Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

oates said:
Yeah, after you'd called me a prick there couldn't be another reason why I ignored you? Sweet. I think you've misunderstood definitely. :lol:

I've never used the Ignore feature but I'm thinking there might be a use for it. Perhaps we could just ignore each other eh? And stop taking the thread off topic?
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Ignore him, @oates , you wont be missing out on much. :rolleyes:
 
oates said:
To me there seems to be a problem with this idea. The idea that to treat someone fairly a country has to introduce new law after the event which would be in itself, unfair.

If the Justice System cannot introduce evidence suitable to punish the defendant with the crimes she is supposedly to have committed under the beliefs of the mob then that would be the Justice Systems problem.

It seems to me that she is being accused of crimes without name, assumed crimes. Crimes which the mob are unhappy she will not be charged with until some supposed Acts of Parliament can introduce after the event.

Hmm. Isn't this the sort of thing that happens in a country that is not the UK.

Joining a terrorist organisation - tick. Now, whatever else you want to accuse her of then name it and supply proof. I'm all for her facing justice but it has to be...well..justice.
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I was wondering what actual crimes she has allegedly committed? It also strikes me that contries like Australia and the UK who are making people stateless on the pretense they have another nationality - usually a theoretical entitlement through descent - are acting illegally.

I know we all want to minimise the number of cnuts in our countries but surely the rule of law is more important?
 
Wibble said:
I was wondering what actual crimes she has allegedly committed? It also strikes me that contries like Australia and the UK who are making people stateless on the pretense they have another nationality - usually a theoretical entitlement through descent - are acting illegally.

I know we all want to minimise the number of cnuts in our countries but surely the rule of law is more important?
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It's my thinking too. I can't help feeling that all we know so far is what this girl has said. That she wanted to join this terrible organisation, to marry a fighter and have children. That this alone is against our laws and damning enough but that there's this temptation to attempt to divine the possibilities and probabilities that she did even worse. In a way she seems to be the sole or maybe one of a few so far to earn our ire and crushing despite.

My thoughts are that she is being made a scapegoat at present and until we know there is evidence of more there's a terrible desire in some of us to punish her enough for all of the ones who went to join. While there are up to 400 who have returned to the UK it's almost vicious in the outcry to judge her and risks something none of us would want by making her into a martyr.

Sajid Javid stood up in the House of Commons and declared that out of those who have returned only a few are of low risk and the rest of none. Makes me wonder how he can be so sure but doesn't inform us when or even if these returnees would face British Justice, or what that could be but with the current attempt to deny Begum her citizenship perhaps that is one available option but to my mind that would be passing our issues off, lumping them on some other country.
 
Seems that one Lord Goldsmith proposed a "thorough reform and rationalisation of the law" of treason about 11 years ago. Seems like someone should have listened to him back then because joining a terrorist organization that fights your own country is very treasonous.
 
Wibble said:
I was wondering what actual crimes she has allegedly committed? It also strikes me that contries like Australia and the UK who are making people stateless on the pretense they have another nationality - usually a theoretical entitlement through descent - are acting illegally.

I know we all want to minimise the number of cnuts in our countries but surely the rule of law is more important?
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I believe that supporting terrorists is the same as being a terrorist. I believe that this girl poses at least some kind of danger, at the very least we know how she will raise her child and what beliefs she will instil in it. And my honest feeling is that I dont want her here. I think she made her bed, and she should lie it. That being said the more I think about it, the more I cant help but think that she needs to be allowed back. Not for her sake, but for ours. A justice system that treats the wicked fairly and without contempt is needed if the innocent are to have any shot at justice. So while this girl might have done the very worst things a person can do, she needs to be held to account by due process and not by mob rule or to gain public favour.

Someone else mentioned that there maybe no laws that she has broken and there may be some new ones being written just for this situation and to hit her with. I cant believe that that should be allowed. Those that write these laws should have done so when she and others left. Not write them now for public favour and to seek retroactive action against people. I shudder to think where that would end.
 
Reddy Rederson said:
I believe that supporting terrorists is the same as being a terrorist. I believe that this girl poses at least some kind of danger, at the very least we know how she will raise her child and what beliefs she will instil in it. And my honest feeling is that I dont want her here. I think she made her bed, and she should lie it. That being said the more I think about it, the more I cant help but think that she needs to be allowed back. Not for her sake, but for ours. A justice system that treats the wicked fairly and without contempt is needed if the innocent are to have any shot at justice. So while this girl might have done the very worst things a person can do, she needs to be held to account by due process and not by mob rule or to gain public favour.

