will be challenged in the future and these challenges will expose all manner of prejudices in various countries. The migrant crisis put this into stark relief.

The idea that you can fudge the books to allow nations into the block when they were clearly not ready to be admitted, was highlighted by the Greek affair.

It almost suggests a fanatical approach to some master plan which must be fulfilled no matter what the consequence.

These issues have not gone away and if the EU persists with this unwavering approach to the project then I fear the worst.

 

[Honest John]

Not if there's no deal.

And they're not "giving" anything, that is money they owe. It's not a gift.

Yeah but we are not asking for our salary to continue to be paid as suggested above.

 

[JPRouve]

The people in 1975 are not the same people who voted in 2016.
The press wasn't the same in 1975.
Social media brainwashing the gullibles didn't exist in 1975.

One thing is quite clear though, the majority of the electorate didn't know what they voted for in 1975 or 2016.
I didn't vote for British Leyland to sell its Morris Marinas in 1975.

And I think that it's the issue because most of the things people are now talking about were already there when the UK joined, some weren't like the monetary union or Schengen but the UK opted-out. It would be nice for people to mention something that the UK were coerced to join between 1975 and 2015.

 

[Siorac]

Everyone knows that the EU isn't perfect and literally no one has ever suggested that it shouldn't evolve and improve. The irony here is that the poster that you are responding to was telling us yesterday that there was no reason to change the institutions that existed in 1975. Brexiteers are highly dishonest, they play for both teams, claim that they want change and then claim that things should go back to the way they were.

The one thing the EU should do is make its benefits more visible, especially to citizens of the richer countries. Here in Hungary it's bleeding obvious why being part of the EU is a good thing (ignore the anti-Brussels rhetoric of the government, it's nothing but posturing about immigration, aimed at the domestic voters). But maybe the EU need to do more to show the average citizens in richer countries why being a part of it is a good thing.

I have no idea how to do that, mind. I'm not exactly a great fan of the idea of spending tons of money on propaganda.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yeah but we are not asking for our salary to continue to be paid as suggested above.

But the Uk are asking for the same benefits as when they're in it, first the Tories and now Labour.

Usually when you leave your job, you have an idea to get another job or go for something better , the UK are quitting not because the outside is better and they've got nothing lined up.
It's like being a member of the board and resigning and deciding to apply for a job as an office boy if you can find a company that wants you and at a much lower salary.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And I think that it's the issue because most of the things people are now talking about were already there when the UK joined, some weren't like the monetary union or Schengen but the UK opted-out. It would be nice for people to mention something that the UK were coerced to join between 1975 and 2015.

I think very few people really understand what the EU/EC is or was about.
In 1975 the UK had so many problems it's got to be better in the EU, in 2016 we can get rid of some immigrants and we want to be mighty UK again and that's basically it.

 

[JPRouve]

The one thing the EU should do is make its benefits more visible, especially to citizens of the richer countries. Here in Hungary it's bleeding obvious why being part of the EU is a good thing (ignore the anti-Brussels rhetoric of the government, it's nothing but posturing about immigration, aimed at the domestic voters). But maybe the EU need to do more to show the average citizens in richer countries why being a part of it is a good thing.

I have no idea how to do that, mind. I'm not exactly a great fan of the idea of spending tons of money on propaganda.

It's not possible because the main communities are very old, people have almost only lived with them. Just think about this, the EUCU was created in 1968 and we have politicians that are just discovering it, we have people that have had years to look at what was around in 1975 and didn't even after the referendum. People don't want to know, they want to blame something or someone.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You don't find 44% of Australians not happy with the trading arrangements they have.
.

You wont find 0.44% of British people who know what the Uk's trading arrangements are.

I'd be surprised if 0.044% of British people know how international trade works.

But the country have decided to take their advice.

 

[JPRouve]

You don't find 44% of Australians not happy with the trading arrangements they have.

