Religion, what's the point?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well when you can’t produce or cite any evidence, yet still believe, what’s the difference?
McUnited said:
Oh yes, use a definition from an author who renounced his atheism
We can argue all we want over definitions and who’s definition is correct. You say I spoke with authority on the definition. I didn’t. I spoke with authority on the structure of the word. Theism is a belief in god. The “a” prefix means not or without. It’s really simple. Atheism essentially means a lack of a belief in god.
You can quote all the atheists you like who say that it is a firm denial that any god exists and some atheists do consider it that and that’s fine. But the word simply means without a belief in god, whether you like it or not.
There is no claim, no burden of proof. It’s simply not believing in something that others do.
You claim there is a god. I reject this claim, and furthermore I find that it is a truly unbelievable claim given that there has been no evidence ever presented to suggest otherwise.
Now there may have been something that created everything in the beginning, I don't know. But as it stands I don't believe that there is, and I especially don't believe that there is some personal god like Christians believe.
I know you're busy at work and all, but I'm waiting for the context that you're going to provide. In case you have forgotten the verses I will leave them below.
I'm really looking forward to your explanations.
Then once you've given the right context for those verses would you mind explaining how it is that you have come to know what god really meant? Did he tell you directly?
And then would you be so kind as to explain why the authors didn't get it right in the first place? Why not speak plainly so that we don't need to have the 'context' explained to the lay person.
It's all rather convoluted. I would have thought that the god that knows everything would have perhaps realised that this whole exercise would seem rather embarrassing to us doubters and atheists. But apparently not.
I'm really looking forward to your explanations.
No. 1: St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)
No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
No. 11: God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him: 1st Samuel 6:19 in the King James Version: “And he smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men (50,070)”. Kill 50 000 men for looking at something?
No. 12: You can kill a woman if she seizes a man's private parts without his permission: Deuteronomy 25:11-1: If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
No. 13: Perversity and human trafficking condoned: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)
No. 14: Sex slavery condoned: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." Exodus 21: 7-8
No. 15: . Divorce akin to debauchery: "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)
No. 16: Cannibalism: "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son...." (II Kings 6:28-29)
No. 17: If your genitals have been damaged, stay out of church: "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)
No. 18: Incest and getting drunk with dad is no problem if the world is running thin on suitable DNA donors: And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. Genesis 19:31-36]
No. 19: Looking at a woman with desire is akin to adultery: "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)
No. 20: But incestuous rape is cool: And when she had presented him the meat, he took hold of her, and said: Come lie with me, my sister. She answered him: Do not so, my brother, do not force me: for no such thing must be done in Israel. Do not thou this folly. [II Kings 13:8-12] But he would not hearken to her prayers, but being stronger overpowered her and lay with her. [II Kings 13:14]
No. 21: Pray in private, and if you do so in church, do so quietly: Matt 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others."
No. 23: God smites women, children and often animals with equal gusto, he seems to equal evil and wrong doing by association, rather than by being guilty of the personal, individual act:
"Behold with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." (II Chronicles 21:14-15)
No. 24: . Rev 21: 8
"liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Eternal damnation for lying? In South Africa murderers and rapists often get released for good behaviur, lying is politics.
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)
No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
No. 11: God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him: 1st Samuel 6:19 in the King James Version: “And he smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men (50,070)”. Kill 50 000 men for looking at something?
No. 12: You can kill a woman if she seizes a man's private parts without his permission: Deuteronomy 25:11-1: If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
No. 13: Perversity and human trafficking condoned: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)
No. 14: Sex slavery condoned: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." Exodus 21: 7-8
No. 15: . Divorce akin to debauchery: "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:18)
No. 16: Cannibalism: "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son...." (II Kings 6:28-29)
No. 17: If your genitals have been damaged, stay out of church: "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)
No. 18: Incest and getting drunk with dad is no problem if the world is running thin on suitable DNA donors: And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. Genesis 19:31-36]
No. 19: Looking at a woman with desire is akin to adultery: "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)
No. 20: But incestuous rape is cool: And when she had presented him the meat, he took hold of her, and said: Come lie with me, my sister. She answered him: Do not so, my brother, do not force me: for no such thing must be done in Israel. Do not thou this folly. [II Kings 13:8-12] But he would not hearken to her prayers, but being stronger overpowered her and lay with her. [II Kings 13:14]
No. 21: Pray in private, and if you do so in church, do so quietly: Matt 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others."