Someone else mentioned that there maybe no laws that she has broken and there may be some new ones being written just for this situation and to hit her with. I cant believe that that should be allowed. Those that write these laws should have done so when she and others left. Not write them now for public favour and to seek retroactive action against people. I shudder to think where that would end.
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This would be great if our justice system treated the wicked fairly but it doesn’t. Trust me I know, my family has been on the receiving end of some horrendous British “justice” (as victims,not criminals I might add). I have no faith in it whatsoever. That’s why I’m more inclined to leave her to rot where she is.
 
Reddy Rederson said:
I believe that supporting terrorists is the same as being a terrorist. I believe that this girl poses at least some kind of danger, at the very least we know how she will raise her child and what beliefs she will instil in it. And my honest feeling is that I dont want her here. I think she made her bed, and she should lie it. That being said the more I think about it, the more I cant help but think that she needs to be allowed back. Not for her sake, but for ours. A justice system that treats the wicked fairly and without contempt is needed if the innocent are to have any shot at justice. So while this girl might have done the very worst things a person can do, she needs to be held to account by due process and not by mob rule or to gain public favour.

Someone else mentioned that there maybe no laws that she has broken and there may be some new ones being written just for this situation and to hit her with. I cant believe that that should be allowed. Those that write these laws should have done so when she and others left. Not write them now for public favour and to seek retroactive action against people. I shudder to think where that would end.
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It isn't the same thing at all. Not that supporting terrorism is good but the person who puts 5 bucks in a bucket at a NORAID fund raiser in NY may morally have blood on their hands but that is a whole different thing than pulling the trigger that were indirectly funded by the $5. Part of the problem -yes. Exactly the same - no.

And if she has broken the law then a fair and open trial in the UK will show how a democracy deals with things. Making people stateless to stop it being our problem isn't legally or morally supportable imo.
 
Wibble said:
It isn't the same thing at all. Not that supporting terrorism is good but the person who puts 5 bucks in a bucket at a NORAID fund raiser in NY may morally have blood on their hands but that is a whole different thing than pulling the trigger that were indirectly funded by the $5. Part of the problem -yes. Exactly the same - no.

And if she has broken the law then a fair and open trial in the UK will show how a democracy deals with things. Making people stateless to stop it being our problem isn't legally or morally supportable imo.
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I’m gonna guess you didn’t read much past that first sentence.

But as to your first sentence, paedeophiles who watch videos and look at pictures aren’t directly contributing to child abuse going by your logic. Without the money paid by those that “only” look at videos and pictures there would be no market, without the market there would be no videos or pictures. In that same regard, a terrorist organisation doesn’t get money it can’t buy guns, without guns it can’t arm soldiers, if it can’t arm soldiers it’s just a bunch of angry people with clenched fists and sore throats. But she didn’t just give them money, she gave them support. She’s no different than the guy holding the video camera. She might not have been in gun battles or planting bombs, but she gave physical and emotional aid to terrorists. And by the sounds of things being said about these isis brides she may have done much more than that.

As to your second paragraph, read the rest of my first post. You’ll find my opinion is the same as yours.
 
Tin foil hats at the ready:

Now there are numerous reports about people wanting to return home from these situations they have found themselves in and they all seem to have very similar stories, thoughts and feelings.

Now ISIS are reportedly on their last legs and are struggling.

Could this be a last ditch attempt to get people into western societies to either try mass recruit or even worse co-ordinate attacks as a last feck you?
 
Marcelinho87 said:
Tin foil hats at the ready:

Now there are numerous reports about people wanting to return home from these situations they have found themselves in and they all seem to have very similar stories, thoughts and feelings.

Now ISIS are reportedly on their last legs and are struggling.

Could this be a last ditch attempt to get people into western societies to either try mass recruit or even worse co-ordinate attacks as a last feck you?
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And doing it so blatantly when they have previously managed to evade international intelligence agencies to commit attacks in Europe is how they’ve gone about it?

Give me a break, it’s obvious individuals are aware of the traction Shamima’s case has got in the media and decided to capitalize on that themselves.
 