Whilst the UK were member it was instrumental in forming the EU. Many of the laws that the Labour party now think we are going to abandon were tabled and driven by the UK. But whilst the UK was acting in good faith it, like many countries in the EU, was often only acting on narrow approval for the whole project. If it has done nothing else, Brexit has demonstrated just how flimsy that approval can be.

I would suggest the the current approval rating of the EU would have been boosted by expansion and the inclusion of countries that are still in a honeymoon period.

The EU will be challenged in the future and these challenges will expose all manner of prejudices in various countries. The migrant crisis put this into stark relief.

The idea that you can fudge the books to allow nations into the block when they were clearly not ready to be admitted, was highlighted by the Greek affair.

It almost suggests a fanatical approach to some master plan which must be fulfilled no matter what the consequence.

These issues have not gone away and if the EU persists with this unwavering approach to the project then I fear the worst.

So since the UK have been instrumental in forming the EU, what is the argument to leave the EU and demand introspection from the EU?

 

[JPRouve]

You wont find 0.44% of British people who know what the Uk's trading arrangements are.

I'd be surprised if 0.044% of British people know how international trade works.

But the country have decided to take their advice.

And the EC wasn't a trade arrangement.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yeah but we are not asking for our salary to continue to be paid as suggested above.

But you owe them money for previous obligations. Just because you made some analogy about a worker and their employer doesn't make it accurate here. It's more like if you sign legally binding contracts with a company that state you have to invest a certain amount of money over time, under the agreement that you won't be leaving, and then you decide to leave, you still have to pay those investments. You can't just decide to feck off without doing so, that's not how the world works.

 

[Honest John]

So since the UK have been instrumental in forming the EU, what is the argument to leave the EU and demand introspection from the EU?

Demand is a bit strong. When did I demand that? And if you read what I have said then I readily accept that the UK will need to take a long hard look at itself after all this. What you seem to be devoid of is any concept at all that the current plan is flawed and may need to be reviewed. Or do you think the EU is working?

I mean where else on this planet is the EU model being duplicated? Do you think the Australians would join under the current rules? Or the Japanese? There may be economical upsides sure. But with the world the way it is FOM, monetary union, federalism, EU armies etc. may be more than many would want to pay. Better to negotiate a simple FTA with EU and be done.

 

[Honest John]

But you owe them money for previous obligations. Just because you made some analogy about a worker and their employer doesn't make it accurate here. It's more like if you sign legally binding contracts with a company that state you have to invest a certain amount of money over time, under the agreement that you won't be leaving, and then you decide to leave, you still have to pay those investments. You can't just decide to feck off without doing so, that's not how the world works.

I agree the £39 is owed and should be paid. I wanted Mays deal to be accepted. All the other WA elements are no problem rights of citizen. The problem lies with the border question and May can't get it through the house. She is not going rip up the UK Parliamentary rules, sack the ERG or any of those bizzare things that many on here think should happen. So she is asking for help to get this over the line.

Then, the FTA will be negotiated and everyone and his dog knows that it won't be the same as staying in.

The Tories are not asking for the same as 'staying in' they are asking for a close relationship.

Labour are only asking for the same as 'staying in' because they want to score political points.

You don't really believe that anyone in the Labour party truly believes that any deal other than staying in is going to be the same as staying in do you?

She needs something that commands a majority in the house. At the moment she's pinning her hopes on negotiating some movement on the backstop.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Demand is a bit strong. When did I demand that? And if you read what I have said then I readily accept that the UK will need to take a long hard look at itself after all this. What you seem to be devoid of is any concept at all that the current plan is flawed and may need to be reviewed. Or do you think the EU is working?

I mean where else on this planet is the EU model being duplicated? Do you think the Australians would join under the current rules? Or the Japanese? There may be economical upsides sure. But with the world the way it is FOM, monetary union, federalism, EU armies etc. may be more than many would want to pay. Better to negotiate a simple FTA with EU and be done.

There was FOM in 1975. The UK has not adopted nor would have had to adopt the Euro and there is no federalism or EU army.
A simple FTA with the EU will be a catastrophe for the UK.

