Ander Herrera vs N'golo Kanté | Thread has gone well

[JPRouve]

I guess this comes down to do you consider Kante a conservative player? I don't think so, I think his ball winning mentality makes people think he's a defensive player but I think he is very aggressive in his own way and not someone who would hold position and shield a backline.

Kanté is a defensive player though, that's where he shines and excels. The particularity of Kanté is that he stifles the opposition, he isn't a "container" but that doesn't make him not defensive and not conservative because Kanté in his ideal role is very aware of his positioning and his duties, he doesn't go out of it much and will always make sure that he is doing his part.
Essentially our disagreement will be with the idea that a conservative player is only someone that hold a position in front of the backline.

 

[BridgeBanter]

The role pogba plays with France is entirely different to what he could do during a full premier league season.

The Leicester season is such an outlier and even there, he had Drinkwater who was much less adventurous than anyone he's since played with.

The mere fact that Kante was a cornerstone piece of such a freak “outlier” isn’t a coincidence.

The way I see it is such; as someone pointed out, Ander has great passing, vision, touch and tremendous tenacity all around for the role he plays.

On the other hand, Kante’s positioning, anticipation, tackling and his overall engine make him arguably the best in his position. The same can’t be said for Ander.

 

[POF]

Kante is a better specislist. His energy, ability to press and win the ball is absolutely top class. There are very few better than him at what he does well. But that's about it for him. He is a limited footballer and his attacking output is low.

Herrera is much more of an all rounder. He can play multiple positions to a good standard including some of the most unusual hybrid roles I've ever seen anyone operate in under Mourinho. He is a threat offensively, is better at linking the play and is far more versatile than Kante.

The fact that Kante has made an extremely minor move in position under Sarri and everyone is acting like he's been playing in goal shows his lack of versatility.

Which is better depends on the team they are in. As an option in a squad Herrera is better. As a specialist when playing next to players who complement his style, Kante is more valuable.

 

[Canagel]

I like Herrera but he's not on the Kante level.

 

[golden_blunder]

I would gladly have Kante in the matic role when matic is goosed

 

[Rozay]

Think this is yet another case of individuals being assessed in light of their team’s overall success. Something I mention often, but Kanté has won 2 league titles and a World Cup in the last couple of years. That accentuates a player’s positives massively.

I’m not saying he isn’t a fantastic player. He may well even be better than Herrera. But there certainly isn’t much between them, in fact, I’d personally prefer Ander. I think the gap between them in terms of public opinion is based on their respective recent fortunes. Herrera who has been a regular in two league winning teams will be held in a higher regard.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Kanté is a defensive player though, that's where he shines and excels. The particularity of Kanté is that he stifles the opposition, he isn't a "container" but that doesn't make him not defensive and not conservative because Kanté in his ideal role is very aware of his positioning and his duties, he doesn't go out of it much and will always make sure that he is doing his part.
Essentially our disagreement will be with the idea that a conservative player is only someone that hold a position in front of the backline.

Kante is a box to box ball winner. What used to be called a 'combative midfielder'. That is why personally I can't understand the notion that he is currently 'out of position' at Chelsea. The only real change in his role is he is now licensed to concentrate on operating much higher up the pitch. Then to get back and support the regista. Yet much higher up pitch there are less balls to intercept and less to tackles to make. Thus he gets to see more of the ball and gets to indulge in attacking more.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Kante is a better specislist. His energy, ability to press and win the ball is absolutely top class. There are very few better than him at what he does well. But that's about it for him. He is a limited footballer and his attacking output is low.

Herrera is much more of an all rounder. He can play multiple positions to a good standard including some of the most unusual hybrid roles I've ever seen anyone operate in under Mourinho. He is a threat offensively, is better at linking the play and is far more versatile than Kante.

The fact that Kante has made an extremely minor move in position under Sarri and everyone is acting like he's been playing in goal shows his lack of versatility.

Which is better depends on the team they are in. As an option in a squad Herrera is better. As a specialist when playing next to players who complement his style, Kante is more valuable.