Marcelinho87 said:
Tin foil hats at the ready:

Now there are numerous reports about people wanting to return home from these situations they have found themselves in and they all seem to have very similar stories, thoughts and feelings.

Now ISIS are reportedly on their last legs and are struggling.

Could this be a last ditch attempt to get people into western societies to either try mass recruit or even worse co-ordinate attacks as the last feck you?
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Tin foil hats at the ready:

Maybe there are similar cases, as repulsive as they are, they didn't get traction because the whole nation was not walking into a catastrophe in a matter of weeks? Pretty transparent to me to me.
 
Marcelinho87 said:
Tin foil hats at the ready:

Now there are numerous reports about people wanting to return home from these situations they have found themselves in and they all seem to have very similar stories, thoughts and feelings.

Now ISIS are reportedly on their last legs and are struggling.

Could this be a last ditch attempt to get people into western societies to either try mass recruit or even worse co-ordinate attacks as a last feck you?
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I'm not sure they're necessarily recruiting or planning something, I think its just a bunch of men/women who probably still believe in the ideology but not enough to want to die and are trying to make it back to Western societies, where they know they'll face jail at worst rather than try their luck in Syria, where they know justice, if its served, will likely be brutal, especially if they fall into Assad's hands. I'd imagine probably a reasonable chance the SDF would have been a bit more heavy handed if they didn't have the world's eyes on the situation.

Amazing how many of the ones being caught now were nothing more than butchers, engineers, doctors, city planners etc. :wenger:
 
Carolina Red said:
How do you stop her from becoming a recruiter once brought back though?

Does the whole “deradicalization” bit actually work? And how can you tell that they’re not just saying what the therapists want to hear?
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Well if she's prosecuted she'll face the legal system, which the whole focus of is rehabilitation. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't but it's the correct thing to do. How do you stop a murderer from killing again once they're released? The long and short is that you can't, you just trust in the legal system and deal with hypotheticals as and when they occur.
 
Carolina Red said:
That’s exactly how a life sentence with no parole works. Not to mention capital punishment.
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Capital punishment is a farce, not to mention a drain on resources and more expensive than life in prison. My gran used to work for an initiative to get those on death row representation they never had access to or could afford, and quite a few were found to be innocent which is truly scary.

But that's by the by, most life sentences are not life sentences. 10-20 years at most and then release, so given that as a population we seem to be okay with that, then the question of 'how do you de-radicalize them' is comparable to the same way we deal with murderers and rapists.
 
Zarlak said:
Capital punishment is a farce, not to mention a drain on resources and more expensive than life in prison. My gran used to work for an initiative to get those on death row representation they never had access to or could afford, and quite a few were found to be innocent which is truly scary.

But that's by the by, most life sentences are not life sentences. 10-20 years at most and then release, so given that as a population we seem to be okay with that, then the question of 'how do you de-radicalize them' is comparable to the same way we deal with murderers and rapists.
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What country are you talking about?
 
Carolina Red said:
I was wondering. Life without parole in the US is definitely different.

You all should just establish your own Gitmo for all the ISIS defectors.
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I don't know too much about the US prison system, but my impression was always that the focus there is punishment over rehabilitation which is the wrong way to go about it when you look at other countries focusing on rehabilitation first. All I know about the US prison system (admittedly not a great deal) is all bad, and comes off terribly even when discussed in the US.
 
Zarlak said:
I don't know too much about the US prison system, but my impression was always that the focus there is punishment over rehabilitation which is the wrong way to go about it when you look at other countries focusing on rehabilitation first. All I know about the US prison system (admittedly not a great deal) is all bad, and comes off terribly even when discussed in the US.
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At least their sentences are proper. Murder someone get 50 years. Rape someone get 40 years. Here in the Uk the justice system is a joke. We seem to be more worried about offending people.
 
Stookie said:
At least their sentences are proper. Murder someone get 50 years. Rape someone get 40 years. Here in the Uk the justice system is a joke. We seem to be more worried about offending people.
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One grave mistake and you spend your whole life in slave labour, what a great system!

Despicable as her views are, are they that much different to a white supremacist who believe the ‘colored’ folks should piss off pronto? People holding both set of ideas are equally likely to commit terrorist acts, or, statistically in the US, the white supremacists are actually more likely to carry out hate crimes.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
One grave mistake and you spend your whole life in slave labour, what a great system!