If the UK were situated on the other side of the world why would it want to join the EU. The geographical location is very important.

 

[JPRouve]

Demand is a bit strong. When did I demand that? And if you read what I have said then I readily accept that the UK will need to take a long hard look at itself after all this. What you seem to be devoid of is any concept at all that the current plan is flawed and may need to be reviewed. Or do you think the EU is working?

I mean where else on this planet is the EU model being duplicated? Do you think the Australians would join under the current rules? Or the Japanese? There may be economical upsides sure. But with the world the way it is FOM, monetary union, federalism, EU armies etc. may be more than many would want to pay. Better to negotiate a simple FTA with EU and be done.

I said in this very page that the EU wasn't perfect and should improve and evolve, which has always been the case by the way. As for the second question it's borderline shocking, you basically show that you have no idea about the reason why the ECSC was created and I invite you to read the preamble of the Treaty of Rome, think about what links France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Netherland and Luxemburg in 1957. Also, you are not part of the monetary Union, there is no EU army, no federalism and you joined something that existed for two decades, if you didn't like it then, you shouldn't have join it.

 

[Honest John]

There was FOM in 1975. The UK has not adopt nor would have had to adopt the Euro and there is no federalism or EU army.
A simple FTA with the UK will be a catastrophe for the UK.

If the UK were situated on the other side of the world why would it want to join the EU. The geographical location is very important.

In 1975 FOM did not involve 500 million people from countries that were not economically up to the task when being accepted into the block. There was no concept of what FOM meant or could possible mean. And it is disingenuous for you to assume that knowledge of the intricacies every element of the union the UK was signing up to should have been as well known as the bloody alphabet. It wasn't and nor could it have conceivably been. You can't stand there and say that the UK should have known what it was getting itself into. Could you have predicted the fall of the Berlin wall then?

 

[caid]

I think there has been introspection. I dont think the conclusions of it are that helpful to the British. I think its mostly focused minds on the benefits and on the poor standard of british politicians primarily.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

In 1975 FOM did not involve 500 million people from countries that were not economically up to the task when being accepted into the block. There was no concept of what FOM meant or could possible mean. And it is disingenuous for you to assume that knowledge of the intricacies every element of the union the UK was signing up to should have been as well known as the bloody alphabet. It wasn't and nor could it have conceivably been. You can't stand there and say that the UK should have known what it was getting itself into. Could you have predicted the fall of the Berlin wall then?

500 million people who are not up to the task? No concept of what FoM means? What the hell are you saying?
Sounds as if it's East Germans you don't like.

If people don't know even the basics of what they're voting for, they shouldn't vote.

 

[Honest John]

I think there has been introspection. I dont think the conclusions of it are that helpful to the British. I think its mostly focused minds on the benefits and on the poor standard of british politicians primarily.

This seems to be a contradiction

 

[Abizzz]

People banging on about European introspection after 2 years of British mess is even more ironic than people calling themselves honest and hiding behind "devils advocate".


I weep for you Brits who have to put up with millions of these. Good luck.

 

[Honest John]

500 million people who are not up to the task? No concept of what FoM means? What the hell are you saying?
Sounds as if it's East Germans you don't like.

If people don't know even the basics of what they're voting for, they shouldn't vote.

Nothing to do with who I Like. But if you let countries in that are not economically ready and then tell them 'you are in, you can go wherever you like'. Where are they going to go? This would be less of the case if those country's had genuinely achieved the required economic standards.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I mean where else on this planet is the EU model being duplicated? Do you think the Australians would join under the current rules? Or the Japanese? There may be economical upsides sure. But with the world the way it is FOM, monetary union, federalism, EU armies etc. may be more than many would want to pay. Better to negotiate a simple FTA with EU and be done.

I think you should probably look up the history of Europe, particularly the 1910's and 1940's.