I swear. Im convinced if Barkley and Kovavcic where doing their jobs on the opposite side of that midfield triangle, Sarri, Kante and Jorginho would be getting praise to the highest heavens.....

 

[JPRouve]

Kante is a box to box ball winner. What used to be called a 'combative midfielder'. That is why personally I can't understand the notion that he is currently 'out of position' at Chelsea. The only real change in his role is he is now licensed to concentrate on operating much higher up the pitch. Then to get back and support the regista. Yet much higher up pitch there are less balls to intercept and less to tackles to make. Thus he gets to see more of the ball and gets to indulge in attacking more.

And that's where we disagree, to me he is out of position because while he is a box to box, he is the defensive type. Like Allan he should mainly play slightly deeper and be the main man during transition, at the moment he is too high and has too much creative responsibilities. The way I see it it's the midfield as a unit that is a mess, with all the roles badly tuned, Kanté should be the defensive box to box, Kovacic/Barkley the attacking box to box and Jorginho the regista.

 

[Tibs]

We should try and sign Kante and play with him and Herrera either side of Pogba. If he cost anywhere up to £60m its money well spent

-------- Big Dave ----------

RB - CB - Lindelof - Shaw

Herrera - Pogba - Kante

- RW - Rashford - Martial

Solid

 

[PepsiCola]

Herrera brings a lot more to the side than just his footballing ability.

 

[BridgeBanter]

Think this is yet another case of individuals being assessed in light of their team’s overall success. Something I mention often, but Kanté has won 2 league titles and a World Cup in the last couple of years. That accentuates a player’s positives massively.

I’m not saying he isn’t a fantastic player. He may well even be better than Herrera. But there certainly isn’t much between them, in fact, I’d personally prefer Ander. I think the gap between them in terms of public opinion is based on their respective recent fortunes. Herrera who has been a regular in two league winning teams will be held in a higher regard.

This argument is bonkers to me.

Kante is a significant reason why those two teams won the titles they did. It is indicative of his prowess and ability in his role, and how it positively translated to team success.

The team winning is not what accentuates his ability, it’s his significant contributions to a winning team which does.

 

[Rozay]

This argument is bonkers to me.

Kante is a significant reason why those two teams won the titles they did. It is indicative of his prowess and ability in his role, and how it positively translated to team success.

The team winning is not what accentuates his ability, it’s his significant contributions to a winning team which does.

A player can have a significant contribution to a team that does not win. If that is the case, chances are your achievement will not be remembered as much. Kanté is a fabulous player, but the fact that his contribution got the silverware you could argue it ‘deserved’ has increased his standing. This is near enough football fact, and there is an obvious correlation between team success and individual appreciation over the years.

This doesn’t mean Kanté is not good, but the point is only one set of great players can be on the winning team.

 

[Coxy]

Think this is yet another case of individuals being assessed in light of their team’s overall success. Something I mention often, but Kanté has won 2 league titles and a World Cup in the last couple of years. That accentuates a player’s positives massively.

I’m not saying he isn’t a fantastic player. He may well even be better than Herrera. But there certainly isn’t much between them, in fact, I’d personally prefer Ander. I think the gap between them in terms of public opinion is based on their respective recent fortunes. Herrera who has been a regular in two league winning teams will be held in a higher regard.

Why has this this thread reared it’s ugly head again?

Herrera is a great player for us, and for me should be Captain. But Kante is clearly a far superior player (but very different style too).

Here’s hoping he continues to be used incorrectly at Chelsea and he wants to leave in the Summer...and we can play both of them with Pogba

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

And that's where we disagree, to me he is out of position because while he is a box to box, he is the defensive type. Like Allan he should mainly play slightly deeper and be the main man during transition, at the moment he is too high and has too much creative responsibilities. The way I see it it's the midfield as a unit that is a mess, with all the roles badly tuned, Kanté should be the defensive box to box, Kovacic/Barkley the attacking box to box and Jorginho the regista.

the thing is Kovavcic and Barkley are doing dog shit. That is why the midfield looks a mess. Kane is supposed to be that high to help win the ball higher, and to increase room for Jorginho to operate in. He has only seemingly taken on extra attacking responsibility because Kovavcic and Barkley are literally abdicating theirs. He is literally playing like Allan did whilst those doing the Hamisik role are offering zilch. Forcing Kante to do more than his brief.