Despicable as her views are, are they that much different to a white supremacist who believe the ‘colored’ folks should piss off pronto? People holding both set of ideas are equally likely to commit terrorist acts, or, statistically in the US, the white supremacists are actually more likely to carry out hate crimes.
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Depends what that grave mistake is no?
 
Stookie said:
Depends what that grave mistake is no?
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A teenager killing someone in a gang shooting would get that 50 years.

I don’t believe the vast majority of murderers and rapists are Jack the Ripper level of evil. We all have that capability for cruelty and violence, most don’t ever commit that but cut the electricity and water supply for a month and the number would rise exponentially.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
A teenager killing someone in a gang shooting would get that 50 years.

I don’t believe the vast majority of murderers and rapists are Jack the Ripper level of evil. We all have that capability for cruelty and violence, most don’t ever commit that but cut the electricity and water supply for a month and the number would rise exponentially.
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You’re preaching to the wrong person here. I’m pretty sure if a member of your family was murdered you’d want life to mean life. Not life and then get out in 10 years. I’m saying sentences in the Uk. are incredibly soft.
 
Stookie said:
You’re preaching to the wrong person here. I’m pretty sure if a member of your family was murdered you’d want life to mean life. Not life and then get out in 10 years. I’m saying sentences in the Uk. are incredibly soft.
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My uncle was a drug addict, got AIDS and pretty much in his last years destroyed the life prospect of his son. Vietnam has one of the most draconian set of laws on drug trafficking, including the death sentence, and I very much disagree with them.

Obviously I can’t say for certain how I’d react if someone close to me has fallen victim to a fatal armed robbery, for instance, but the point is to suppress the baser desire for vengeance and punishment in favour of something more logical. We no longer geld rapists and chopping hands off for thievery, after all.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
My uncle was a drug addict, got AIDS and pretty much in his last years destroyed the life prospect of his son. Vietnam has one of the most draconian set of laws on drug trafficking, including the death sentence, and I very much disagree with them.

Obviously I can’t say for certain how I’d react if someone close to me has fallen victim to a fatal armed robbery, for instance, but the point is to suppress the baser desire for vengeance and punishment in favour of something more logical. We no longer geld rapists and chopping hands off for thievery, after all.
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Surely the desire for vengeance would be surpressed a little if sentences were proper? Maybe it’s just me.
 
Stookie said:
Surely the desire for vengeance would be surpressed a little if sentences were proper? Maybe it’s just me.
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The justice system is not about revenge, it’s about punishment and rehabilitation. Or at least it’s supposed to be. And I really don’t follow the logic of prison lessening anger or a need for revenge. Even the act of revenge doesn’t lessen anger.
 
Stookie said:
Surely the desire for vengeance would be surpressed a little if sentences were proper? Maybe it’s just me.
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What feels proper to one maybe excessive or lenient to another.

On the matter of these Islamists, I think national laws are inadequate to some extents. What is needed is an international tribunal with witness testimonies from the victims like Syrian civilian or Yazidi people, not only to punish these scums but also to lay bare their monstrosity once and for all, and hopefully some day the same process will be applied to Western leaders, the Kissinger, Bush and Blair of the world.
 
Reddy Rederson said:
The justice system is not about revenge, it’s about punishment and rehabilitation. Or at least it’s supposed to be. And I really don’t follow the logic of prison lessening anger or a need for revenge. Even the act of revenge doesn’t lessen anger.
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Agree 100%, it’s about punishment. However, when that punishment is very lenient then you can see why people would want vengeance or revenge.
 
Stookie said:
You’re preaching to the wrong person here. I’m pretty sure if a member of your family was murdered you’d want life to mean life. Not life and then get out in 10 years. I’m saying sentences in the Uk. are incredibly soft.
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That's called bias, and that's why the legal system makes decisions and not the victims families. I know people who would want life if they got struck by a car in the street. People are unreasonable, so your example isn't relevant.
 
Zarlak said:
Well if she's prosecuted she'll face the legal system, which the whole focus of is rehabilitation. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't but it's the correct thing to do. How do you stop a murderer from killing again once they're released? The long and short is that you can't, you just trust in the legal system and deal with hypotheticals as and when they occur.
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Rehabilitation?

Name one terrorist that fully regrets what he's doing.
 
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