 

[caid]

This seems to be a contradiction

It might seem it, but its relevant - the politicians you've sent to europe in recent years have been the likes of Nigel Farage, David Davis and Dominic Raab. People who added nothing of value and have just disrupted business. You've become an obstacle to the running of the union. I think the conclusion that we probably need to go our own way for some period of time is fair.
You dont object to any of the actual policies of the EU, you haven't exposed any serious flaws. The likes of a billion turks invading has a solution - one country rejects their admission. The reason Poles or East Germans or whatever wasn't used as an example of a foreign invasion is because their not exotic enough to be a good boogeyman, people dont have any real issue with them. Which probably shows the sense and value of admitting them in the first place. You've shown that an incompetent and hostile national government can be a problem ... but I think we already knew that.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Nothing to do with who I Like. But if you let countries in that are not economically ready and then tell them 'you are in, you can go wherever you like'. Where are they going to go? This would be less of the case if those country's had genuinely achieved the required economic standards.

Which countries are you talking about? The sick man of Europe in 1973, the UK? . Most of the 500Million are made of the large countries and most were there before the UK. Or some of the eastern European countries of very small populations
Who decided to let these countries in, some faceless bureaucrat or did the UK have a say. Most of these countries are the fastest growers in the EU. Better all together, as the UK will find out quite soon.
Who are you objecting to having freedom of movement?

The only period in recent history that the Uk haven't had freedom of movement was between 1962 and 1973 because before the EC/EU there was the United Kingdom and Colonies citizens until 1962 until the UK didn't want them either.

 

[Buster15]

Rumours going around Chuka is resigning from Labour at 8pm and with the intention of starting a new centrist party.

He went down in my estimation when he pulled out of the last Labour leadership race.

I know he said that he had valid reason for doing that but he must have known the outcome.

Nevertheless I would support him if he can put together a meaningful setup as I would struggle to back a party lead by Corbyn.

 

[Mb194dc]

I'll be surprised if Brexit actually happens as part of this process. It's a total shambles. Still the same options as December.

Europe, the UK and the world going to face fairly severe economic issues over the next couple of years imo. That is likely to drive changes in the EU and the especially the EMU. Very hard to predict how things will play out but it's unlikely to be good in the short / medium term.

 

[GloryHunter07]

This is like an ITK transfer rumour

 

[Buster15]

You wont find 0.44% of British people who know what the Uk's trading arrangements are.

I'd be surprised if 0.044% of British people know how international trade works.

But the country have decided to take their advice.

Paul.
I fully understand that you don't agree with the decision to leave the EU and I also understand that you are not particularly impressed with the way the UK government are handling the leaving process.
Me and a lot of people would say here here to that view.

However, it is not good form for you to belittle British people's intelligence.
Am I right that you studied International Law at University.
That being the case, I am sure that you are something of an expert.

But it would be wrong to compare your knowledge with the average man or woman in the street.
Of course the average person would not understand such a complex subject.

I was an aero engineer but I would not expect most of the people who fly on an aeroplane to understand how the engines work.

 

[sun_tzu]

This is like an ITK transfer rumour

JRM to relaunch the Whig party

 

[Abizzz]

JRM to relaunch the Whig party

Why would he? He has Britain's largest party by the balls...

 

[Untied]

He went down in my estimation when he pulled out of the last Labour leadership race.

I know he said that he had valid reason for doing that but he must have known the outcome.

Nevertheless I would support him if he can put together a meaningful setup as I would struggle to back a party lead by Corbyn.

Which of Chuka's policies do you like?

When he opposed a second referendum? Or when he supported leaving the single market to end freedom of movement?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Paul.
I fully understand that you don't agree with the decision to leave the EU and I also understand that you are not particularly impressed with the way the UK government are handling the leaving process.
Me and a lot of people would say here here to that view.

However, it is not good form for you to belittle British people's intelligence.
Am I right that you studied International Law at University.
That being the case, I am sure that you are something of an expert.

But it would be wrong to compare your knowledge with the average man or woman in the street.
Of course the average person would not understand such a complex subject.

I was an aero engineer but I would not expect most of the people who fly on an aeroplane to understand how the engines work.