 

[JPRouve]

the thing is Kovavcic and Barkley are doing dog shit. That is why the midfield looks a mess. Kane is supposed to be that high to help win the ball higher, and to increase room for Jorginho to operate in. He has only seemingly taken on extra attacking responsibility because Kovavcic and Barkley are literally abdicating theirs. He is literally playing like Allan did whilst those doing the Hamisik role are offering zilch. Forcing Kante to do more than his brief.

Clearly we are seeing the same thing, I just added that personally I believe that Kanté isn't supposed to do as much as he is currently doing which sometimes puts him personally out of his optimal role. The midfield being a mess isn't his doing, it's mainly due to the other players not doing their jobs.

 

[POF]

I swear. Im convinced if Barkley and Kovavcic where doing their jobs on the opposite side of that midfield triangle, Sarri, Kante and Jorginho would be getting praise to the highest heavens.....

I agree that if they had Pogba on the left of the 3 playing like he does currently at United, they would be winning games and nobody would care.

On paper Kante plays the same role as Herrera at United but Chelsea's 3 seem more symmetrical whereas United's 3 are intentionally unbalanced with Herrera on the right having a different role to Pogba on the left.

I think Kante would be better slightly deeper because he's just too limited a player to have much attacking responsibility. I think Jorginho would benefit from that too.

 

[Ekeke]

the thing is Kovavcic and Barkley are doing dog shit. That is why the midfield looks a mess. Kane is supposed to be that high to help win the ball higher, and to increase room for Jorginho to operate in. He has only seemingly taken on extra attacking responsibility because Kovavcic and Barkley are literally abdicating theirs. He is literally playing like Allan did whilst those doing the Hamisik role are offering zilch. Forcing Kante to do more than his brief.

You say that but its Kante his manager is calling out. Firstly he said he tried to do too much himself and most recently he complained that he doesnt move the ball fast enough

I agree that Kovacic is the worse performer, but its Kante's style of play thats annoying his manager and attracting the comments from him

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

You say that but its Kante his manager is calling out. Firstly he said he tried to do too much himself and most recently he complained that he doesnt move the ball fast enough

I agree that Kovacic is the worse performer, but its Kante's style of play thats annoying his manager and attracting the comments from him

Truth be told I can't speak for Sarri's opinion. I'm just going of what I see from Chelsea, and what I know of 'Sarri ball' from Napoli. Even if Jorginho and Kante moved the ball faster, the fact Kovavcic and Barkley are doing nothing in the Hamsik role, Chelsea are stuck with predictable and ineffective dominance of possession. Resulting in the striker and the two wingers getting inadequate supply and poor final balls

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Clearly we are seeing the same thing, I just added that personally I believe that Kanté isn't supposed to do as much as he is currently doing which sometimes puts him personally out of his optimal role. The midfield being a mess isn't his doing, it's mainly due to the other players not doing their jobs.

fair enough

 

[Ekeke]

Truth be told I can't speak for Sarri's opinion. I'm just going of what I see from Chelsea, and what I know of 'Sarri ball' from Napoli. Even if Jorginho and Kante moved the ball faster, the fact Kovavcic and Barkley are doing nothing in the Hamsik role, Chelsea are stuck with predictable and ineffective dominance of possession. Resulting in the striker and the two wingers getting inadequate supply and poor final balls

Yep and Sarri can obviously be wrong.

But these are the things he says, placing blame on Kante and I dont think I've heard anything about him blaming Barkley or Kovacic, presumably because they move the ball quicker and he thinks thats the most important thing.

So its Kante's style that is causing some issues with the coach even if statistically (and in our opinions) he's playing better than Kovacic. Obviously we know this isnt his best position so I'm not sure what Sarri is expecting. Perhaps the scapegoating is to look towards offloading or replacing Kante in the lineup in the next window if he survives that long with a player who will move the ball faster.