No. 23: God smites women, children and often animals with equal gusto, he seems to equal evil and wrong doing by association, rather than by being guilty of the personal, individual act:
"Behold with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." (II Chronicles 21:14-15)
No. 24: . Rev 21: 8
"liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Eternal damnation for lying? In South Africa murderers and rapists often get released for good behaviur, lying is politics.
Then once you've given the right context for those verses would you mind explaining how it is that you have come to know what god really meant? Did he tell you directly?
And then would you be so kind as to explain why the authors didn't get it right in the first place? Why not speak plainly so that we don't need to have the 'context' explained to the lay person.
It's all rather convoluted. I would have thought that the god that knows everything would have perhaps realised that this whole exercise would seem rather embarrassing to us doubters and atheists. But apparently not.
I'm only new to the thread so I'm unfamiliar with McUnited's full position on things, but there's a couple of things I'd like to point out from the above.
Firstly, it's more precise to say that a believer believes in God, as opposed to claims there is a God. That may seem a trifling distinction but it's an important one. Secondly, many people in this sort of debate mistake the terms 'evidence' and 'proof'. The former exists, the latter does not.
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No, the atheist position is not to say there is no God because that would be impossible to prove (unlike Christianity who are happy to adamantly insist that there is a God without any proof, fight wars over it, kill people over it etc) but that there simply isn't any evidence at this moment to support the notion of there being a God. If that evidence were to come to light and it was actually irrefutable, I doubt you'd find many atheists left still denying it but until that time, it's reasonable to say 'given that there is zero actual evidence to support it, it's reasonable not to believe it.'
Perhaps it's something we haven't discovered yet. Like alien civilizations.... doesn't mean it can't be true.
If we discovered the existence of some entity that created the earth and all life on it... It would be an alien by definition, we wouldn't call it God, we'd call it E.T.
Evidence of god exists?
There is no evidence at all, let alone proof.
We live in a world where if one individual claims to be jesus, he's considered a mad man... yet we believe in scriptures, written and modified over thousands of years about an individual who was considered a mad man and sentenced to death for his crimes...
If im being honest, religion was a fairy tale developed by individuals to profit of the ignorant and uneducated, while attempting to provide them the falsity that for all the hardship they have to face in this life, there is some reward at the end.
So while we enslave you and rape and pillage all that you own, fear not for there is this magical kingdom for a time when you're no longer able to fund our extravagant life styles.
If im being honest, religion was a fairy tale developed by individuals to profit of the ignorant and uneducated, while attempting to provide them the falsity that for all the hardship they have to face in this life, there is some reward at the end.
So while we enslave you and rape and pillage all that you own, fear not for there is this magical kingdom for a time when you're no longer able to fund our extravagant life styles.
Yes indeed.
There is no coincidence that the most fervently religious places and people on the planet are also generally the least educated and most desperate - this is across all religions.
I have a former friend who is part of a cult where some nut case proclaims to be jesus christ and is currently on his second "Mary" after the first one stopped being attractive one might assume. Yet people lap this shit up. My mate was vulnerable. He came from a life of drug and alcohol abuse and a terrible marriage to a socialite who apparently he caught blowing a well known Australian Italian Actor at a party in Melbourne. Old mate preys on him and takes not only part of his wage, but a portion of his property too.
That's the point, we don't say it can't be true. We say that the evidence doesn't support it. If one day that changes, then great. We don't state it as a fact as the religious do.
Nope, the religious will flat out tell you that there is a God and will assert to you everything that will happen to you if you don't believe in him, rather than any kind of faith. They won't admit that it's faith only, because that would in itself be a concession that it may not actually exist. The Bible itself is supposed to be taken as a book of purported facts.
Poor guy, that's horrible.