I don't expect them to know. I'm not belittling their intelligence in that sense. Cheering for a no deal when they haven't got a clue what it means is stupid beyond belief.

I haven't a clue about aero engineering or flying but no-one's going to ask me to design a plane or even worse to fly it.

How can they be asked to decide something they know very little about.

 

[Buster15]

Which of Chuka's policies do you like?

When he opposed a second referendum? Or when he supported leaving the single market to end freedom of movement?

I completely disagree with the need for a second referendum.
It is a stupid idea.

 

[Buster15]

I don't expect them to know. I'm not belittling their intelligence in that sense. Cheering for a no deal when they haven't got a clue what it means is stupid beyond belief.

I haven't a clue about aero engineering or flying but no-one's going to ask me to design a plane or even worse to fly it.

How can they be asked to decide something they know very little about.

I would agree that cheering for a no deal is in my opinion stupid even if they had a clue what it could mean.

But. That is the nature of democracy isn't it.
You don't just ask those who have an understanding of the issues. You ask everybody and then try to explain the issues.
And this is the same in every democracy.

I have spoken to people who voted to leave and I struggle to understand their logic.
But their vote is just as relevant as anyone else.
By the way I have also spoken to people who voted remain and their logic is equally strange.

Jacob R Mogg is undoubtedly extremely intelligent and highly educated and yet he would be perfectly happy with a no deal leave. He would probably think my opposite view stupid.
Democracy is far from perfect, but....

Don't worry. If you fly with Rolls-Royce engines you will be ok.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I would agree that cheering for a no deal is in my opinion stupid even if they had a clue what it could mean.

But. That is the nature of democracy isn't it.
You don't just ask those who have an understanding of the issues. You ask everybody and then try to explain the issues.
And this is the same in every democracy.

I have spoken to people who voted to leave and I struggle to understand their logic.
But their vote is just as relevant as anyone else.
By the way I have also spoken to people who voted remain and their logic is equally strange.

Jacob R Mogg is undoubtedly extremely intelligent and highly educated and yet he would be perfectly happy with a no deal leave. He would probably think my opposite view stupid.
Democracy is far from perfect, but....

Don't worry. If you fly with Rolls-Royce engines you will be ok.

That is why I'm totally against referenda, fortunately there are not many in the Uk or France. There's democracy and direct democracy.
Having said that, the incompetence of the politicians leads one to despair, however, there should be people in the background advising the politicians.

JRM will be perfectly to happy to leave with no deal, it will be very profitable for him. He knows little about international trade but he can convince the public he does because they don't know if he's telling the truth or not.

Do not put me in charge of a plane no matter what engines it has.

 

[Stanley Road]

Nothing to do with who I Like. But if you let countries in that are not economically ready and then tell them 'you are in, you can go wherever you like'. Where are they going to go? This would be less of the case if those country's had genuinely achieved the required economic standards.

Spot on. They go to western and north western eu countries. The ones with less skills but speak English , end up in the uk. Tje smarter guys follow the salary scale.

 

[Buster15]

That is why I'm totally against referenda, fortunately there are not many in the Uk or France. There's democracy and direct democracy.
Having said that, the incompetence of the politicians leads one to despair, however, there should be people in the background advising the politicians.

JRM will be perfectly to happy to leave with no deal, it will be very profitable for him. He knows little about international trade but he can convince the public he does because they don't know if he's telling the truth or not.

Do not put me in charge of a plane no matter what engines it has.

I am certainly not an advocate of JRM but having looked at wiki, he did have a pretty successfully career in finance before he became an MP.

Not international trade, but not that far removed.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I am certainly not an advocate of JRM but having looked at wiki, he did have a pretty successfully career in finance before he became an MP.

Not international trade, but not that far removed.

In finance for sure he knows what he's doing and that's where he's going to make his money.
International trade is my speciality and he doesn't know that much, I assure you.

 

[GloryHunter07]

So what was the 8pm announcement @Sweet Square