Come on Mozza, give it a rest. The Labour Party is commiting political suicide with this antisemitism, its not some grand conspiracy.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
The point in letting the victim determine if the incident was racist or not is because the alternative, letting an institution decide, opens the door to institutional racism. This was one of the macpherson recommendations. So while in a narrow sense its about making sure the police record hate crimes properly, the rationale behind that is not to just have more accurate statistics, its an anti-racist measure.
So there's a secretive Jewish cabal operating the media, then, in your view?
Doesn't matter if there was no racism within the labour party, they'll still be attacked until their policy on Palestine changes
Zionist cabal, and it isn't even secrative
Ok, I mean, as strategies go responding to claims of antisemitism by deploying an age old anti-semitic trope is... well, it's brave, I'll give you that.
It must be a kick in the teeth for the genuine Corbynistas on this forum putting reasoned arguments to see one of their ranks responding like that, undermining everything they have said.
Sure but it's not the same as the principle you were talking about. I'm not sure when MacPherson changed from "record it as a racist incident if anyone says it is" to "the mainstream representatives of a minority have the final word on what is and isn't racist".
What we've now ended up with is a world where Jewish people are being labeled as anti-Semitic for certain criticisms of Israel or defending the right to free speech but it's seemingly fine to call these people "self hating Jews".
Which will do little damage compared to the self inflicted wound on their foot.
I am perfectly capable of separating Judaism from Zionism. I don't give a shit of you're Jewish, I won't hate you for it. I do give a shit if you're a Zionist, I will hate you for it
We both know Macpherson had a vast cultural impact and was not limited to recording crimes.
And it isn't about who gets the final word. Its about the best way to begin a process. The principle here is about accepting people at face value and going from there, not making judgements about whether they're right or wrong up front. Because those judgements can be skewed by underlying prejudice, which in turn skews the subsequent process against the person already prejudiced against. That applies as much to two people talking as it does to an institution.
Remember, this princple applies to everyone. If you're Jewish & are being labelled a "self hating Jew" for your views, you're facing discrimination. If you then raise those concerns in any forum, the presumption should be that the discrimination is taken at face value in good faith and explored, you shouldnt have someone dismissing you out of hand simply because you're not in the majority.
Mozza, let's be quite clear on this, are you anti-semitic? The majority of your posts indicate that this is the case, rightly or wrongly.
One of the main issues with the anti-Israel lobby is that, if you are anti-semitic you will be anti-Israel. It is possible to be anti-Israel, or shall we say critical of the Israeli Government's policies, without being anti-semitc, but the vast majority of those who climb on the anti-Israel band wagon are anti-semitic first and foremost.
One of the main issues with the anti-Israel lobby is that, if you are anti-semitic you will be anti-Israel. It is possible to be anti-Israel, or shall we say critical of the Israeli Government's policies, without being anti-semitc, but the vast majority of those who climb on the anti-Israel band wagon are anti-semitic first and foremost.
They could sit quietly in a room and say nothing, as long as the policy on Palestine doesn't change, the attacks will keep coming
I don't care what race or creed you are, what your sexuality is, or how you want to live. It matters only that their is equality under the law
Nonsense, antisemite Victor Orban is pro Israel. Christian evangelicals are pro-Israel because they want all Jews in one place to bring about the 2nd coming of christ before they'll all be converted or die, aka ethnic cleansing. Your post demonstrates you haven't got a clue
That's not what adoption of IHRA is achieving though. It's being treated as the be all and end all of what is and isn't anti Semitic. I saw a guy get called a self hating Jew on good morning Britain the other day and not a peep about it.
I find your posting style on this matter very uncomfortable.
The vast majority of those who oppose Israel are antisemitic? Ffs
The two definitely can get muddled, but given that the conflict essentially turns on Israel being an ethnostate (Ashkenazi Jews with essentially no middle-eastern heritage have right of return, but Palestinians displaced in living memory do not [and in fact IHRA defines supporting their right of return as anti-Semitic - because that would dilute Israel’s status as a *Jewish* state]) criticism of such a state is very easily portrayed as antisemitic.
For instance it’s just a fact that Israel has far more influence, far greater financial means, far more of a lobby, than Palestine. Palestine doesn’t even have embassies. Pointing this out isn’t antisemitic, even though it might be portrayed as similar to tropes about “Jewish control”
Good. I've stopped fearing being called antisemitic so now I can call out Israel and its supporters for their racism
And this is where you lose all credibility.
It is the most classic deflective tactic for Israel to hide behind anti-Semitism – As other groups hide behind sexism, racism, Islamophobia etc. when there are legitimate criticisms made. It would be an understatement to say there are legitimate criticisms of Israel. Their occupation of the West bank, their construction of the “safety barrier” have all been declared violations of international law by the ICJ and 144 states adopted a resolution calling for Israel to cease their gross exploitation of the Palestinians. I suppose the “vast majority” of these states were anti-Semitic?