Responses will vary from the obvious of Jesus Christ's existence to the abstract of life itself being some sort of religious experience.
The Jesus may or may not have existed. There are no first hand eye witnesses and nothing of note, independently, outside of the bible. The historicity is in question.
There were seemingly several people around the same time that went by the name of Jesus, claiming to be prophets and all. Given that the bible has the Jesus born in multiple places, and at different times it is quite easy to question whether there really was the Jesus of the bible.
But regardless, even if there was, that doesn't in any way prove that there is a god. Let alone one that wants a personal relationship with us.
You would think that if Jesus was the son of God he would have been able to offer a lot more proof then his parlor tricks. Why heal some randoms here and there of their Leprosy, why not educate the people on medicines.
Why would he tell people not to wash their hands? He advised that it's not what you put in your mouth that makes you sick, it's what comes out of it. Surely the son of god would know more than that. Maybe he could have advised them all on the germ theory?
Every time I see this thread, I'm sadly reminded that a large portion of people my age still believe in make-believe because mommy & daddy said so.
I agree when people say humans are confrontation creatures & that we'd always find something new to argue & fight about, but if you were to somehow suck all the religion out of the world, I'm guessing that rate would go way, way down.
I agree when people say humans are confrontation creatures & that we'd always find something new to argue & fight about, but if you were to somehow suck all the religion out of the world, I'm guessing that rate would go way, way down.
Quite right. He has a very strong faith and belief in God and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
What I dislike is when religious people try to persuade me that I am a non believer.
I do believe. I believe in certain values and high standards. I believe in looking after my body and leading a healthy lifestyle.
I do not however believe in a or any Gods. It is perfectly obvious why God's and God fearing, heaven and hell and the rest of religious teaching was invented so as to exert power over the masses, especially when there was no other explanation for certain events.
Now we have scientific explanations for such events and this information is available for the masses to read and understand and make informed decisions.
in terms of the agnostic/atheist distinction, gnosticism and agnosticism are to do with knowledge; theism and atheism to do with belief.
a gnostic would say they know that god exists. an agnostic would say that it is impossible to know.
a theist would say they believe that god exists. an atheist would say that they do not believe that god exists.
most atheists are therefore technically agnostic-atheists. we would agree that it's impossible to know 100% (i mean, it's possible, however unlikely, that god exists outside of the universe and just set the big bang up and let it play out like some sims like computer game in heaven) but we choose not to believe it, mainly because believing in god makes no sense whatsoever, and is not necessary to explain how the universe works.
most religious folk are definitely theists, but not all would be gnostic-theists though. some would at least appreciate that it's impossible to know 100% (agnostic) however choose to believe in god through faith (theist).
a gnostic would say they know that god exists. an agnostic would say that it is impossible to know.
a theist would say they believe that god exists. an atheist would say that they do not believe that god exists.
most atheists are therefore technically agnostic-atheists. we would agree that it's impossible to know 100% (i mean, it's possible, however unlikely, that god exists outside of the universe and just set the big bang up and let it play out like some sims like computer game in heaven) but we choose not to believe it, mainly because believing in god makes no sense whatsoever, and is not necessary to explain how the universe works.
most religious folk are definitely theists, but not all would be gnostic-theists though. some would at least appreciate that it's impossible to know 100% (agnostic) however choose to believe in god through faith (theist).
Buddha existed, too.
Using the existence of religious figures as evidence of god becomes problematic when you take that into account.
Splendid explanation.
It's not seriously in question. That's the issue.
I haven't claimed there is proof.
My issue with religion is the same as with certain types of atheists, believe or don't believe in whatever you want as long as a: it doesn't hurt or cause pain to anyone, and b: you don't try and ram it down my throat.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that you are - I'm just explaining why there are so many questions, and why that even if there was the Jesus of the bible, the Christians still have all their work to do to prove that their god exists.
What do you mean by 'that's the issue?' Do you think more questions should be asked too?
If so, might I suggest you have a look at some of Dr. Richard Carrier's work on YouTube.
I would reckon the existence of civic societies, communal belonging and others based on religion is more of a byproduct as opposed to the real motive. For me, if a religion basically preaches morals like do good to others, live without hurting others, etc, then I don't need a book to understand those things, and neither is a God required for such morals to be cultivated.
The purpose of religion, or spirituality (in the case of traditions which aren't "organized" per se) should be to enlighten us on the nature of reality. What is our nature, what is the nature of this Universe, what is god's nature, what is our purpose, what is god's purpose, what is responsible for suffering etc.
In a way, science answers a lot about the workings of the Universe and ourselves without postulating a purpose. Religion should be able to afford a deeper metaphysical explanation without contradicting scientific principles. Now whether individual religions offer this or not, I suppose their adherents would know better than me. I'm not so disrespectful as to think I'm qualified over practicing people to comment definitively on this, though I have some opinions on certain religions of course.
Jesus existed for sure, but really, if you read his teachings from an Eastern philosophy perspective, he seemed like an intelligent person, but not particularly godlike. Even if he said things like "I'm the way, truth, life", it's quite possible to interpret it in the sense of him being the sole guide of those seeking true knowledge -- such tropes are very common among Eastern gurus. And there is certainly an acceptance that Jesus was talking in metaphors.
The miracles again, whether they happened or not, is not proof of divinity. Magic tricks shouldn't define an all-powerful God, the revealing of true knowledge compatible with logic should.
Not for you but what if others do need a book/God to understand those things? Surely we can live with that.
If they need that kind of book to tell them right from wrong then what they really need is an education.
Yesterdays result was the wrath of God. We were not thankful during our celebrations, rather we became proud.
An education in virtue?
Really? Are all educated people more good, more smart or morally better than the uneducated?
Nonsense.
Are all religious people good and moral?
An education will help steer people towards developing a better understanding of how the world actually works. And with that understanding there is likely to be a better appreciation of how we should act towards one another. It will help people actually think for themselves. This is directly opposed to being told to act certain ways, to have these exact opinions, etc. because god said so.
The human race would not have gone as far as we have, and achieved as much as we have as a collective, had we not worked this out on our own. In order to survive we had to learn to work together. In (very) short - we learned that in order to work together and to live together, and to do that as harmoniously as possible we shouldn't be killing, stealing, etc.
If we are comparing which of the two - a faux holy book, or an education - is better for human kind then I think the answer is pretty obvious.
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Ethics, morals and Religion are all social constructs. Morals and ethics in particular are vague, subjective and change over time based on variety of external factors. And I doubt any kind of moral/ethical education can be commonly rolled out. I grew up in family/society which believed that eating meat was morally wrong. Is this something that can be replicated across? Even discounting the divine aspect of it, Religion mandates a baseline of moral/ethical behaviour that is a form of standardization.
Organized religion on the other hand is just nonsense.
There is no certainty that Jesus existed. There's no direct contemporaneous evidence, only early Christian writings and a dubious reference in Josephus. Not that it actually matters either way in terms of the existence of God.
Edit: Also there's the Tacitus and Seutonius references but they are rather vague and not terribly useful, especially the Seutonius one.
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Agree. There were multiple Jesus's doing the rounds at that time. The Bible even has Jesus being born in multiple locations. There are just far too many inconsistencies.
What you are saying is the argument against the use of a holy book for understanding basic morals. For example, "Thou Shalt Not Kill/Murder" cannot be applied for a convict on death row.
Morals are basic common sense and don't require a religious book. It varies, and we have to use our common sense to understand how to conform to change.
You are aware of how delusional you sound with pithy responses like that? You haven’t proven anything.
Excuse me interjecting but there's no proof to offer. Belief isn't based on proof but faith so you possibly may be expecting too much.
Good point. I began referencing that in my post, then deleted most of it before I sent it.
I have encountered many Southerners who have adamantly discussed the truth of religion, mainly christian figures within, being such because the Babble exists. They have difficulty circling the square of why different versions of the Babble exist if theirs is sacrosanct to them & completely pure & true in their form. They also have difficulty understanding the marketing aspect of their religious tome, causing the different versions.