On top of the alleged war crimes, the stolen property, the murdered children – Israel has become such a toxic issue in Western politics, particularly in the US where any semblance of criticism is rare and where GOP races devolve into a pro-Israeli dick measuring contest with no regard whatsoever for their breaches of international law or the suffering of the Palestinians. This is where the criticism of Israel stems from, the fact that anti-Semites inevitably jump on board shouldn’t undermine it’s legitimacy.
As for Corbyn – the media have been trying to slander him every which way possible so while the anti-Semitism isn’t exactly made up, it’s certainly going to be overblown. As are his IRA links, his communist links, his Czech secret police links etc. Almost like there’s quite an incentive for huge media conglomerates to undermine a socialist.
Claims like that need sources, Colin.
And it is a classic deflective tactic for anti-semites to hide behind criticism of Israel.
Or to be more generous, there appear to be plenty of people whose legitimate criticisms of Israel spillover, or become anti semitic - whether accidentally (because they genuinely believe they are anti-racist and have a blind spot), or by design. Or who want to hold "Jews" accountable for the actions of Israel, which is anti-semitic.
Or maybe his predictably flaccid response to SO MANY ONGOING reports of antisemitism in the labour membership/party/whatever, to the extent that people have quit his party, make Labour look institutionally anti-semitic. Which therefore makes the Labour leader at best weak on anti-semitism, or at worst, some sort of anti-semite himself.
Other way around. Zionists want to make Israel a Jewish matter so making all criticism of the former antisemitism.
Some might. But what about Jews who don't and yet still see Labour as anti semitic?
They are lying to themselves, they don't want to belive that fellow Jews would weaponise antisemitism in such a gross manner, so they go along with the mob
Mozza with his finger on the pulse of the Jewish community.Poll - More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic
"The poll, conducted using Survation’s panel of the GB Jewish population found that 86% of British Jews polled believe that Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic compared to 8% who said he is not and 6% who did not know. The same proportion of respondents believed that there were high levels of anti-Semitism among the Labour Party’s members and elected representatives (4 and 5 on a 1-5 scale where 1 meant low-levels and 5 high-levels)."
(for comparison this recent poll found that 48% of African-Americans considered Donald Trump to be racist, and 83% said he makes them feel "disrespected")
Labour’s Deputy Leader Had Dinner With A Key Strategist Behind A New Centrist Party
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickha...tm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bfsharetwitter
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickha...tm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bfsharetwitter
So there is no problems with anti semitism in labour... It's just those sneaky Jews controling the media...
Still waiting for an answer on this.
Poll - More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic
"The poll, conducted using Survation’s panel of the GB Jewish population found that 86% of British Jews polled believe that Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic compared to 8% who said he is not and 6% who did not know. The same proportion of respondents believed that there were high levels of anti-Semitism among the Labour Party’s members and elected representatives (4 and 5 on a 1-5 scale where 1 meant low-levels and 5 high-levels)."
(for comparison this recent poll found that 48% of African-Americans considered Donald Trump to be racist, and 83% said he makes them feel "disrespected")
Like I said, they are lying to themselves, better to think Corbyns problem is antisemitism rather then the behaviour of Israel
Not to the extent that requires the level of anguish it is generating
The antisemitism issue is an “operation” launched by a “Zionist cabal” who control the media, and rather than face the reality of the nature of their “fellow Jews” a vast majority of British Jews have instead chosen to “lie to themselves” about all this.
Imagine if this shite was peddled about any other minority on the Cafe?
Imagine if this shite was peddled about any other minority on the Cafe?
And you don't think there's anything at all problematic about dismissing the view of a group who have been historically discriminated against en masse when they are arguing that they are currently being discriminated against? Or that this isn't the exact sort of excuse anti-Semitic groups have always used when accused of anti-semitism?
The views of racist supporters of apartheid Israel can be dismissed
Plenty of groups - whether national, ethnic or otherwise - will often hold views we perhaps find problematic or which sometimes clash with our own values. That doesn't mean we dismiss claims of discrimination against said groups, especially when said group has an extensive history of being discriminated against. Plenty of Israeli voices have condemned Israeli attitudes towards Palestine - I'm willing to be proven wrong but I don't doubt some of them have also called out Labour's anti-semitism as well.
Muslims have a great time on this forum
Condemnation is all well and good but Israelis continue to vote in ever more vicious and racist government. Actions speak louder than words
I think you're making connections that might not be there. Look at the India Pakistan thread for one.
And that's again a separate issue from anti-semitism. It's not as if everyone in Israel supports the current government.
The mojority do. Also you say current government as if there has been in times past an Israeli government that treated Palestinians like they were equals